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Old 2008-10-22, 08:52   Link #21
C.A.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kari-no-sugata View Post
From what I can make out from the scans...

The Amazons say that Luffy has "覇王色" (Haoushoku) Haki. Not sure how best to translate it but the "ha" bit is the same as in "haki". The "shoku" bit normally refers to colours but can be used in other ways, implying a mood or ambiance or something. "supreme king colour" would be one possible literal kanji-for-kanji translation.

The chapter seems to imply that "haoushoku" Haki can be used dominate people mentally - leadership squared, as it were. Boa Hancock has definitely been using/abusing that.

I also found that "覇王竜" (Haouryuu) is an old word to refer to tyrannosaurus rex ("king of the tyrant lizards"). The "haou" kanji are the same (ryuu = dragon).

They also say that only one in "several million" can gain/learn it - the word/phrase used is "身につける" (mi ni tsukeru) which means "to learn" or to "acquire knowledge or ability". This is not an inherent ability.
It makes even more sense now, for Luffy's origin of Haki.

Being a Haou, which literally means a supreme ruler, one who's will dominates over all others, means that Luffy has the highest form of Haki. Haoushoku Haki just means Supreme ruler class/level/type Haki.

This instantly ties to Luffy's dream of being the Pirate King. Everytime he announces that he is the man that will become the Pirate King, people will get shocked, impressed and other stunned expressions. That is where his Haki comes from, his dream.

The other meaning for Haki is ambition. And Luffy who dares take up such a grand ambition, the Pirate King, can only prove that he is one with a Haou class Haki. One that has the will and determination to rise above all.

And remember the number of people who thought that Luffy gives a feeling of Gol D Roger. That is because both Luffy and Roger carried the same 'ki', the same aura, the aura of a Haou, one who dreams to become a ruler.

You can say the moment Luffy acquired this Haki is the first time when he thought of being the Pirate King, his Haki came immediately when he had such a dream. A dream where alot of people want to achieve, but not many have the will and determination to carry on. Luffy is one man who has the will and determination, that makes his Haki, Haou class.

And its exactly because of his grand ambition and charisma, his Haou class Haki influenced the people to go on a journey with him, those people are now the Nakama of the Strawhat Pirates. Luffy's Haki convinced his Nakama that he will help them achieve their dreams, that is the strength of Luffy's will and determination. His Nakama believes in him because he has this grand atmosphere and charisma around him.

I don't know how many of you can understand this, but apparently it has become very clear for me.
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Old 2008-10-22, 09:08   Link #22
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What I wonder then is the application of Haki in objects, such as when one of the Amazon mentioned it when Luffy asked about the Arrow. The possibilities are countless for what it can do when someone applies it to its own body instead of an Object…

Besides that, as with any other series, these abilities that are deem rare within the sotry (once in several million!!!) is just a plot devise to precedent how difficult it is to achieve it (just the fact that the amazon all seem to use it for their arrows debunks this information), so I wont be surprised that from now on Haki will be shown more often than before.


Quote:
I don't know how many of you can understand this, but apparently it has become very clear for me.
Yeah, I sort of thought about that possibility from the moment the connection between Haki and Boa’s ability to make people salivate for her was mentioned.
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Old 2008-10-22, 09:19   Link #23
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You can say Hancock, definitely has Haou class Haki, she just rules effortlessly over all her subjects and drops others to their knees.

And you can even say that Luffy's not just immune to her Mero Mero abilties, but also because their Haki cancels each other out. Meaning, if Luffy fights Hancock, they can only win each other by physical powers, they are each as much an influence as the other. They are both people who are full of themselves and are have extremely strong will that can even bend others' wills.

Unless, Luffy can prove himself to be the ultimate ruler of rulers and even over dominate Hancock.
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Old 2008-10-22, 09:26   Link #24
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Guess this entire arc is based around haki power and how Luffy's gonna react when he realizes it.The thing on Hancock's back is probly haki related too since she can use it and Luffy knowing it.Whatever happens, looks like the kid is strong with the forc.....Haki.
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Old 2008-10-22, 09:28   Link #25
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Anaconda and cobra Zoans? Where have I heard that before...? Oh, wait:


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Originally Posted by marvelB View Post
There're probably different "models" of snake fruits (viper, anaconda, cobra, etc.)

Heh, I called it.


And about Luffy using Haki, here's aohige's translation about the different Haki types, which I got from AP:


Quote:
Originally Posted by aohige
I don't have time translating all the pages, so quickie.

The gorgon sisters use Haki to damage Luffy, and seems to be able to read Luffy's every move with Haki.
They say how most of those that comes from outside can't use Haki, and therefore weak.

When they try to throw down Margaret's statue on the ground, Luffy gets seriously pissed off, releasing his haki to the crowd... knocking several amazoness unconcious, and terrifying the rest.
Apparantly there are diffrent types of haki, and Luffy is that of a color of a great king. Only one in millions have the haki of the king, and Hancock has it too.

Good to see that we've got confirmation of Hancock being a Haki master, as well. Luffy getting a new power-up in this storyline is practically in the bag at this point....



And I must say that for the first time, the CP9 ministory has truly piqued my interest. The next generation of CP9 in training? But what I'm REALLY interested in is finding out who exactly is the person (or people) training the future assassins-to-be. Maybe it's the previous generation of CP9 (y'know, the guys who worked under Spandam's father)...?


Oh, and.... y'know, remember how last thread, people were talking about how Mantra wouldn't be Haki-related? Well, Hancock's sisters using Haki to predict Luffy's attacks sounds awfully similar to Mantra to me....
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Old 2008-10-22, 09:42   Link #26
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Actually what is on Hancock's back is something of shame or hatred that Hancock will never want anyone to see. It has no relation with Haki.

Hancock's Haki comes from her overwhelming beauty and her indulgence in it. She literally thinks she is the Queen of the world because of her beauty and powers. She thinks because she is such a beautiful entity, the whole world must bow towards her. That is her source of Haki.

Hancock is extremely confident of her beauty and from there brings out a great will. She is that beautiful and people are in awe by it, then on top of that, she is extremely proud of her beauty, further exerting her dominance over people who gaze upon her.

Since I'm on the topic of Haki, I'll go over to 'Sakki', which I shall now place both Zoro and Rayleigh under it.

Sakki means 'killing intent', a will to kill and drives fear into others. It is a extreme form of Haki that only makes people fear them. Unlike Haki which rules over people by both getting allies closer to them and enemies further away.

Zoro in the thick of battle invokes his inner Sakki, a will to kill the opponent. And he has Sakki because he wants to protect his Nakama, he kills because that's his job as the First Mate. But of course we know nobody dies in One Piece, but he still drives fear into people that they can get killed.

Rayleigh is the same, as Roger's First Mate. Furthermore his title 'Meiou', normally translated as 'Dark King' actually means/refers to as the 'King of Hell'. Meiou in fact is the Japanese name for 'Hades'.

Rayleigh at his prime must be someone who has killed many, to attain such a title. Or he could be one with such strong Sakki, people just have the fear of death seeing him. He could be the deadliest man in the world, to have such a title.
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Old 2008-10-22, 09:55   Link #27
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Of course, now that we're starting to get more explanations about Haki, it will undoubtedly result in several people debating on which characters has the Haoshoku/king Haki. Even though Shanks is a Yonkou, it's had to say at this point if he has that particular Haki type, but Rayleigh is probably another story. After all, it would certainly fit the "Dark King" moniker....
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Old 2008-10-22, 11:46   Link #28
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Originally Posted by C.A. View Post
Since I'm on the topic of Haki, I'll go over to 'Sakki', which I shall now place both Zoro and Rayleigh under it.
I don’t know, while a strong Sakki can be used as a tool to fight, Sakki is something that everyone’s has. And is something that it can perceived by an experienced fighter, in the case on OP, the person doesn’t need to use Haki for it. So Sakki could fall under something different than Haki (I could be wrong)

Going to this topic, this explains how the Marine got out of Boa’s Haki using the knife, Pain has always been used as a form to get out of strong Sakkis.

Quote:
Originally Posted by marvelB View Post
Oh, and.... y'know, remember how last thread, people were talking about how Mantra wouldn't be Haki-related? Well, Hancock's sisters using Haki to predict Luffy's attacks sounds awfully similar to Mantra to me....
Yeah, basically is the same if you ask me…and People??? Wasn’t me the first one that came up with that??? : p

Well just need to see if the other (Rokushiki) ends up like that, which I thought about it because, if you can do that to an Arrow with Haki, then maybe using Haki to enhance your Physical prowess, is the same thing as doing the Rokushiki.

Quote:
Apparantly there are diffrent types of haki, and Luffy is that of a color of a great king. Only one in millions have the haki of the king, and Hancock has it too.
.
Ohhh now I see what it means by Several millions, I thought it was Haki in general.

The revelation that they are different types of Haki only reminds me of other series (HxH comes into mind) different types of Magical power, but each one has a different use, and usually each person is specialized in a specific one!


I must admit what is happening since the whole Archipelago deal since now, are the most exiting thing in a long time in this series (for me at least..you can note this because I’m actually posting around this Board)
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Old 2008-10-22, 11:46   Link #29
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Well...Kuma seemed to know an awful lot about Luffy (who his father and grandfather are), so, I wouldn't be surprised if Kuma had some specific knowledge concerning the individual Strawhats. While those that he did not know (Chopper and Brooke specifically, but also possibly Sanji (considering the fact that Duval was accused of being Sanji)) will be sent to a random island, but those that he does know of (Robin, Franky, Zoro, and Luffy all have well known backgrounds) might get sent to a personalized island. Additionally, basic info on Nami would put her in a town formally run by Arlong, and Usopp's father is a member of Shanks crew, so they both have a legitimate personalized story that Kuma/the Military could know through simple investigation.

Finally, we have absolutely no idea what Kuma's book does. For all we know, it could be a mini-computer that allows Kuma to access information on the people around him.

---

That being said, Haki really came across as a "Force Persuade" ability in this chapter. What the hell can't this ability do . I certainly hope that Haki does not become a power that allows the user "dominate" any aspect of the world around them.


Yeah Kuma does seem to know alot about Luffy! maybe he sent Luffy to Amazon Lilly to defeat Boa?
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Old 2008-10-22, 12:32   Link #30
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Possible, but I wonder if Kuma really did so much research on the whole crew.
And as a reader, I wouldn't really like it, if every character gets his own ministory, while the main story pauses... this would probably take a year or even longer.

I would prefer it, if Kuma sent the rest of the crew immediately to their ship, with some time delay (of three days) or the like, so that Luffy is the only one to experience something in the meantime... hopefully something which allows him to defeat most of the enemies alone, so that the rest of the crew (especially the non-fighters like Chopper and Nami) doesn't need to fight anymore at all.
@ The Small One: I really wish people would stop calling Nami a non-fighter. It's like saying she's a pacifist. Or a coward like Usopp. And we all well know that she's none of those things. And may I remind you that no one on Sabaody Archipeligo even the Rosy Life Riders who are gaurding the Thousand Sunny at the time has seen the crew since their disappearance. If Kuma REALLY sent the crew to their ship even with the time delay, the Rosy Life Riders wouldn't be gaurding that ship in the first place.

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Old 2008-10-22, 12:44   Link #31
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'Course, the fact that both Luffy and Hancock both share the same Haki type may be another hint that the two of them are related.



And back to the CP9 ministory.... it's hard to tell from the quality of the spoiler pic, but I think one of those kids has a zipper-mouth like Fukurou. I also like the designs of the fat kid (his hair sorta reminds me of Wanze) and the skinny kid behind him.


And... is it just me, or do one of those kids look kinda like Spandam....?


Quote:
Originally Posted by The Small One View Post
Except that Mantra was something you are born with (genetic), while Haki seems to be confirmed as something everyone can learn. (While it still poses the question, why there were so few occurences until now, if it's something for everyone...)

I'm pretty sure that it's been implied that Haki in general is uncommon. Again, I point to aohige's summary:


Quote:
Originally Posted by aohige
The gorgon sisters use Haki to damage Luffy, and seems to be able to read Luffy's every move with Haki.
They say how most of those that comes from outside can't use Haki, and therefore weak.


Prior to Amazon Lily, the only people we've actually seen use using Haki are legendary pirates like Shanks and Rayleigh. The most likely reason why all the Kuja are familiar with Haki is because they all live in a remote island in the Calm Belt. Remember, not many of them had contact with the outside world, which may also be the reason why they seem so unfamiliar with Devil Fruits....

Last edited by marvelB; 2008-10-22 at 12:59.
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Old 2008-10-22, 14:07   Link #32
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Originally Posted by marvelB View Post
which may also be the reason why they seem so unfamiliar with Devil Fruits....
And Men....

Either way, Been born with the ability of Mantra doesn’t necessarily means it is no Haki, for instance, Luffy could had been using Haki all his life without knowing it. So its possible that People that used Mantra were using Haki and thanks to their isolated nature refer to it as Mantra and thought of it as a genetic ability and not something that can be learned.

This is because story wise, it would be strange that the author creates two abilities that do exactly the same, but are not the same ability. (and more when Oda is very creative when it comes to abilities)
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Old 2008-10-22, 15:17   Link #33
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Originally Posted by Rurik View Post
And Men....

Either way, Been born with the ability of Mantra doesn’t necessarily means it is no Haki, for instance, Luffy could had been using Haki all his life without knowing it. So its possible that People that used Mantra were using Haki and thanks to their isolated nature refer to it as Mantra and thought of it as a genetic ability and not something that can be learned.

This is because story wise, it would be strange that the author creates two abilities that do exactly the same, but are not the same ability. (and more when Oda is very creative when it comes to abilities)
It is also possible that Shakki, Haki, and Mantra are all parts of the greater Mystical Shounen Power that One Piece subscribs to. Specifically, Shakki could be the purely offensive form of the power (used only to create fear in the opponent and consequently have the ability to harm the opponent), with Mantra the purely defensive (to have the ability to know everything about the opponent), and Haki the combination of offense and defense (to control the opponent).
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Old 2008-10-22, 16:54   Link #34
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The point is, that an ability, that can be learnt by anyone, shouldn't really stay uncommon, since everyone, who has seen someone use the ability and the benefits from it, would try start learning it, making it common in very little time.
Ignorance is a Bliss, If you don’t know this ability exist, then it would stay uncommon, if only a select few born under specific physical conditions can learn it, then it is uncommon, if it is an ability that have been controlled by the world government then it would be uncommon.

Note that the only user of this ability has been people who have reached the new world, some Government Agents and The Amazons (which in my mind is Skipia on soil). My guess is that once Strawhats reach the New World, the ratio of people using Haki is going to be as recurrent at those who use DF (if my memory is not betraying me, DF were considered rare at the beginning of the show)




Quote:
I think the Sky People should have a lot of experience concerning Mantra, and if they say, that it is something which can't be learned, then they should be right.
That just the living in a box mentality, for all the experience they have, that doesn’t mean that they are going to try anything that goes outside their thinking (even more a place in Skipia where they have a strong sense of obedience), if Luffy has been using his haki unconsciously since birth, then we have our first Parallel with Mantra, been that, Having the ability since Birth.

And if you add this to any level of difficulty one person my have in learning to use Haki (because of what I say before) then the simple conclusion for a group of people that have observed this in a isolated place, “You need to be born with it to be able to use it”

The fact that Boa’s sister are using an ability that is basically the same as Mantra, and that Luffy could had been born with Haki talks about an scary similarities between both abilities.

Now I ask you, if a person in Skipia is not born with the ability of Mantra, but trough his lifetime learns the Same ability as the Boa’s sister, what the people in Skipia are going to call it, Mantra or Haki? Or If a Person is born in the Amazon Lili with the same ability from those we saw in Skipia, what are they going to call that Mantra or Haki?




Quote:
Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
It is also possible that Shakki, Haki, and Mantra are all parts of the greater Mystical Shounen Power that One Piece subscribs to. Specifically, Shakki could be the purely offensive form of the power (used only to create fear in the opponent and consequently have the ability to harm the opponent), with Mantra the purely defensive (to have the ability to know everything about the opponent), and Haki the combination of offense and defense (to control the opponent).
The problem here could be with Haki and Mantra, if they both are part of a greater power, then you have unnecessary redundancy, why have something named Mantra, when you have inside Haki something that does the same?

Unless you observe some difference in the way it needs to be used and how they are applied in general I could understand, but if both of them need the same type of effort to be performed and both of them do exactly the same, then they are the same thing. Regardless if you are born with it, or you learned it thought your lifetime.

Of course Im very strict with facts, for know Im considering that Mantra and Haki are 2 different things, but I do have my Theory about the conection between those two...
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Old 2008-10-22, 18:14   Link #35
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Originally Posted by The Small One View Post
The point is, that an ability, that can be learnt by anyone, shouldn't really stay uncommon, since everyone, who has seen someone use the ability and the benefits from it, would try start learning it, making it common in very little time.


I think the point Oda is making about Haki is that it is an ability that cannot be learned by just anyone. Hancock's sisters say that very few people outside of Amazon Lily are able to use Haki at all, let alone the even more rare "Haou" Haki, which is only possessed by one in several million. And it makes sense because again, we've seen very few people use Haki prior to Amazon Lily, and the people in question turned out to be legends....


So at this point, it may be best to assume that Haki can't be used by any average schmuck. Like C.A. has been saying, it looks like Haki is something that requires a very strong will or ambition to be used properly.... not something that everyone will have, in other words.
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Old 2008-10-23, 03:38   Link #36
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I get the concept of Haki very clearly now, thanks to C.A and some help from MarvelB too. I guess then even Sanji and Franky might be using Haki without realising it. Even though theirs is quite un-developed and has appeared only in short leaks.

Even though Zoro is unaware of his Sakki (Haki) it is so strong that people all around him feel it. Is that right? In that case, wouldn't Asura be a haki based attack? Intimidating the opponent so much that you appear to be a three headed, six armed deity ..
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Old 2008-10-23, 08:50   Link #37
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BUT, if someone on Skipia is born without Mantra, and learns it during his life, then it's an unusual event, which everybody would talk about, and in the consequence, everybody would know, that Mantra can be learnt, even if you aren't born with it.
But it will still be called Mantra, the consequence are another thing…heck, We know so little about the History of Skipia that we really don’t know if this abnormalities have happen before, I mean, If Luffy has been using Haki unconsciously all his life, Why this have not happen in Skipia? The fact is we don’t know.

Quote:
You have to consider, that the Sky-People have hundreds or thousands of years of experience concerning Mantra, and therefore they should know for sure if it's inherent or learnable.

Like I said before, the problem is the living in a Box mentality, it doesn’t matter how many year of experience you might have, the only thing is to try something different to what you are used to see and do. and based on their beliefs, just for the notion that they believe that this is an ability you need to be born with, is enough to stop them from knowing the complete truth.


Besides that the ability itself is uncommon and maybe even difficult to learn unless you go trought someone that can teach you that, nopt to mention that maybe some could not even learn that.

The fact that they were experienced in Mantra doesn’t exclude them from not knowing everything about it, they only could be ignorant on the matter and that’s it.

At the end, the main problem here is the simple reason that Oda has introduced an Ability that do exactly the Same as another Ability he has used before in this series ( And I’m sure as hell that he is aware of this), and the only difference between those two is how they are called, any other difference used, like what the people in Skipia belive, is moot.
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Old 2008-10-23, 10:52   Link #38
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I get the concept of Haki very clearly now, thanks to C.A and some help from MarvelB too. I guess then even Sanji and Franky might be using Haki without realising it. Even though theirs is quite un-developed and has appeared only in short leaks.

Even though Zoro is unaware of his Sakki (Haki) it is so strong that people all around him feel it. Is that right? In that case, wouldn't Asura be a haki based attack? Intimidating the opponent so much that you appear to be a three headed, six armed deity ..
I think, yes from just this post I can see that you've indeed understood much of Haki, at least the way I theorised.

Sanji indeed has shown that he has Haki in lesser amounts, one particular event is when he was trashing Absolom. His will to let Absolom feel his wrath because of what he was going to do to Nami, is indeed something very likely to a burst of his Haki. His Haki should then come from his gentlemanly instincts, his will to protect the ladies that he absolutely adore and of course his Nakama. As stated, Diable Jambe may injure Sanji, but he recovers from those shocks because his 'heart burns even hotter'. This could be his will over his physical pain and injury, he puts his Nakama over himself, willing to go beyond limits, that may be his Haki at work.

For Franky, I'm so sure if he has directly demonstrated Haki, I can't seem to remember much of anything that might show that he has Haki.
----------

For Zoro's Sakki again. I'd like to reference Ryu from Street Fighter. Ryu is a very powerful martial artist whose strength comes from his heart(again you can back reference to Sanji) and because of that he has extremely powerful Haki. But Ryu has something that's bugging him, a pent up rage, a rage to avenge his Master, who was killed by Gouki(Akuma). Akuma saw that Ryu's power of his heart has extremely high potential, but Ryu cannot put that potential to full use because he doesn't fight with an instinct to kill. Ryu will never put enough force to kill one, meaning he will never use his full potential.

Gouki the power hungry demon, who wants to see power and wants ever stronger opponents, see that Ryu could be that opponent that he longed for. He intended to use Ryu's hatred for him to convert his entire Haki into Sakki, to fully release his potential. He was able to do that because the only one true person that Ryu wants to kill is Gouki himself. Yes he did manage to do that and the result is Evil Ryu. But the story doesn't end here, Evil Ryu manages to return back to the good Ryu. This is again because of his heart, he overcomes his own killing instinct by ridding the impure pent-up rage in him. His own Haki overpowering his Sakki, making Gouki even more impressed with Ryu. Ryu managed to show Gouki a power stronger than even pure Sakki.

This is an example of how Haki and Sakki is interchangeable and is related.

Also you see that Luffy's Haoushoko Haki, which literally means Supreme King Coloured Haki, I call it Haou class Haki. Why is it coloured for class?

In Street Fighter again, Haki is classed by the strength and potential of the Haki each fighter has. And those who practice on Haki based martial arts can actually see the Haki aura of each person(kinda like Soul Eater and seeing souls).

Each class of Haki emits a different colour and Sakki itself a unique colour. You can say that its traditional to class Haki by colours. And Sakki is just one of the colours of the varying wavelength, like Haou class Haki is also one.
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Old 2008-10-23, 14:34   Link #39
Captain Roronoa Zoro
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any1 else think tht boa hancock looks like the main actress from the mask of zoro?? idk her name
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Old 2008-10-23, 14:42   Link #40
Rainbowman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by C.A. View Post
Also you see that Luffy's Haoushoko Haki, which literally means Supreme King Coloured Haki, I call it Haou class Haki. Why is it coloured for class?

In Street Fighter again, Haki is classed by the strength and potential of the Haki each fighter has. And those who practice on Haki based martial arts can actually see the Haki aura of each person(kinda like Soul Eater and seeing souls).

Each class of Haki emits a different colour and Sakki itself a unique colour. You can say that its traditional to class Haki by colours. And Sakki is just one of the colours of the varying wavelength, like Haou class Haki is also one.
What's the deal with Haki colours? How many colours are there to Haki and what colours are there? While we're on the discussion of Haki, (which BTW there's a thread made to discuss that particular subject) I've been thinking, does Nami have Haki? Reason I asked is that Haki is supposed to have an effect on Devil Fruit users as Sentoumaru said when he was fighting Luffy. And Nami has been able to physically hurt Luffy despite the fact he's a rubber man. The only other character to hurt Luffy is his grandfather Monkey D. Garp.
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