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Old 2009-06-19, 01:07   Link #281
revan5
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So any takers on who dies first, Alicia or Riful? I got Riful pegged if only because she's going to be intervening most likely with the new "Raciella".

But then again, Alicia is blindly targeting them, so in all likelihood Riful may just try to avoid the fight like she did with Isley (maybe they'll send the Abyss Feeders after her to keep her/Dauf occupied while Alicia goes for the new target, eh?).

I find it just as hard as Shiek to believe the Abyss Feeders won't be of some use to the Org in the coming fight, considering the opposition.
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Old 2009-06-19, 01:32   Link #282
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So any takers on who dies first, Alicia or Riful? I got Riful pegged if only because she's going to be intervening most likely with the new "Raciella".

But then again, Alicia is blindly targeting them, so in all likelihood Riful may just try to avoid the fight like she did with Isley (maybe they'll send the Abyss Feeders after her to keep her/Dauf occupied while Alicia goes for the new target, eh?).

I find it just as hard as Shiek to believe the Abyss Feeders won't be of some use to the Org in the coming fight, considering the opposition.
Well, it's like I said, their's no reason for them NOT to help Alicia fight Riful; they've definitely got the element of surprise, and the skills acquired from fighting Isley will make them, together, almost a second Abyssal One.

But if the Organization says their only guides, their only guides. Control is what they care about most, and what they say is what goes. Incredibly stupid on their part, but that's what they said.

I believe Alicia will die first; partially because of all her weaknesses, partially because I like Riful more, and partially because the Organization need a major loss after Isley's defeat. After that huge victory, they're technically winning this war which amazes me. But like I wrote in my loooong theory, Riful isn't gonna last much longer regardless, at least not in my opinion.

Not that I wouldn't mind seeing more of her, but I've had the feeling her death is nigh for a long while now.
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Old 2009-06-19, 06:23   Link #283
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Originally Posted by Shiek927 View Post
the Organization need a major loss after Isley's defeat. After that huge victory, they're technically winning this war which amazes me. But like I wrote in my loooong theory, Riful isn't gonna last much longer regardless, at least not in my opinion.
I don't see that huge victory you're talking about. It's not that they would benefit that much from Isley's death. Ok, it was the AFs that killed him, ok, the AFs might be trained to go for Riful. Ok, they might be the crucial help Alicia needs tro get her down.Ok, the AFs might even eventually go for the ghosts if they work on it in the future.

But look at it from the Orgs inital goals: They want to creat their perfect soldier. The AFs, frightening and effective as they may be, are not that soldier. Yeah they can bring down something like Isley. But they are basically 'zombies'. hive mind or not, limited learning or not, they cannot possibly be a viable option for warriors for the fight on the mainland. They are not independent, intelligent, inventive enough. Which points to the real reason for why the org created the feeders:

because they were already loosing control and power in the first place! Before, they created warriors, or weapons according to their test program. Now, with the feeders, for the first time they specifically have to create a weapon to deal with nothing but their own mistakes, the AOs. That says something about their position in all this doesn't it?

And then, there's the organisation's failure with the ghosts. So far, when they lost warriors, they either died, because they were to weak, which was ok for them, or they awakend, thus being lost for the cause, but generating important data as potential enemys for their lab rats, which was also ok as long the balance of power on the island remained stable.

As for that balance of power, my feeling on it is that the Org has been having a totally misplaced sense of superiority and confdence for a long, long time.

As long as the old three powers stayed in their regions, and did not fight each other openly, the org must have had the feeling that they might be able to carefully control that power balance. And since the status quo remained stable for so long they might even have thought that it was due to their scheming in the shadows that it stayed that way. But it wasn't. The org is stretched to far in a conflict between multiple AOs.

All it needed was Priscilla to come along to demonstrate that: In awakening, she eradicated #1-#4. Then she teamed up with Isley, and there we go, the balance is gone and Isley goes for all the power he can get. The org had to sacrifice 50%+ of its claymores, and let Alicia loose on that host of ABs long before she was completed. Which worked out.

But please consider a moment what things might have looked like if Isley had gone for the org, not for luciella. The fact remains, that in that conflict prompted by Isley, the Org only faced the pawns, only the ABs (cept for Rigardo that is, he had some punch ). Had Isley gone for the org, Alicia would have gone down. So in a way they simply were lucky.

Or what might have happend if it weren't miria, claire and co. who met rigardo's host. Any other group of claymores would have gone dowe much earlier, and the host would have moved on south relatively unharmed. Ok perhaps alicia might have delt with that.

But still. If only a few minute details had gone differently, the org would have been in for a major catastrophe already by the time of pieta. Which is, btw, exactly what one of the leading MIBs said himself as far as I remember.

And now, with what the ghosts have achieved in terms of both power and knowledge, they are REALLY in for the deep s*** The fact alone that there is a group of rogue claymores out there that might try to thin out their ranks and start a little revolution is inconventient enough for the org.

But even worse, thanks to the ghosts half-awakened state, another major power from the continent is close to getting involved on the island - AND THE ORG DOESN'T EVEN KNOW YET.

they think they brought down isley, will bring down riful, and have a controllable AO.

but in truth:
They were lucky Isley underestimated them
they underestimate Riful
they overestimate Alicias stability
they negelect the threat through the ghosts
they have a traitor in their ranks


I guess one should wait though how their policy changes once they learn more of the ghosts. Still, they seem afully ill prepared to me in terms of badly needed intelligence on their opponents.
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Old 2009-06-19, 11:44   Link #284
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Well I fully support on what you have said there @heagar, just consider this, the org is definitely very much afraid of an immensely powerful attack from the outside. An attack, that their are sure, would definitely wipe them out completely. Naturally they would do and try everything in their power to prevent it. Thus the feeders and every other contraption, and who knows what is yet to come.
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Old 2009-06-19, 12:19   Link #285
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I called it a victory haeger because they were the ones responsible for beating Isley. They are STILL the weakest force on the island: a generation of nothing but fillers, a few high-digit warriors have met the Organization and will probably rebel sooner or later, the constant losing of such high-class warriors(Miata for one)........All they have really right now that's of any worth is Alicia(who I predict will die soon) and the AE's.
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Old 2009-06-19, 13:57   Link #286
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I called it a victory haeger because they were the ones responsible for beating Isley. They are STILL the weakest force on the island: a generation of nothing but fillers, a few high-digit warriors have met the Organization and will probably rebel sooner or later, the constant losing of such high-class warriors(Miata for one)........All they have really right now that's of any worth is Alicia(who I predict will die soon) and the AE's.
Don't forget Beth's existence Shiek. Alicia may be the one that fights now, but when/if she dies, the Org would still have a claymore with massive fighting ability.

The Org has already lost Nos 4 & 47, so who's next to go? My prediction is Renee will literally run into Cynthia and they'll tell her all sorts of mind-blowing things...after the battle mind you. Kind of hard to have that stuff sink in when you're surrounded by monsters on all sides. Also, this new "Raciella" will need a sword. Where do you go for those? Why, you go north! Plus Renee needs a new sword, so perhaps we'll see an expedition north that'll also encounter the new No 7. I have no doubt whoever she is she's going to be shocked to see their fighting abilities.
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Old 2009-06-19, 14:04   Link #287
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Don't forget Beth's existence Shiek. Alicia may be the one that fights now, but when/if she dies, the Org would still have a claymore with massive fighting ability.

The Org has already lost Nos 4 & 47, so who's next to go? My prediction is Renee will literally run into Cynthia and they'll tell her all sorts of mind-blowing things...after the battle mind you. Kind of hard to have that stuff sink in when you're surrounded by monsters on all sides. Also, this new "Raciella" will need a sword. Where do you go for those? Why, you go north! Plus Renee needs a new sword, so perhaps we'll see an expedition north that'll also encounter the new No 7. I have no doubt whoever she is she's going to be shocked to see their fighting abilities.
Meh, I guess. I only mention Alicia so much because she's the one who awakens. I doubt she's gonna die and Beth will still live, especially when all Beth really does is control Alicia's awakening. If one dies, the other one might as well too.

Yep, Renee is most likely next to rebel. Afterwards, perhaps Audrey, Rachel and the others the Ghosts saw. Perhaps Miria sends out "propaganda" and reveals the Organization's secrets to all across the island: surefire method of starting rebellions.
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Old 2009-06-19, 18:49   Link #288
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Originally Posted by revan5 View Post
Also, this new "Raciella" will need a sword. Where do you go for those? Why, you go north! Plus Renee needs a new sword, so perhaps we'll see an expedition north that'll also encounter the new No 7.
I guess there is some chance of a sword here or there becoming available in the fights to come 0o
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Old 2009-06-21, 22:33   Link #289
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I guess there is some chance of a sword here or there becoming available in the fights to come 0o
So in essence you're predicting that both Beth & Alicia will die, forking their swords over to "Raciella" and Renee respectively huh? Or at least indirectly after Claire figures out what to do with them. One thing's for sure, Renee is unlikely to be considered loyal to the Org if she comes back carrying Alicia or Beth's sword without a really good explanation.
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Old 2009-06-21, 22:56   Link #290
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So in essence you're predicting that both Beth & Alicia will die, forking their swords over to "Raciella" and Renee respectively huh? Or at least indirectly after Claire figures out what to do with them. One thing's for sure, Renee is unlikely to be considered loyal to the Org if she comes back carrying Alicia or Beth's sword without a really good explanation.
Which brings up a question: is there a reason Alicia even has a sword to begin with(if she has one)? Beth, I can understand I suppose in the event that Alicia dies and Beth survives, but the whole purpose of Alicia is for her to fight by awakening and using her scythe-arms. Surely the energy radiated by this faux Abyssal One will be enough to ward off ambushes until she's finished. Why does she need a sword at all?

Wasn't it said that all they know is how to merge their minds through the soul-link? do they even have any normal combat experience?

This brings up one more thing; Say goodbye to "Raciella" . She's likely to get her own name next chapter.
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Old 2009-06-22, 00:06   Link #291
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Which brings up a question: is there a reason Alicia even has a sword to begin with(if she has one)? Beth, I can understand I suppose in the event that Alicia dies and Beth survives, but the whole purpose of Alicia is for her to fight by awakening and using her scythe-arms. Surely the energy radiated by this faux Abyssal One will be enough to ward off ambushes until she's finished. Why does she need a sword at all?

Wasn't it said that all they know is how to merge their minds through the soul-link? do they even have any normal combat experience?

This brings up one more thing; Say goodbye to "Raciella" . She's likely to get her own name next chapter.
I got virtual money and my virtual prestige on it being one of two names: Luciella or Teresa. Oh come on now, surely everyone has an opinion on this matter. You wouldn't think it would matter in terms of the war, but it does.

If the being names itself Luciella, Claire may be in trouble. If Claire gets to name the new being, expect her to name it in honor of the only claymore she grew to love.

So which is it going to be, or do you guys have another opinion?
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Old 2009-06-22, 00:12   Link #292
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I got virtual money and my virtual prestige on it being one of two names: Luciella or Teresa. Oh come on now, surely everyone has an opinion on this matter. You wouldn't think it would matter in terms of the war, but it does.

If the being names itself Luciella, Claire may be in trouble. If Claire gets to name the new being, expect her to name it in honor of the only claymore she grew to love.

So which is it going to be, or do you guys have another opinion?
Well, it would make sense if it was Luciella; After all, as I said in my big theory, Claire is bound to think she is Rafaela at first and this new being is bound to feel connected to her. Hence, It wouldn't surprise me if she retained Big Sister's name.

Teresa....Teresa......

It's not an idea that hasn't been thought of before....who knows. It's not a bad one, and it's not like Teresa is ACTUALLY coming back, and it would only compound the symbolism that much further. Who knows really.

Though I have to say, thinking of actual names...makes me realize how dumb "Raciella" is all things considered
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Old 2009-06-22, 03:40   Link #293
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So in essence you're predicting that both Beth & Alicia will die, forking their swords over to "Raciella" and Renee respectively huh?
No, I'm not predicting that. Although I see a chance for Alicia to get her behind handed to her by Riful/CLare/Raciella, I hope (and more or less believe) she's gonna be around some time more.

I meant "swords" becoming possibly available in the sense of "well in the end, who knows whos gonna die, any of the claymore's even the ghosts around might be in for it"

...since yagi killed of jean and flora it seems I've grown a bit wary ..


as for alicias sword: the org wouldn't want every low ranker who just meets her by chance to wonder "why does #1 have no sword?" besides, I take it even Alicia and Beth might have a kind "normal" yoma killing exercise from time to time? Alicia wouldn't need to awake for that.
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Old 2009-06-22, 11:04   Link #294
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I think Riful and Clare have a love hate relationship, so I don't see them killing each other. Riful wants to torture Clare and make her into her friend and Clare takes advantage of Riful whenever she can.

If Riful lives then the Org might have a big surprise waiting for Miria when she attacks, or the DoD might be showing up.

The Org is in the process of attacking Riful, so if she survives then she most likely will team with the ghost for her survival.
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Old 2009-06-22, 12:54   Link #295
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No, I'm not predicting that. Although I see a chance for Alicia to get her behind handed to her by Riful/CLare/Raciella, I hope (and more or less believe) she's gonna be around some time more.

I meant "swords" becoming possibly available in the sense of "well in the end, who knows whos gonna die, any of the claymore's even the ghosts around might be in for it"

...since yagi killed of jean and flora it seems I've grown a bit wary ..


as for alicias sword: the org wouldn't want every low ranker who just meets her by chance to wonder "why does #1 have no sword?" besides, I take it even Alicia and Beth might have a kind "normal" yoma killing exercise from time to time? Alicia wouldn't need to awake for that.
"Was? Nein!!!!!!" (What? No!!!!! in German)

Actually haegar, what you're proposing is nothing less than a possible alliance (Allianz) between the Ghosts and Riful. Before you protest, let me explain. Riful needs protection from the Organization, and the Ghosts could use her strength in their fight with the Organization.

Perhaps instead of a formal alliance they will merely agree to keep Riful from dying in exchange for her help in destabilizing the Org. Her only way to survival I believe lies in making a deal with Claire/Miria. Shocking, isn't it?
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Old 2009-06-22, 13:13   Link #296
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"Was? Nein!!!!!!" (What? No!!!!! in German)

Actually haegar, what you're proposing is nothing less than a possible alliance (Allianz) between the Ghosts and Riful. Before you protest, let me explain. Riful needs protection from the Organization, and the Ghosts could use her strength in their fight with the Organization.

Perhaps instead of a formal alliance they will merely agree to keep Riful from dying in exchange for her help in destabilizing the Org. Her only way to survival I believe lies in making a deal with Claire/Miria. Shocking, isn't it?
Not at all, in fact, I've proposed the idea several times.

I think it's very clear at this point that both parties need all the help they can get, and no matter how you look at it, An Abyssal One would be an incredible ally. They don't have to like eachother, or even trust eachother, but they need eachother if they plan to survive. It's really a win/win situation. Plus, Riful can finally have her friends

Neverthless, I don't think it's going to happen. Going with the good likelihood that Raciella will join the Ghosts, and considering she's a Super-Abyssal, she more then makes up for it. Nevertheless, an Alliance wouldn't have been a bad idea.
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Old 2009-06-22, 18:42   Link #297
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Not at all, in fact, I've proposed the idea several times.

I think it's very clear at this point that both parties need all the help they can get, and no matter how you look at it, An Abyssal One would be an incredible ally. They don't have to like eachother, or even trust eachother, but they need eachother if they plan to survive. It's really a win/win situation. Plus, Riful can finally have her friends

Neverthless, I don't think it's going to happen. Going with the good likelihood that Raciella will join the Ghosts, and considering she's a Super-Abyssal, she more then makes up for it. Nevertheless, an Alliance wouldn't have been a bad idea.
So, in essence, you're saying Riful is too much of a loner to make friends eh? Or is it the fact that the Ghosts know what Riful does in order to "make friends"? I think trust in such a situation is absolutely essential. Since there is none, Riful will be unable to make allies when she absolutely needs to (since she'll be trapped between a rock (the sisters Alicia/Beth) and a hard place (Claire/Raciella (Super-Abyssal).

My guess is her loner nature will be what gets her killed. I can't imagine the Ghosts leading a revolution if they've got an Abyssal One as a formal/informal ally. Without such an ally a revolution becomes much easier. Imagine if you can trying to convince Renee to join your side, or any claymore for that matter, after making an alliance with Riful! It just doesn't work!
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Old 2009-06-22, 18:56   Link #298
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So, in essence, you're saying Riful is too much of a loser to make friends eh?
there, fixed it for you. No need to thank me.

I can't see this Alliance happening.
First, I'm sure that Clare hasn't forgotten that Riful has the little hobby of torturing people until they give up to their demoniac side and become the very same monster they spent their lifes trying to eradicate from the face of the Earth (also called stabbing Jean with rodes until she Awakened)

And Riful still wants her revenge on Clare.
Besides, Miria wouldn't make a deal with the devil considering the fact that Riful would just backstab them at the first chance.
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Old 2009-06-22, 19:04   Link #299
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there, fixed it for you. No need to thank me.

I can't see this Alliance happening.
First, I'm sure that Clare hasn't forgotten that Riful has the little hobby of torturing people until they give up to their demoniac side and become the very same monster they spent their lifes trying to eradicate from the face of the Earth (also called stabbing Jean with rodes until she Awakened)

And Riful still wants her revenge on Clare.
Besides, Miria wouldn't make a deal with the devil considering the fact that Riful would just backstab them at the first chance.
Riful is honorable, I don't see her backstabbing anyone.
Something would have to bee don about eating people for the alliance to work.
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Old 2009-06-22, 20:17   Link #300
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So, in essence, you're saying Riful is too much of a loner to make friends eh? Or is it the fact that the Ghosts know what Riful does in order to "make friends"? I think trust in such a situation is absolutely essential. Since there is none, Riful will be unable to make allies when she absolutely needs to (since she'll be trapped between a rock (the sisters Alicia/Beth) and a hard place (Claire/Raciella (Super-Abyssal).

My guess is her loner nature will be what gets her killed. I can't imagine the Ghosts leading a revolution if they've got an Abyssal One as a formal/informal ally. Without such an ally a revolution becomes much easier. Imagine if you can trying to convince Renee to join your side, or any claymore for that matter, after making an alliance with Riful! It just doesn't work!
It's not that she's a loner, though perhaps she is underneath; she WANTs friends, or at least allies at her side. She's like the type of stubborn person who wants friends, but is too shy\mean to make a decent effort in trying, not to mention she only wants powerful allies which usually equals the best Awakened. None of the Ghosts are going to awaken for her, none whatsoever. If she is ever gonna have a chance of the Ghosts considering taking her in, she's gotta change her "this is providence" stature that Awakened are supreme, and anything remotely human are worthless. Oh, and she'll have to let go of the ghosts messing with her before.

I can understand trying to get others to your side being more difficult, but it's not impossible. Miria made the negotiations for them to stay in Rabona, so she's at least got a good level of "people-skills". For an alliance to work, both parties need to be aware of the danger of the AE's. The Ghosts are at this point, but not Riful.

Again, like I said, It's not a bad scenario, but it sort of evens out with Raciella in her place joining them, who possesses more power then Riful and doesn't have the reputation. Their are too many problems that I don't think the Ghosts will want to bother trying to sort out, even if it means getting someone like Riful at their side; most of them involving Riful's personality, her reputation, and her crimes of torture.

I agree that Riful wouldn't backstab. MisterJB just says that because he doesn't like her

Nevertheless, I don't believe she would, especially if they have Raciella on their side who is much stronger, to sort of keep her in line. If Riful's one thing, it's not a traitor. She's never really had enough allies by her side to betray anyone! Dauf is as stupid as they come, but she never sacrificed him first chance she got to get somebody better.

No; I repeat myself, she's alot of things, traitor is not one them. That's Isley's department.
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