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Old 2009-10-24, 17:30   Link #721
revan5
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Originally Posted by HegemonKhan View Post
or the destroyer was controlling or possessing rafaela's image...... or it was all a "naruto manga's genjutsu" illusion by the destroyer in the first place.....
Claymore is NOT Naruto, and I think most of us can say we are thankful for that. If you look on mangahelpers Hegie, you'll find that Claymore actually ranks ahead of Naruto and all its various plot devices. I think illusions are entirely in the realm of the mind, which for Claymore lasted all of one chapter.
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Old 2009-10-24, 17:32   Link #722
HegemonKhan
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well, i'm totally confused by the whole scene... so anything can go... until i see some concrete explaination of WTH was actually happening....

i'm ONLY using naruto manga's genjutsu as an anology or metaphor to try to make possible sense of it, cause it can probably familar to people (those who also like naruto) and is well understood.
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Old 2009-10-24, 17:37   Link #723
Awakened
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Wow, some people need to take down those Miria Goddess pictures.

revan5
I was wrong about Miria not deserving her rank 6. The mibs said that she was like a #1 in a group before she got promoted, so she deserves her rank. Forgive me for I have sin.

I know what Deneven said, but I'm going by what I think is right, not by what Deneven said.

Both Clare and Miria are half-awakened, so I was just comparing the two and ignoring everyone els.

Miria new phantom stands no chance against Clare. Miria would need to use yoki to stand a chance against Clare (one on one). If Miria cheats and call for backup, she might be able to win with her new phantom.

We know more about Clare and Miria than Miata. Miata comment only confirmed what we already know. Clare is capable of fighting past her limit, Miria can't dream of doing that.

HegemonKhan
I was wrong about Miria's rank, she deserved it.
I'm glad we still agree that Clare is stronger than Goddess Miria.

MisterJB
Lol, for blindly worshiping Miria, let me start with this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterJB View Post
Flora says hi. Good to know that she is still alive. Where has she been all this time?
The last time I checked, Miria was the Team leader and not Clare. Clare was way down the food-chain. Flora needed to protect Clare.
If you want to blame someone for Flora's dead. Blame Miria for been to weak.
Reminder
Clare saved Miria from the jars of death (Rigaldo).

Let me formally apologize for misquoting the manga, I was just going by memory. You guys/gals are right. Miria deserves her rank and the power gap was between rank 6 to 9, not between 6 to 47.
Quote:
To think that there isn't a huge gap of power between the number 47 and a single digit is completely ridiculous
I was talking about the power gap between each rank from 47 to 6, not the gap between 47 and 6. I misquoted the manga, I'm sorry.

Quote:
Yeah rigth, keep dreaming. We have yet to see the increase on Miria's power after the seven years training and you're already taking conclusions.
Can Miria half-awaken?
Can she even fight at her limit? Ok, maybe she can since Deneven said she can easily go close to her yoki limit.

Quote:
"I will, of course, burst through the front door, killing anything that attacks me and making such a noise that will, without a doubt, alert the Abyssal One of my presence and assure my immediate death and the death of whoever is accompanying me."
Very funny, but this is a huge mischaracterization.
Clare's plan was brilliant. In other to get to Renee, she needed to get Riful out of the way. The best way to do this, is to distract Riful, then use stealth to get to Renee. Riflu immediately transformed into AO form, this prevented Clare from freely moving and it was unexpected, so Clare cannot be held responsible.
She cut off Uma's leg, so that Uma and Cynthia would not be able to accompany her, so that last part is invalid.
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Last edited by Awakened; 2009-10-24 at 17:47.
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Old 2009-10-24, 17:37   Link #724
revan5
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Originally Posted by HegemonKhan View Post
well, i'm totally confused by the whole scene... so anything can go... until i see some concrete explaination of WTH was actually happening....

i'm ONLY using naruto manga's genjutsu as an anology or metaphor to try to make possible sense of it, cause it can probably familar to people (those who also like naruto) and is well understood.
I'll admit it was a strange scene, by Claymore standards. If you want to use the analogy, be my guest.
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Old 2009-10-24, 17:49   Link #725
HegemonKhan
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miria IS a Half Awaken, just like deneve, helen, and clare.

this means that they have all started to awaken (but were able to stop and "pull back" through various means, entirely solo, with motivation, or with help from others).

we only actually see miria and clare as starting to awaken.

deneve and helen just confirm it verbally to miria and through the use of their powers-abilities.

clare is the only one, we actually see what she somewhat awakens into, because she is the only one who went that far (due to rigardo) that is shown in the manga anyways.

miria we only see the very very very beginning of her awakening... in fact we just see her uncontrolled yoki or yoma power release.

maybe in one of these coming chapters, we'll see miria, deneve, and helen 's awakenings or awakened forms.
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Old 2009-10-24, 17:59   Link #726
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HegemonKhan View Post
miria IS a Half Awaken, just like deneve, helen, and clare.

this means that they have all started to awaken (but were able to stop and "pull back" through various means, entirely solo, with motivation, or with help from others).

we only actually see miria and clare as starting to awaken.

deneve and helen just confirm it verbally to miria and through the use of their powers-abilities.

clare is the only one, we actually see what she somewhat awakens into, because she is the only one who went that far (due to rigardo) that is shown in the manga anyways.

miria we only see the very very very beginning of her awakening... in fact we just see her uncontrolled yoki or yoma power release.

maybe in one of these coming chapters, we'll see miria, deneve, and helen 's awakenings or awakened forms.
Even if Miria is able to half-awaken like Clare in the north, Clare will always have the advantage. Clare has way more potential than Miria.
Clare has the potential of a #1.
Miria has the potential of a #6.
There powere will increase if they both half-awaken, but Miria will never be able to compete with a #1 (assuming everything els is equal).
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Old 2009-10-24, 18:00   Link #727
irvinethearcher
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Originally Posted by MisterJB View Post
You think Raphaela would give all of herself to the first person that appeared?

First, you would have to take her out, buy her a drink, kick her ass, etc. THEN...only then you would get everything that Raphaela possessed
Who knows perhaps rafaella simply wanted clare to release her yoki for some unknown reason. Perhaps she needed it in order to do the memory transfer. IMO there is perhaps more to it than simply a honorable keeper of her memories.
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Old 2009-10-24, 18:06   Link #728
HegemonKhan
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Originally Posted by Awakened View Post
Even if Miria is able to half-awaken like Clare in the north, Clare will always have the advantage. Clare has way more potential than Miria.
Clare has the potential of a #1.
Miria has the potential of a #6.
There powere will increase if they both half-awaken, but Miria will never be able to compete with a #1 (assuming everything els is equal).
just a quick comment about miria...

miria WAS originally a rank 17.....

than miria moved to rank 8 on her own growth in power. (miria had rank 1 level leadership-team coordination-team strategy AND her phantom step ability. she would than become a Half Awaken as well due to the death of hilda and ophelia's presence, and end up taking hilda's place at rank 6)

than miria ended up killing (or maybe it was ophelia. can't remember) her friend, hilda rank 6, taking hilda's place at rank 6.

so clearly, miria's power isn't set as a certain official "rank" like most others.

but all the official ranks are meaningless to the ghosts (and galatea, rafaela, irene), since they have at least one of these things that which makes them far more powerful than their rank shows :

1. are Half Awakens
2. have kept their yoki suppressed for a long time
3. have not only kept their yoki suppressed for a long time, but trained without this yoki as well.
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Old 2009-10-24, 18:19   Link #729
irvinethearcher
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Quote:
2. have kept their yoki suppressed for a long time
Do you think suppression makes you gain more yoki? I doubt that. I had a heavy dispute on this a few chapters ago.
After the dispute deneve said when she fastregenerated her arm:
Quote:
I've released my yoki for the first time in seven years. It feels almost as though my yoki is constantly on his maximum limit.
IMO this only means that deneve has gotten stronger in those seven years and has now more yoki or could it be that she has more yoki because she suppressed it?
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Old 2009-10-24, 18:26   Link #730
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HegemonKhan View Post
just a quick comment about miria...

miria WAS originally a rank 17.....

than miria moved to rank 8 on her own growth in power. (miria had rank 1 level leadership-team coordination-team strategy AND her phantom step ability. she would than become a Half Awaken as well due to the death of hilda and ophelia's presence, and end up taking hilda's place at rank 6)

than miria ended up killing (or maybe it was ophelia. can't remember) her friend, hilda rank 6, taking hilda's place at rank 6.

so clearly, miria's power isn't set as a certain official "rank" like most others.

but all the official ranks are meaningless to the ghosts (and galatea, rafaela, irene), since they have at least one of these things that which makes them far more powerful than their rank shows :

1. are Half Awakens
2. have kept their yoki suppressed for a long time
3. have not only kept their yoki suppressed for a long time, but trained without this yoki as well.
I don't disagree with you, but I think Miria would not have moved up pass #6. She said there is a large gap difference between rank 6 and 5. I think that means there is a large yoki difference. No one can go pass there potential. You can get to your potential, but you cannot pass it.

Example:
Uma is a good example, she trained just as hard as the rest of the ghost, but she is still far behind them in terms of power.

Because of Clare's potential, she was able to pass Helen and Deneven and ketch up to Miria rank 6. If they all had limitless potential, Clare would have never been able to ketch up to Miria (assuming Miria and Clare training was equal).

Just to make sure we are talking bout the same thing.
Miria and Clare are partial-awaken
Clare half-awaken in her fight against Rigaldo.
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Old 2009-10-24, 18:28   Link #731
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Originally Posted by Awakened View Post
MisterJB
Lol, for blindly worshiping Miria, let me start with this.
Worshiping, yes. Blindly, no.

I can say the same about you and Clare.

Quote:
The last time I checked, Miria was the Team leader and not Clare. Clare was way down the food-chain. Flora needed to protect Clare.
If you want to blame someone for Flora's dead. Blame Miria for been to weak.
Reminder
Clare saved Miria from the jars of death (Rigaldo).
And the last time I checked, Flora was the captain of Clare's team.
You seem to be mistaken about how a war goes. The soldiers are supossed to protect their captains/leaders, not the other way around. Or do you see many presidents, kings or generals stepping personally into the field of battle?
Clare was supossed to have protected Flora, who was her captain. This was confirmed by Deneve.

When did I claim that Clare never saved Miria's life? Clare killed Rigardo, that's a fact. And it's also a fact that if it wasn't for Miria's plan, everyone would have died in Pieta.

Quote:
Can Miria half-awaken?
Can she even fight at her limit? Ok, maybe she can since Deneven said she can easily go close to her yoki limit.
Not too sure how this proves that Miria can't win against Clare.

You talk like Clare can simply Awaken her arms and legs at anytime and comeback when she feels like it. You really think she would Awaken in a figth against Miria?

I do not believe that Clare can win. Miria's phantom is certainly much faster now (if she uses Yoki, something she hasn't done yet) and Clare simply won't be able to follow it.

Like I had previously stated, if Miria sprints, with her phantom speed and Yoki towards Clare, the only chance she has is to release the QS all around her before Miria chopps off her neck. It's as simply as that.

Quote:
Very funny, but this is a huge mischaracterization.
Clare's plan was brilliant. In other to get to Renee, she needed to get Riful out of the way. The best way to do this, is to distract Riful, then use stealth to get to Renee. Riflu immediately transformed into AO form, this prevented Clare from freely moving and it was unexpected, so Clare cannot be held responsible.
Clare's plan was brilliant? Ok, then Clare gets Riful out of the cave in human form. What will she do now?

She will walk inside without Riful noticing? With Dauf still in there and ready to warn Riful? If Clare got inside again, Dauf would just attack her again and Riful would notice it.

Also, it's hard to believe that Riful would walk way, leaving her lair unprotected, knowying that Clare couldn't be far away.

Also, if she ever managed to find Renne, what would she do? It's not like Renne can go into stealth mode and if Clare fed her some Yoki pills, Riful would notice the dissapearance of Renne's Yoki (like she did) and come back at full force.

Admit it, Clare didn't tought of it all the way through.

Quote:
She cut off Uma's leg, so that Uma and Cynthia would not be able to accompany her, so that last part is invalid.
Prove it.
Prove it that Clare deliberately cut Yuma's leg so that they couldn't follow her. Because I don't believe it.
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Old 2009-10-24, 18:42   Link #732
revan5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HegemonKhan View Post
well, i'm totally confused by the whole scene... so anything can go... until i see some concrete explaination of WTH was actually happening....

i'm ONLY using naruto manga's genjutsu as an anology or metaphor to try to make possible sense of it, cause it can probably familar to people (those who also like naruto) and is well understood.
Ok, I get your point now. Well, if you want to use that analogy, go ahead.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Awakened View Post
Wow, some people need to take down those Miria Goddess pictures.
What? Goddess images? Awakened, I don't know if you've noticed, but the Galatea Worship-Society is worse than we are. Besides if you were in the Martyrs of Miria group you would know the smoking hot images of Miria contained in our albums are worthy of veneration! That AND her incredible brains, which we very much appreciate not seeing come out of her head.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Awakened View Post
revan5
I was wrong about Miria not deserving her rank 6. The mibs said that she was like a #1 in a group before she got promoted, so she deserves her rank. Forgive me for I have sin.

I know what Deneven said, but I'm going by what I think is right, not by what Deneven said.

Both Clare and Miria are half-awakened, so I was just comparing the two and ignoring everyone els.
Wait, you're saying you ignored the evidence and went with your gut? Don't you know what kind of President trusted his gut?

Well, as for your admitting that Miria deserved the rank...it's about time! Plus, I believe you meant "Forgive me Dark Lord of Animesuki, MisterJB and Miria lovers everywhere, for I have sinned!"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Awakened View Post
Miria new phantom stands no chance against Clare. Miria would need to use yoki to stand a chance against Clare (one on one). If Miria cheats and call for backup, she might be able to win with her new phantom.

We know more about Clare and Miria than Miata. Miata comment only confirmed what we already know. Clare is capable of fighting past her limit, Miria can't dream of doing that.
Oh she'd need backup and yoki against Claire eh? Well, Miria, as Deneve says, is ahead of Claire in every category right now. It was Claire, not Miria, who was put on the defensive in their fight and sent flying backwards onto the ground at one point back in what chapter was that...let me see...ah, yes, it was Chapter 67, page 17. Hmmm...I'm no scientist Awakened, but perhaps you are...could you care to tell me who's on the ground and who's still standing?

Miria is more than a match for Claire in Chapter 67, and unless Claire's new found memories from Raphaela and Quicksword totally change things, she's still in for a world of trouble against Miria. As Irene noted, those who fight by sensing yoki preemptively (Claire/Teresa) have the hardest time against those who fight entirely suppressed, like Miria or Priscilla.

But say Claire forces Miria to release her yoki...what then? If Claire's Quick Sword and fighting abilities are massively improved, it stands to reason so is Miria's REAL "Phantom", which uses Yoki. Unless Claire decides to push herself dangerously close to the edge, she could never hope to land a hit on Miria until Miria came close to Claire on her own whim. So maybe Claire's potential is higher, but Miria would not be an opponent Claire would relish facing. All the sword speed in the world wouldn't matter if she couldn't catch her opponent.

Miria can't dream of fighting past her limit eh? I imagine you do have some proof of that, one way or another? No? Well the answer better be no, because my checking of the manga shows that we simply do not know the answer of whether Miria can fight past her limit. Perhaps she can...or perhaps not, but you can't claim "Miria can't dream of doing that".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Awakened View Post
HegemonKhan
I was wrong about Miria's rank, she deserved it.
I'm glad we still agree that Clare is stronger that Goddess Miria.

MisterJB
Lol, for blindly worshiping Miria, let me start with this.

The last time I checked, Miria was the Team leader and not Clare. Clare was way down the food-chain. Flora needed to protect Clare.
If you want to blame someone for Flora's dead. Blame Miria for been to weak.
Reminder
Clare saved Miria from the jars of death (Rigaldo).

Let me formally apologize for misquoting the manga, I was just going by memory. You guys/gals are right. Miria deserves her rank and the power gap was between rank 6 to 9, not between 6 to 47.

I was talking about the power gap between 47 each rank, not the gap between 47 and 6. I misquoted the manga, I'm sorry.
Blame Miria for being weak? She was against the Awakened former #2! By all rights no one should have stood a chance against him. You wouldn't blame Irene for losing to Priscilla or Teresa would you? Going by your previous logic it would seem you would blame Irene for losing to such a superior foe.

Claire only beat Rigardo because she went WAY past her limits...so far that it took Jean to bring her back. Miria has yet to stretch herself past the point where she can bring herself back, as she did with Ophelia nearby.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Awakened View Post
Can Miria half-awaken?
Can she even fight at her limit? Ok, maybe she can since Deneven said she can easily go close to her yoki limit.
You know, you should really try debating philosophy. In it you'll find you cannot prove or disprove the existence of god. Much like that argument, since there is no evidence one way or another, we CANNOT say whether it is one way or another. So evidently mid-way through your message you have decided to debate yourself Awakened. First you say she can't...and then you hedge your bets and say "maybe she can". So which is it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Awakened View Post
Very funny, but this is a huge mischaracterization.
Clare's plane was brilliant. In other to get to Renee, she needed to get Riful out of the way. The best way to do this, is to distract Riful, then use stealth to get to Renee. Riflu immediately transformed into AO form, this prevented Clare from freely moving and it was unexpected, so Clare cannot be held responsible.
She cut off Uma's leg, so that Uma would not be able to accompany her, so that last part is invalid.
I don't know about brilliance...a good strategist would've planned for the worst from the get-go, which Claire failed to do. Miria on the other hand counted on it for the Pieta situation and her comrades lived as a result. Explain to me how Claire not expecting Riful to go into her Awakened form so early was brilliance. It seems to me it was a huge mistake of planning on Claire's part.
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Old 2009-10-24, 19:29   Link #733
Awakened
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterJB View Post
Worshiping, yes. Blindly, no.

I can say the same about you and Clare.



And the last time I checked, Flora was the captain of Clare's team.
You seem to be mistaken about how a war goes. The soldiers are supossed to protect their captains/leaders, not the other way around. Or do you see many presidents, kings or generals stepping personally into the field of battle?
Clare was supossed to have protected Flora, who was her captain. This was confirmed by Deneve.
You have a valid point, but at the same time it's unrealistic. Leaders in Claymore are usually stronger than there underlings.
Lets take one of your favorite heroes. For argument sake, lets use Miria. Lets pretend that your were in the Claymorevers. Your are a Miria worshiper, so you disided to follow her. You remain a human, so you have no special powers. Clare was unable to make it the the North, because you poisoned her days before the war stated (jealousy). Rigaldo suddenly shows up kill the other captains and is headed for Miria. As a human, your speed is to slow, your strength is to weak, you are unable to see Rigaldo movements. You are powerless in the face of Rigaldo destructive power.
Is it your fault that you are human, and are so weak that you cannot protect your Goddess?

Quote:
When did I claim that Clare never saved Miria's life? Clare killed Rigardo, that's a fact. And it's also a fact that if it wasn't for Miria's plan, everyone would have died in Pieta.
I was just pointing out, that Clare's power was greater than Miria's power.


Quote:
Not too sure how this proves that Miria can't win against Clare.

You talk like Clare can simply Awaken her arms and legs at anytime and comeback when she feels like it. You really think she would Awaken in a figth against Miria?
If Clare need to awaken to win, she is willing to do it. Clare is not afraid of death. Victory is more important.

Quote:
I do not believe that Clare can win. Miria's phantom is certainly much faster now (if she uses Yoki, something she hasn't done yet) and Clare simply won't be able to follow it.

Like I had previously stated, if Miria sprints, with her phantom speed and Yoki towards Clare, the only chance she has is to release the QS all around her before Miria chopps off her neck. It's as simply as that.
Speculation, it's possible, but unlikely because of Clare's potential. Clare has the tools to counter Miria (sensing, speed, quick-sword) .


Quote:
Clare's plan was brilliant? Ok, then Clare gets Riful out of the cave in human form. What will she do now?

She will walk inside without Riful noticing? With Dauf still in there and ready to warn Riful? If Clare got inside again, Dauf would just attack her again and Riful would notice it.

Also, it's hard to believe that Riful would walk way, leaving her lair unprotected, knowying that Clare couldn't be far away.

Also, if she ever managed to find Renne, what would she do? It's not like Renne can go into stealth mode and if Clare fed her some Yoki pills, Riful would notice the dissapearance of Renne's Yoki (like she did) and come back at full force.

Admit it, Clare didn't tought of it all the way through.
Monday morning quarterback are the best. The undeliverable thing is that Mira's plans has no flaws. I admit it, Clare did not think of everything that could have gone wrong with her plan. For a one-man army, it was a good enough plan.

Quote:
Prove it.
Prove it that Clare deliberately cut Yuma's leg so that they couldn't follow her. Because I don't believe it.
I can't prove it, but the month the chapter came out, I argued that Clare did it or purpose.
1) Why are they so close to Duph? (they had two of the best sensor with them)
2) Clare knows Duph and she can sense him from mils away.
3) Why did they hid? They are all stealthed, running was easy. I have proff. Cynthia was able to run from Duph wile carrying Uma. If they could run away after Duph fond them, why did they have to wait to run?
4) Clare was sweating when she was behind the tree. Why? (her life was not in danger).
5) Clare could have distracted Duph before he got to Uma, she did not. Why?
6) Clare had a motive to get Uma or Cynthia injured.
7) Cynthia told Clare that they will never live her side. Clare had plans to go see Renee/Rafaela, she needed to get rid of her babysitters.
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Old 2009-10-24, 19:40   Link #734
irvinethearcher
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterJB
Not too sure how this proves that Miria can't win against Clare.

You talk like Clare can simply Awaken her arms and legs at anytime and comeback when she feels like it. You really think she would Awaken in a figth against Miria?

I do not believe that Clare can win. Miria's phantom is certainly much faster now (if she uses Yoki, something she hasn't done yet) and Clare simply won't be able to follow it.

Like I had previously stated, if Miria sprints, with her phantom speed and Yoki towards Clare, the only chance she has is to release the QS all around her before Miria chopps off her neck. It's as simply as that.
Deneve as Miria FanGirl says that miria is still a superior fighter with better mental control, swordsmanship and speed(?).
The problem now is that everything has changed. Clare is now the most experienced warrior on the entire island. She has the knowledge of the oldest known claymore inside of her who was a specialist in soul link and who was obsessed by bringing her sister back at all costs with such a soul link. God knows what rafaella found out in all those years and how deep her knowledge is.
I think the probability that clare can now at least control her awakened arms and bring them back alone without help at will is high. And we both know that miria would be damnd as soon as clare would awaken her arms.
Rafaella's knowledge goes far beyond soul link. Everything, movements and swordsmanship technique is now enhanced by her memories. We know from the AF's how important experience is when they fought isley and riful.
Another point is that miria was not able to beat clare despite both fought stealthy which was a huge advantage for miria. So if miria had to fight clare with released yoki clare would use her preemptive aura protection and her improved quicksword which should be on pair with irene's by now. This would make her defense nearly impenetrable for miria even with the original yoki based phantom. We can at least say that miria would have not much of a chance beating clare when both have released their yoki.
If clare could catch miria without awakening of bodyparts is indeed highly doubtful.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Awakened
I can't prove it, but the month the chapter came out, I argued that Clare did it or purpose.
1) Why are they so close to Duph? (they had two of the best sensor with them)
2) Clare knows Duph and she can sense him from mils away.
3) Why did they hid? They are all stealthed, running was easy. I have proff. Cynthia was able to run from Duph wile carrying Uma. If they could run away after Duph fond them, why did they have to wait to run?
4) Clare was sweating when she was behind the tree. Why? (her life was not in danger).
5) Clare could have distracted Duph before he got to Uma, she did not. Why?
6) Clare had a motive to get Uma or Cynthia injured.
7) Cynthia told Clare that they will never live her side. Clare had plans to go see Renee/Rafaela, she needed to get rid of her babysitters.
A solid theory but i think that clare did not plan this and would not risk the life of her comrades.
Imo it was more an urge which drew her to raciella. If it was a subconscious S.O.S beacon from rafaella which called for help those who have another otherworldly yoki source inside of them and can somehow "listen" or if it was something else(Theresa), who knows?
I have the theory that something drew clare near riful's hideout even before she was remotely controlled by (probably) rafaella like the Dust Devil drew the woman to Bethany in that film i really like
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Last edited by irvinethearcher; 2009-10-24 at 19:53.
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Old 2009-10-24, 19:49   Link #735
HegemonKhan
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about clare's (2nd) sparing with miria (before they left the north) :

to me, it's clear, clare (ughn... bad two words together lol)* wasn't fighting seriously (just like in her 1st sparing against miria, only fighting by trying to read miria's yoki flows), why.... clare wants to keep her true power secret. being underestimated is a very powerful weapon. deceit and deception. Also, if clare used her full power.... miria would be dead... it was a sparing match and they are "BFF", so it's not like it's a fight to the death.....

* try saying "clear clare" fast-quickly and repeatedly..... lol
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one counter comment to you, irvine:

you can NOT compare:

awakened clare to non-awakened miria

it's just silly... and pointless

defeats the whole purpose of a comparison. being awakened is suppose to make you more powerful... (unless you got already huge difference in power... like teresa vs rosemary/priscilla, hehe)
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Old 2009-10-24, 19:57   Link #736
irvinethearcher
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I think they were on pair. Miata sensed that too with her good sixth sense.
But NOW after the memory transfer i doubt that miria could still fight on pair with clare.
Clare is simply more experienced by now even without her slumbering potential of theresa and her hax.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HegemonKhan
one counter comment to you, irvine:

you can NOT compare:

awakened clare to non-awakened miria

it's just silly... and pointless

defeats the whole purpose of a comparison. being awakened is suppose to make you more powerful... (unless you got already huge difference in power... like teresa vs rosemary/priscilla, hehe)
everything is fair in love and war and like in the evolution or call it the struggle of life every new ability will be used the moment it is at the disposal of the creature,
but you are right, therefore i mentioned a comparison without those hax too. And even there clare seems to be the superior warrior at the moment because of the knowledge she obtained.
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Old 2009-10-24, 19:59   Link #737
HegemonKhan
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this i do agree with.... i strongly believe clare has rafaela's powers-abilities, and i can't wait to see it....

clare has already been using rafaela's knowledge or memories to tell deneve and helen about the destroyer and explain it's projectiles and hellcats to them.
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Old 2009-10-24, 20:06   Link #738
irvinethearcher
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helen and deneve seem to believe clare everything without question why she knows all this.
Probably they are already used to it that clare simply "knows" things when it comes to the crunch
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Old 2009-10-24, 20:15   Link #739
MisterJB
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Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Casterly Rock
Quote:
Originally Posted by Awakened View Post
You have a valid point, but at the same time it's unrealistic. Leaders in Claymore are usually stronger than there underlings.
Lets take one of your favorite heroes. For argument sake, lets use Miria. Lets pretend that your were in the Claymorevers. Your are a Miria worshiper, so you disided to follow her. You remain a human, so you have no special powers. Clare was unable to make it the the North, because you poisoned her days before the war stated (jealousy). Rigaldo suddenly shows up kill the other captains and is headed for Miria. As a human, your speed is to slow, your strength is to weak, you are unable to see Rigaldo movements. You are powerless in the face of Rigaldo destructive power.
Is it your fault that you are human, and are so weak that you cannot protect your Goddess?
First of all, why the hell would I poison Clare? Why would I not want the presence of a strong warrior like Clare in the North. Her presence would not help me but it would also help Miria.

Also, if I commited myself to protect Miria and failed due to my own weakness, then yes. It would be my fault that she died.
As a human, I would be powerless against Awakened Beings. I shouldn't be in the battlefield in the first place, much less commit myself to protect a Claymore captain who will, most likely, be targeted by he enemy.

Same thing goes for Clare, she was on Flora's team. She was supossed to protect her and she failed to do that. Especially since Clare was as strong as Flora.

Also, there shouldn't be any doubt in anyone's mind that it was because of Clare that Flora died. Clare attacked Rigardo after he wounded Jean, when she should have stayed by her captain's side to protect her.




Quote:
I was just pointing out, that Clare's power was greater than Miria's power.
No, it isn't. Clare's potential is bigger than Miria's because she has Teresa inside her. But rigth now, Miria is still stronger than Clare.


Quote:
Speculation, it's possible, but unlikely because of Clare's potential. Clare has the tools to counter Miria (sensing, speed, quick-sword) .
Sensing is useless if you body is not fast. Even if Clare could feel that Miria was going to slice her neck, it would be useless if her body can't react fast enough.

Speed? You're kidding, rigth? Do I need to stat why Miria is much faster than Clare?

Yes, the Quicksword is Clare's only hope. Her rigth arm is the only part of her body that can match Miria in speed.


Quote:
Monday morning quarterback are the best. The undeliverable thing is that Mira's plans has no flaws. I admit it, Clare did not think of everything that could have gone wrong with her plan. For a one-man army, it was a good enough plan.
No, it was not because her plan had a 0% chance of sucess if her objective was to rescue Renne.
I have already stated why in my previous post.



Quote:
I can't prove it, but the month the chapter came out, I argued that Clare did it or purpose.
1) Why are they so close to Duph? (they had two of the best sensor with them)
2) Clare knows Duph and she can sense him from mils away.
3) Why did they hid? They are all stealthed, running was easy. I have proff. Cynthia was able to run from Duph wile carrying Uma. If they could run away after Duph fond them, why did they have to wait to run?
4) Clare was sweating when she was behind the tree. Why? (her life was not in danger).
5) Clare could have distracted Duph before he got to Uma, she did not. Why?
6) Clare had a motive to get Uma or Cynthia injured.
7) Cynthia told Clare that they will never live her side. Clare had plans to go see Renee/Rafaela, she needed to get rid of her babysitters.
Some of those points are valid but they indicate plot holes in the story. It does not prove that Clare wanted Yuma or Cynthia to get hurt.

1-Why would Clare need an excuse to injure Yuma or Cynthia? She could have done it herself.
2- Yuma and Cynthia must also have felt Dauf's Yoki from afar. If Clare was leading them to him on purpose, why did they not speak against it?

Clare was sweating because, even tough her life migth not have been in danger, figthing an Awakened number 3 is never a good thing, expecially when that Awakened is the boyfriend of an Abyssal One.

Clare didn't distract Dauf because she was trying to avoid him.


Quote:
I think the probability that clare can now at least control her awakened arms and bring them back alone without help at will is high.
Go easy before claiming something like that. The probrability is very small. Raphaela failed at the Soul-link and you think that now, Clare can simply Awaken her arms and bring them back.
Besides, Soul-link is about bringing other people back, not bringing yourself back. Clare brought Jean back in the Witch's Maw and yet, she couldn't bring herself back in Pieta.


Quote:
Another point is that miria was not able to beat clare despite both fought stealthy which was a huge advantage for miria.
Advantage? That worked against Miria! Her new Phantom is slower than the last one and even if she can use the New Phantom without stopping, Clare can also use the WindCutter without stopping.

Quote:
So if miria had to fight clare with released yoki clare would use her preemptive aura protection and her improved quicksword which should be on pair with irene's by now. This would make her defense nearly impenetrable for miria even with the original yoki based phantom. We can at least say that miria would have not much of a chance beating clare when both have released their yoki.
It's the other way around. Miria can kill Clare in the split of a second if she uses Yoki. Miria's new speed is certainly so amazing that Clare would not even see it coming. The preemptive aura wouldn't work because Clare's body wouldn't be able to react fast enough with the single expection of her rigth arm.

Clare's only hope of survival is to use the QS all around and, even tough that would be a good defense, it would be impossible for her to catch Miria.
So, Clare can not wound Miria.
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Old 2009-10-24, 20:17   Link #740
Awakened
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Quote:
Originally Posted by revan5 View Post
What? Goddess images? Awakened, I don't know if you've noticed, but the Galatea Worship-Society is worse than we are. Besides if you were in the Martyrs of Miria group you would know the smoking hot images of Miria contained in our albums are worthy of veneration! That AND her incredible brains, which we very much appreciate not seeing come out of her head.



Wait, you're saying you ignored the evidence and went with your gut? Don't you know what kind of President trusted his gut?

Well, as for your admitting that Miria deserved the rank...it's about time! Plus, I believe you meant "Forgive me Dark Lord of Animesuki, MisterJB and Miria lovers everywhere, for I have sinned!"
lol


Quote:
Oh she'd need backup and yoki against Claire eh? Well, Miria, as Deneve says, is ahead of Claire in every category right now. It was Claire, not Miria, who was put on the defensive in their fight and sent flying backwards onto the ground at one point back in what chapter was that...let me see...ah, yes, it was Chapter 67, page 17. Hmmm...I'm no scientist Awakened, but perhaps you are...could you care to tell me who's on the ground and who's still standing?

Miria is more than a match for Claire in Chapter 67, and unless Claire's new found memories from Raphaela and Quicksword totally change things, she's still in for a world of trouble against Miria. As Irene noted, those who fight by sensing yoki preemptively (Claire/Teresa) have the hardest time against those who fight entirely suppressed, like Miria or Priscilla.
I agree that Clare was the one on her back, but lest us take off the our Miria blindfold and put down our Miria coolaid. Lets look a the the entire event, and not just at a convenient part on what happened.
If I remember correctly:
1) Miria attacked Clare without any provocation.
2) Clare was not taking Miria seriously at first. (Thats the reason why she landed on her back)
3) Miria ended up acknowledging Clare's power.
4) Miria is a secret Clare worshiper.

Quote:
But say Claire forces Miria to release her yoki...what then? If Claire's Quick Sword and fighting abilities are massively improved, it stands to reason so is Miria's REAL "Phantom", which uses Yoki. Unless Claire decides to push herself dangerously close to the edge, she could never hope to land a hit on Miria until Miria came close to Claire on her own whim. So maybe Claire's potential is higher, but Miria would not be an opponent Claire would relish facing. All the sword speed in the world wouldn't matter if she couldn't catch her opponent.
Miria has an exploitable weakness that Clare has seen more than once. Chase Miria around for a long time then watch her beg for her life.

Quote:
Miria can't dream of fighting past her limit eh? I imagine you do have some proof of that, one way or another? No? Well the answer better be no, because my checking of the manga shows that we simply do not know the answer of whether Miria can fight past her limit. Perhaps she can...or perhaps not, but you can't claim "Miria can't dream of doing that".
I was only using logic. You can't make two gallons of juice out of one gallon of water (Miria coolaid for example, only one source of liquid). Teresa, Priscilla, Alicia, Riful, Isley are all powerful, because form the beginning they had that potential. Miria cannot dream of having her name mention with the top Claymore's, but Clare can.

Quote:
Blame Miria for being weak? She was against the Awakened former #2! By all rights no one should have stood a chance against him. You wouldn't blame Irene for losing to Priscilla or Teresa would you? Going by your previous logic it would seem you would blame Irene for losing to such a superior foe.

Claire only beat Rigardo because she went WAY past her limits...so far that it took Jean to bring her back. Miria has yet to stretch herself past the point where she can bring herself back, as she did with Ophelia nearby.
I was not blamming Miria. JB was blaming Clare for Flora's death, so I was been a bit sarcastic.

Quote:
You know, you should really try debating philosophy. In it you'll find you cannot prove or disprove the existence of god. Much like that argument, since there is no evidence one way or another, we CANNOT say whether it is one way or another. So evidently mid-way through your message you have decided to debate yourself Awakened. First you say she can't...and then you hedge your bets and say "maybe she can". So which is it?
Philosophy was one of my favorite classes. I have been waiting for a long time to see all four half-awaken ghost awaken and them return to normal, so I think that somehow Miria would be able to, but at this moment in time, Clare has proven that she can.


Quote:
I don't know about brilliance...a good strategist would've planned for the worst from the get-go, which Claire failed to do. Miria on the other hand counted on it for the Pieta situation and her comrades lived as a result. Explain to me how Claire not expecting Riful to go into her Awakened form so early was brilliance. It seems to me it was a huge mistake of planning on Claire's part.
First of all, Riful only went into AO mode because she is chess master. She knew about the ghost, so she came up with way to capture them. If it was anyone other than Riful, it very unlikely that they will immediately go into AO mode (Ilsey vs. Lucila, they did not go into AO mode wright away ).

Would you admit that Miria did not plan on Riglado or Isley entering the fight?

Some wise person said that no plan survive the first encounter.

All Miria worshipers should place all their Miria pictures at Clare's feet and worship her for saving Miria.
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