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Old 2008-12-11, 09:55   Link #121
Darknemo2000
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I like all cahracter but I'd rather they would value themselves bit more. Shinji was not excatly a self-destruct. He was just passive.

Actually Shinji started to live with Misato on his own accord
Spoiler for lalala:


All in all Shinji and Ryuuji are not that different. They are very similar is just that Ryuuji is less shy and less tender. But on the whole - their characters and the situation they started are not that different. Its just that Shinji had much more sad past than Ryuuji and that the dysfunctional family of Misato's apartment started to crumble as the situation got tensed.

Shinji is one of my favorite characters by the way so I cannot say that I hate those characters with small ego, its just that I would like for the viewers to get their feet on the ground - Ryuuji is not really spectacular hero and no he does not have that much of courage nor the will to stand up against anyone when that involves his ego.

I think that people give him too much credit in this situation. He is made to do things, yes he doesn't mind them at all, but the fact is that even if he minded he would still get the stuff forced upon him. He is not an equal to Taiga, just like Shinji was not an equal to Asuka, and even though they both have other motives to be so passive it doesn't change the fact that they both have very small egos and are doormats for the majority of time.

Ryuuji could never function so well with Taiga if he was more like Saito and not a natural doormat.
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Old 2008-12-11, 10:44   Link #122
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To your point this leads to conclusion that "Opposite attracts". Big ego (Taiga) and Ryuuji (Small Ego). But I have to wait if I agree to your points. Well I have to wait if he can have or will never have that will to stand up to anyone or courage your talking about. It's still in the middle of the story except you already know what happened in the novels and spoil me that he never changes.
I still get the feeling that the reason he does not stand up against girls is because he's a gentleman. Maybe stupid but, I think he sticks to his values.
Well I can still say he's a hero. For saving Taiga, overcoming Kitamura's rejection, helping her for a lot of things like overcoming her fears and for letting her experience a family.
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Old 2008-12-11, 12:16   Link #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
His brain may explode if he ever encounters a "Three Stooges" festival or watches an american cartoon.

Saturday Night Live still does live slapstick and pratfalls..... but the Simpsons, Family Guy, Futurama, and other animations all do slapstick.

... none of which has anything to do with Ryuuji. I just view Taiga's small number of physical shenanigans on Ryuujij as the hyperbolic equivalent of my 95 pound wife thumping me or punching me in the arm.
Doesn't mean that slapstick comedy is really funny. I've never seen the hilarity in such shows as this. I try and give them chances and they always fail out to me. I'm tired of seeing male leads get the tar beat out of them.

Ryuugi is not on the same level as Kyon or Yuuichi. Not even close.
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Old 2008-12-11, 13:30   Link #124
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I won't argue that slapstick comedy is particularly funny --- it usually appeals to very young or simpler tastes because it is the simplest form of comedy. But then a great deal of comedy depends on the flaws and fallibility of the human condition in some way.

Yeah, I'd be delighted if the remnants of the "knocks Keitaro into the star" would fade away. Unfortunately, this is Japan and such nonsense is apparently viewed as of the same vein as the other memes of emotionalism (e.g.sweat drops, starry eyes, chibi ball of smoke with hands and feet waving, and the ever-annoying nosebleed, etc).

I'd probably get madder if I saw a nosebleed on Toradora! (thank god not).

Obviously its a subjective assessment, but I'll put Ryuuji far closer to Kyon than to Keitaro in terms of how he has handled the situation from the start. Keitaro was a groveler. He kept trying to change his behavior to suit the girls and was continuously blamed for obvious accidents. On the other end of the spectrum, as I recall Kyon let Haruhi drag him hither and yon (literally). He also couldn't quite explain what was interesting about Haruhi to himself. He would also negotiate with her rather than just fall over.

Which one sounds more like Ryuuji? Keitaro-the-doormat or Kyon-the-gentleman?
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Old 2008-12-11, 14:59   Link #125
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Kyon didn't LET but was dragged instead. Only latter he started to grew accustomed to the situation.

In fact Kyon has much bigger ego than Ryuuji could ever dream to (just his talking tone and style is filled with that, making Ryuuji look generic compared to that). The problem is that like Ryuuji, like Shinji he is very passive. Also following Haruhi means allowing this world to exist. Or else she might create another one thus Kyon doe shave much more sense in obeying her.

I would say chosing Ryuuji between Keitaro-doormat (who is active though but a looser) and Kyon I would go with Kyon. But if I were to choose Shinji and Kyon I would go with Shinji. Ryuuji is still pretty much a dormat. Kind , good but person over whom others walk and clean their feet into.
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Old 2008-12-11, 15:37   Link #126
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I'd just like to say, that, although an interesting character in his own right, Shinji fails as a main character for being too much of a wuss.

Ryuuji is also a wuss, but he has those little quirks that make him amusing, thus putting him much higher in my mind than Shinji.

Still doesn't beat Kyon for amusingness and personality, though.
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Old 2008-12-11, 17:25   Link #127
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Kyons awesomeness is dependant on the talent of the author, as basically it is the way it is told that makes him so memorable. You just know it is Kyon the way the story is told.

Though Toradora is told from Ryuuji's perspective you can easily forget about him. His ego cannot be seen in the way the story is told, simply because the Takemiya's talent (author of Toradora) is way below that of Nagaru's.

Ryuuji will never match Kyon. But this is normal. And he still makes a good enough male lead.
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Old 2008-12-11, 17:46   Link #128
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I think we can all come to the conclusion that Ryuuji is nowhere near pathetic (pay attention to that word) to the common harem male lead. You just have to pay attention towards every other relationship he has, other with girls. Like how he handles his situation at home and how he actually has a good friend in Kitamura.
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Old 2008-12-11, 17:54   Link #129
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Can't really argue with either Darknemo2000 or Nukerjsr last posts. Ryuuji is what he is and it gets subjective and personal based on our own life experience quickly after that.

Author talent is definitely a factor here... I laud Takemiya for what she(he?) is trying to do but there's some scrabbling and slips in it. The anime's simplification and compression makes it easier for many to write off Ryuuji rather than take him as an interesting flawed person whose goal of love is being trampled by the needs of the many
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Old 2008-12-11, 18:37   Link #130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darknemo2000 View Post
Kyons awesomeness is dependant on the talent of the author, as basically it is the way it is told that makes him so memorable. You just know it is Kyon the way the story is told.

Though Toradora is told from Ryuuji's perspective you can easily forget about him. His ego cannot be seen in the way the story is told, simply because the Takemiya's talent (author of Toradora) is way below that of Nagaru's.

Ryuuji will never match Kyon. But this is normal. And he still makes a good enough male lead.
Nagaru's writing is excellent. But he fails miserably at direction and character development.

In all of 9 novels, only Yuki and arguably Haruhi and Kyon have gotten any real development at all.

In the 9 novels of Toradora, EVERYONE has gotten massive development. Except maybe Kitamura.

Also the plot is going somewhere. The plot in Haruhi... not really.
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Old 2008-12-11, 19:03   Link #131
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Nagaru seems to have gotten into the "characters led me somewhere I didn't intend to go initially" dilemma (speculation on delay of latest novel). And to be honest, his story is more about the wonder of the situation than character evolution. There has been more character *evolution* in Toradora in the portion I've read so far (just starting the school festival arc and holding there).
I could subjectively say that Nagaru's writing style is a bit more interesting than Takemiya... but then I find Spice&Wolf light novels and its writing style more interesting than either (which I know differs from opinions of some others ).
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Old 2008-12-11, 21:31   Link #132
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I found it incredulous to compare Ryuji with Shinji (NGE). Both of them are too different from each other.
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Old 2008-12-11, 23:00   Link #133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
I could subjectively say that Nagaru's writing style is a bit more interesting than Takemiya...
Can blame Kyon's rather odd narration for that.

Toradora is done in the comparatively easier-to-do third person narrative, which, although it allows us to see situations Ryuuji doesn't see and hear the thoughts of other characters besides Ryuuji, doesn't give us as immersive an experience.
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Old 2008-12-11, 23:15   Link #134
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Ryuuji was pretty pissed at the end of ep 11. That's the first time he used physical means to keep Taiga under control, I was actually kinda scared. I believe Taiga mentioned this before(or not), but Ryuuji seems to make assumptions about Taiga's needs and wants. I do feel that he's doing it because he is honestly trying to help her. But forcing his own beliefs on her isn't necessarily the way to do it. Or maybe it's that he's looking at her circumstances from his own perspective instead of hers(redundant?). Anyways I can't wait to see how this affects him emotionally and psychologically.

Quote:
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Can't really argue with either Darknemo2000 or Nukerjsr last posts. Ryuuji is what he is and it gets subjective and personal based on our own life experience quickly after that.
True, but I still want to refute it . Maybe I just like argueing >.>.

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Originally Posted by Dark View Post
Kyon didn't LET but was dragged instead. Only latter he started to grew accustomed to the situation.

Ryuuji will never match Kyon. But this is normal. And he still makes a good enough male lead.
Please, Kyon had just as much a chance to say "no" to Haruhi as Ryuuji to Taiga. It's more or less the same... oh wait, Kyon did all that complaining and went along with whatever Haruhi wanted, but at least Ryuuji had the reason of wanting to be next to Minorin. What was Kyon's reason? Oh, he didn't have one, sorry. At the very least, Kyon hasn't really done anything to impact the show's chars; he's just there going along with the flow getting constantly swepted up in the shenanigans. However, Ryuuji has actually changed Taiga, Ami(to a certain extent), and perhaps will change Minorin too.

Honestly, what really sets Kyon apart from other male leads is the fact that he has an exorbitant amount of inner monologues, which are very amusing. Do you remember ep 1 where(at the beg) Ryuuji starts talking about how that apartment complex was big and started complaining to himself? That's all that it really is. I'm not saying Kyon is only good because of monologues; he's an excellent char in his own right. But w/o them he'd probably be no more memorable than that Clannad's Tomoya is(as the vibe they give off is similiar).

Now i gotta reinstate the suzudora avatar =_=.

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Originally Posted by rave_master16 View Post
I still get the feeling that the reason he does not stand up against girls is because he's a gentleman. Maybe stupid but, I think he sticks to his values.
I thought it was to avoid the image his exterior brought out, avoiding what he thinks are the things his dad does(I'm assuming he never heard anything about him that he deemed positive from his mother). That's probably why he's good at feminine activities(cleaning, cooking, sewing, etc.).
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Old 2008-12-12, 04:47   Link #135
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i really don't see how people can compare the first emo of anime to ryuuji...

not trolling just noticed it...that's all...

Last edited by Pellissier; 2008-12-13 at 01:56. Reason: please use the "edit" button instead of double posting
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Old 2008-12-12, 06:31   Link #136
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Well look this way while from the first look it looks like Kyon and Ryuuji are much closer than to Shinji but if you take the whole situation into account you can see actually a lot of similarities between Shinji and Ryuuji.

First of all Kyon doesn't like cooking or cleaning, while Ryuuji and Shinji enjoy doing that.

Kyon actually argues with Haruhi and can go against her will specially in later volumes. Thats something I still need to see Ryuuji and Shinji to do. Ryuuji was getting angry in episode 11, so what? He was about to apologize her anyway. Shinji also had similar bursts that usually ended with him apologizing.

All three like to talk back (yes even Shinji, that is before the situation got tensed he actually was argueing with Asuka a lot) but due to their all three passive nature they are easily suppressed by girls with really big egos - Haruhi, Asuka and Taiga.

However Kyon, has more of characterization to offer than Shinji and Ryuuji, not because of his actions but because of storytelling. You know it is kyon even if the sentence does not talk about him, thats how big his presence is. Ryuuji cannot match that, and not because only of the difference between first and third person's storytelling, but as we see when Ryyuji's thoughts are displayed the way he thinks has much less of personalization than Kyon's. Shinji, because he was anime character originally, does not have any really speech patterns to compare.

Shinji is emo but only when the situation got angsty and crushing. Hell all characters broke there not only Shinji - Misato, Akagi, Asuka. You name it. But before the things went ugly he was not really an emo. People kind of fall into stereotype calling him an emo that he became in second half of the series forgetting that its the situation that drove him there, and that many characters broke not only him.

Shinji was a shut-in in the beginning with his hedgehogs complex yet he was not an emo. He was scared for his life, but all normal people would . Only idiots and hero's are not afraid of their lives (well basically those two words are synonymous anyway). It doesn't make him an emo. Only very much in the latter part of the series he got crushed by the situation that crushed all of evangelion characters.

For me comparing Ryuuji with Shinji is just as much legitimate as comparing Kyon and Ryuuji. In fact I see a lot of similarities between the two.
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Old 2008-12-12, 19:24   Link #137
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i can see what you are saying...maybe it's my disdain for shinji because of the way he is...a little too emotional and it's understandable due to his past with his parents and all. It's just that there's a likability factor with kyon and ryuuji in which they are more positive in their outlook on things and won't just sit in a train and stare at the ground...moping...
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Old 2008-12-12, 22:27   Link #138
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Kyon? Positive? Hah.

Kyon is nearly as inherently negative as Shinji, just that Kyon has this dry sense of humor that makes him amusing. If Shinji was funny, we'd hate him less.
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Old 2008-12-13, 07:14   Link #139
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Really now, this can be off-topic.
Kyon and Shinji can be compared. With their experiences, that is but not their egos.
They experienced almost the same with meeting with aliens, world's end, and bitches and stuff. But we see their differences, because Shinji closed the door, but Kyon accepted though he complains. Shinji self-destructs. Kyon does not. Apparently, he enjoyed it though he does not admit it.
I can classify Kyon as a male Tsundere character, with his attitude.
Shinji is just a wimp. Really, don't get me wrong. It's what I see about him. (Especially in the End of Eva)
And Ryuuji, I don't think he can meet espers, aliens and stuff. But he meet a bitchy character.
And to what I saw in the last episode, he can force a bitchy attitude to obey, (Seriously, I thought he tamed Taiga). He's not really a wimp or has no ego. I think he's more concerned in how people perceive because people misunderstand him as a Yankee (delinquent) so he accepts others attitude as they accepted him as a friend.
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Old 2008-12-13, 08:46   Link #140
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Again I am saying that you purposely ignore the beginning of Evangelion and just classify him as wimp based on what you see in the end when the hell breaks loose. Shinji was never a self-destruct. Asuka was self-destruct, Shinji was not. Yet he was pushed to the self-distruct eventually. But look at the situation he was in. If Kyon had to kill his sister or at least injure her so that she would loose her limps, do you think he would be still same old? I highly doubt that. The situation that Shinji is just cannot be compared to the situation that Ryuuji and Kyon are due to the tension that is few times higher.

Are you sure that Kyon and Ryuuji would not break eventually like Shinji did? Imagine ryuuji seeing his mother die before his eyes? Will they really be that strong? I am not so sure considering what Shinji had to deal with. Shinji was normal person. Not a hero but not some suicidal freak either. He was shy of others due to not having many friends but it doesn't mean he was a wimp. He was very passive but so are Kyon and Ryuuji. What makes Kyon so special is his humor sense but I am not so sure if it would help him to cope with everything what Shinji has been through.

I am comparing the base of their characters before the different situations kicked in. And for me Shinji carries a lot of similarities, specially to Ryuuji.
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