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Old 2008-12-13, 09:02   Link #141
HayashiTakara
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Ryuuji a wuss? when did this happen? As far as I've known, he's a fairly normal guy that just cares too much.

Ryuuji has put his foot down plenty of times with Taiga. Like how she insisted on meat for dinner, but he still went ahead and made the dish he intended. He enjoys taking care of people, its a dominant of his personality. He's drawn to Taiga because he notices that under her rough exterior, she desperately needs someone, and thats the mysterious force that keeps him next to her. He's not sticking with her because he's a masochist or a wuss. He's doing it cause he wants to help her, to take care of her.
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Old 2008-12-13, 09:06   Link #142
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@darknemo2000 Really now, based on your points. Everybody's like Shinji. If everybody experience what he experienced, people will be the same as him. It's like if you experience what happened to him, you'll be the same as him. Well, I don't know about that.
But unfortunately we can't put them to the other worlds.
If Ryuuji saw his mother die, we are not sure if Ryuuji will react the same as Shinji. But I'm he will be depressed or pissed because it's a basic reaction of a human being. But we will not know if he will be like Shinji.
We can relate the beginning Shinji to any normal person with a sad past. I was like him. Introverted. But we have different views even though we have the same experiences.
And did Shinji see his mother died? I thought her mother died because something happened but Shinji didn't see it. Can you clarify this? My memories are blurry.
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Old 2008-12-13, 09:22   Link #143
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Well, I'm not too experienced with Shinji but the point stands that even though he will argue, he will eventually do it anyway or back down. Shinji just went under tremendous, psychological pressure. If anything, you can link together all three of them just because of the fact they have a great level of tolerance.

Ryuuji = Caught between three women who have different views on him. He takes care of one who is caught up in her emotions, adores another who prefers to act weird and a wildcard. His mother is childish and works all the time and he has a dead parent.
Kyon = The "chosen one" by Haruhi the key to evolution who at any moment can destroy the world with a mere utterance. He is depended on by three different parties who have the same goal with the different issues. And love is a factor due to the jealousy.
Shinji = Pilot of robot that has to save the Earth. Has to take care of two different women. He has to go through the drama with his neglectant father and the death of his mom. With him, he does crack under the pressure.

Seriously, if you think Ryuuji is a bad character think about this. Think of a male lead in a series this year who was cared for by two different women. Were they as developed or strong as Ryuuji? Doubt it.
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Old 2008-12-13, 09:30   Link #144
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Originally Posted by Nukerjsr View Post
Seriously, if you think Ryuuji is a bad character think about this. Think of a male lead in a series this year who was cared for by two different women. Were they as developed or strong as Ryuuji? Doubt it.
Agree with you on your posts, but just to answer this question... Aono Tsukune from Rosario + Vampire (the manga, not the complete failure of an anime) The greatest harem lead in existence. *points at signature*
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Old 2008-12-13, 09:34   Link #145
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Agree with you on your posts, but just to answer this question... Aono Tsukune from Rosario + Vampire (the manga, not the complete failure of an anime) The greatest harem lead in existence. *points at signature*
Off topic ! Amen to that. I can't relate the GAR Tsukune to the failure Tsukune. Are they really the same person? I wish Madhouse remake it for justice.
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Old 2008-12-13, 10:31   Link #146
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Who ever said that Ryuuji is a wuss? He is similar to Shinji thats all. And Shinji was not originally a wuss. Thats one thing that people overlook and label him with. He became so in the situation later on. But originally, no Shinji was not a wuss. He could stand up against Asuka or Misato even if they won against him in the end due to his passive nature.

rave_master16, Shinji saw his mother die, just like Asuka did saw her mother die (though not the moment of death just the result - her hanging down the ceiling), but he like Asuka tried to ignore his past, just differently from Asuka he became a shut-in while Asuka tried to be loved by all so that she would surpass the doll that her mother chose instead of herself.

I am just saying that you are comparing Shinji in the end of evangelion with Ryuuji and Kyon but this is not fair because Shinji in the beginning is very different to the one at the end and this is not his original character but because of the situation and if you were to place Kyon and Ryuuji in his situation you may see different faces of them as well, and not necessarily angry or pissed off.

And yes Shinji is in fact a normal person. Maybe more introvert than usual but he is more realistic than a lot of other characters. In fact as for as sociology and psychology such Shinji-like reactions rare more usual in really threatening situations rather than heroic/courageous ones that we are so used to see in books films or anime. Bringing such taste of reality was like a slap on a face to the dreamers who think that heroic acts are very usual and that they could act just as heroic in given situation. Yet reality is bit different. The majority reactions are still Shinji-like. Not saying that it necessarily goes to the depth of such extreme as it was in the end but because Shinji is a portray of something that many anime-fans try to run away or forget - reality. Naturally it caused such strong reaction against him and still causes hatred because of that. And he annoy the hell out of many. Shinji denies an image of a hero, he is a weak, passive person.

I find him similar to Ryuuji or Kyon in that aspect. Juts that Shinji's situation was so extreme that it brought out the worst of him eventually. But to say that he was self-destruct from a beginning was too big conclusion to make since you are ignoring the beginning of it.

Kyon has something taht does help a lot in grieve situation - his dry humor. The way he tells the story really establishes him as a character. Meanwhile Ryuuji and Shinji are not that lucky...

PS. Shinji (like others) never piloted robot though - simply because there were no robots in evangelion just Evas, and you probably are aware that they were not robots and not even machines in true sense of the word.

And ye this discussion is going way off topic.

Ryuuji is a great lead. Juts that people give too much strength to him. He is not that strong and tahts the reason why he can deall with Taiga so well.
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Old 2008-12-13, 11:19   Link #147
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Originally Posted by Darknemo2000 View Post
I am just saying that you are comparing Shinji in the end of evangelion with Ryuuji and Kyon but this is not fair because Shinji in the beginning is very different to the one at the end and this is not his original character but because of the situation and if you were to place Kyon and Ryuuji in his situation you may see different faces of them as well, and not necessarily angry or pissed off.
That's why I can't accept your comparison. They have different situations in life. And we really can't know what will Ryuuji do if he was in that kind of experience.
Quote:
And yes Shinji is in fact a normal person. Maybe more introvert than usual but he is more realistic than a lot of other characters.
Quote:
Shinji denies an image of a hero, he is a weak, passive person.
Differences between him and Ryuuji and Kyon. You stated it.
Quote:
But to say that he was self-destruct from a beginning was too big conclusion to make since you are ignoring the beginning of it.
Wait did I say he self-destruct in the beginning. I said he self-destructs because of his situation.
Quote:
Kyon has something taht does help a lot in grieve situation - his dry humor. The way he tells the story really establishes him as a character. Meanwhile
Quote:
Ryuuji
and Shinji are not that lucky...
Wait are you presuming Ryuuji will react the same as Shinji?

Quote:
And yet this discussion is going way off topic.
Yeah we all know that. I'm saying this because it's surprising you relate Shinji (Ok the beginning Shinji.) to Ryuuji.
Quote:
Ryuuji is a great lead. Just that people give too much strength to him. He is not that strong and thats the reason why he can deal with Taiga so well.
I think your point is you want the people to see Ryuuji as a normal person because people including me raise his character. Well, this is character discussion about him. Being compared to a weak person like Shinji is very hard to accept. What do you expect?
What so hard about your comparison is, Shinji and Ryuuji have different situations. Situations mold the character of a person. So I can only compare them with your point and I think you will agree, the beginning Shinji and Ryuuji (because they are both normal that includes Kyon. But the end Shinji and Ryuuji, way opposite.
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Old 2008-12-13, 12:22   Link #148
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If you believe that to be differences then pray tell how is Kyon or Ryuuji active? If you will say them to be active and strong I can just as well 'prove' Shinji to be so as well since he also had the same situations, he also had outburst he also talked back. Juts like Ryuuuji and Kyon.

The begin Shinji and Ryuuji are actually very similar thats why I have made this comparison to begin with. So you are assuming way too much when you say that I will agree them to be opposite. I disagree.

Ryuuji had bit better past thats why he is more socially open (he does not have a father, Shinji's father abandoned him and would have been better if he was dead, but Ryuuji had a mother while Shinji's mother died before his own eyes) but he is just as passive as Shinji.

Shinji is a kind person, Ryuuji is just as kind - they both want to help people around them thats why they often shift aside when others push because it would make the situation more tensed. Yet people call Shinji a doormat because of that, while Ryuuji is just very kind. This is very unfair. Either you have to say that Shinji is not really a wuss and just too kind, or call them both a total pushovers.
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Old 2008-12-13, 14:59   Link #149
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Ryuuji is kind. But not to a certain where you can assume he's the same as Shinji's "too kind". Ryuuji is kind to people but not a pushover. (Exception is Taiga because he understands her attitude and he promised her remember Episode 2.) He's not that kind with Ami knowing her real attitude.
Shinji's a weak person. We know that already. You throw a punch to him and he will not do anything. He's a real pushover. He hates himself too much.
But we can't assess if Ryuuji has the same level of weakness as Shinji's if he didn't go through the same experience.
But did I tell you Taiga's the only person who can hurt Ryuuji without fighting back? Did you ever see anyone hurt Ryuuji except Taiga? (Ami said this he always makes an exception for Taiga) Correct me if I'm wrong, but is there anyone do slapstick things to him except Taiga? But assuming there is someone other than Taiga punch him in the face, do you think he will not do anything? We really can't say because he didn't get to that situation. So you can't say he's a pushover. (exception to this is Taiga).
He's not "too kind" or you can call doormat like Shinji.
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Old 2008-12-13, 15:14   Link #150
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Originally Posted by rave_master16 View Post
Ryuuji is kind. But not to a certain where you can assume he's the same as Shinji's "too kind". Ryuuji is kind to people but not a pushover. (Exception is Taiga because he understands her attitude and he promised her remember Episode 2.) He's not that kind with Ami knowing her real attitude.
Shinji's a weak person. We know that already. You throw a punch to him and he will not do anything. He's a real pushover. He hates himself too much.
But we can't assess if Ryuuji has the same level of weakness as Shinji's if he didn't go through the same experience.
But did I tell you Taiga's the only person who can hurt Ryuuji without fighting back? Did you ever see anyone hurt Ryuuji except Taiga? (Ami said this he always makes an exception for Taiga) Correct me if I'm wrong, but is there anyone do slapstick things to him except Taiga? But assuming there is someone other than Taiga punch him in the face, do you think he will not do anything? We really can't say because he didn't get to that situation. So you can't say he's a pushover. (exception to this is Taiga).
He's not "too kind" or you can call doormat like Shinji.
In fact, he isn't a pushover at all, even to Taiga. He's just simply a kind soul and thus tolerates her because he pities her.

Taiga has an attitude problem, but Ryuji knows and simply doesn't get mad because he knows she doesn't mean what she says.
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Old 2008-12-13, 17:24   Link #151
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So Shinji is not kind to Asuka (but is just a pushover) and he didn't want to help her, to be with her, and when she finally rejected him he didn't strangle her? Weird.

So Shinji is pushover - remind me how he was a pushover in episode 9? Because he always argued and acted against Asuka, who is actually more crazy than Taiga? Thats not the way doormats act. He stopped trying to go against her when he saw her crying in her sleep. Thats how he understood that she is not what she looks to be.

He only became a real pushover when he was broken. Ryuuji being similar to Shinji could be easily broken just as much as Shinji. Shinji is usually passive and tries to avoid conflict, the way Ryuuji does.

And if you are saying that Shinji didn't act against Touji hitting him, but how can you tell that Ryuuji would not take it in a similar fashion... No one tried to hit him in the school.

For me Ryuuji and Shinji's personalities are similar, and even part of situations are similar, the differences create other half of situations that differ a lot in their level of intensity.

Last edited by Darknemo2000; 2008-12-13 at 18:29.
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Old 2008-12-13, 19:08   Link #152
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Originally Posted by Darknemo2000 View Post
For me Ryuuji and Shinji's personalities are similar, and even part of situations are similar, the differences create other half of situations that differ a lot in their level of intensity.
I don't really see how you can compare Shinji and Ryuuji and say they are similar. Comparinig Ryuuji to Kyon I can understand, but not Shinji to Ryuuji as they aren't even in the same kind of show. If you're just saying Shinji stood up to Asuka and is passive are relatively the only things relating him to Ryuuji, then he's similar to tens of other male characters out there. At least when compared to Kyon, they have other things non-char related that are similar; type of show, setting, even the girl/guy ratio(3 girls, 2 guys). Evangelion seems mostly psychological and action, while Toradora and TMoHS are comedy/drama/slice-of-life kind of shows. This more or less goes back to what Rave was saying. Since Toradora and TMoHS are very similar in the terms mentioned above, it's more appropiate to compare Kyon and Ryuuji because of those external similarities than Shinji whose in a show that doesn't and strives on the psychological baggage practically every char is dragging.
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Old 2008-12-13, 19:30   Link #153
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Is this sort of turning into my favorite character from one series versus some another character from a different series, or is it just me?
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Old 2008-12-13, 19:33   Link #154
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The characters can still be similar even despite the differences of genres. The differences of genres strike in when we discuss the later part of situations that they get involved in but general conceptions of the characters are similar.

And as for setting Ryuuji more resembles Shinji's setting rather than Kyon's (a guy who takes care of two girls, just that in Shinji's case it is not mother but Misato and even a pet). More differences arise not from differences of Ryuuji and Shinji but rather the girsl they live with - while Ryuuji's mum and misato are rather similar in terms that they usually come back late and drink alcohol (Misato likes to drink at home though) Asuka and Taiga are rather different as Taiga is more of a klutz while Asuka is a schools idol. Yet they both are weak behind they strong masks and both Ruyuuji and Shinji notice that, thats why Ryuuji stops arguing agaisnt Taiga and Shinji against Asuka.

The characters do carry the similarities that a lot of anti-shinji guys have trouble to admit, as they percieve Shinji as a total weakling. Yet thats the picture of him in the end of the series. His general conception are similar though.

Well I would like to hear you name those tens of guys who like to cook, clean, take care of the girls around them, are too passive to really argue unless it involves something big and are kind enough to tolerate the edgy personalities that can be insulting... Please list them, I am interested.
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Old 2008-12-14, 00:19   Link #155
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He only became a real pushover when he was broken. Ryuuji being similar to Shinji could be easily broken just as much as Shinji. Shinji is usually passive and tries to avoid conflict, the way Ryuuji does.
You assume too much. You can't say Ryuuji will be the same as Shinji because they have different situations. I told you many times. You can't say Ryuuji is as passive as Shinji because Ryuuji didn't went through that hellish ride of Shinji. And Ryuuji is not as passive as you think. More of a Kyon. He's not a doormat too.
Quote:
And if you are saying that Shinji didn't act against Touji hitting him, but how can you tell that Ryuuji would not take it in a similar fashion... No one tried to hit him in the school.[
See, we won't know until that happens so don't judge him like Shinji.

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Is this sort of turning into my favorite character from one series versus some another character from a different series, or is it just me?
Somehow, It is.

Quote:
The characters do carry the similarities that a lot of anti-shinji guys have trouble to admit, as they percieve Shinji as a total weakling. Yet thats the picture of him in the end of the series. His general conception are similar though.
I told you, I can admit begin Shinji can be compared to Ryuuji. You said it as the base, he likes to cooks, tolerate bitches.
But in the end, Shinji showed a lot of things that made him a weakling. You admit that. He's a weakling after all. He showed a lot qualities that made him like that in the end.
But to judge Ryuuji just because they are doing things same does not mean he's a doormat, pushover or weak as Shinji. You assume it too much. It's like this, if Ryuuji is in Shinji's hellish ride, he will be like him.
How sure are you?

Quote:
Well I would like to hear you name those tens of guys who like to cook, clean, take care of the girls around them, are too passive to really argue unless it involves something big and are kind enough to tolerate the edgy personalities that can be insulting... Please list them, I am interested.
Typical Harem Lead Characteristics.
Wait can you list down why you said Ryuuji is a doormat or pushover?
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Old 2008-12-14, 04:28   Link #156
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I am not saying that he will be like Shinji I am saying that he has basic characteristics like Shinji. And those characteristics make them similar and their situation (partly). Notice that you underlined only half of the description please underline whole sentence and then say if it really is typical herem leads characteristics.

Ryuuji is a passive, too kind for his own good guy, similarly like Shinji, he like Shinji argues back, they can both burst mostly if it involves someones elses good, good not his (too small ego to do that) , and they are both pretty much obedient to the girls with bigger ego's but they both understand that there is more behind their masks so are willing to deal with that just like willing to do the chores and cooking because they like, yet we count Shinji as a total wimp and wuss while Ryuuji is not even if the similarities are visible. Thats why I am saying that Ryuuji is weaker than you give him credit for. Or if we count hims strong personality that is too kind and too passive, then you should say that Shinji is not a weakling as well, he just ended up in a horrible situation eventually were everyone broke.
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Old 2008-12-14, 05:19   Link #157
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And I'd say look at episodes 1-10. One episide doesnt make it better. Shinji (from NGE) also had his own moments but one a whole he was still a coward. Ryuuji is still a doormat as well.
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Ryuuji is not really spectacular hero and no he does not have that much of courage nor the will to stand up against anyone when that involves his ego.
How sure are you about this?
Quote:
I think that people give him too much credit in this situation. He is made to do things, yes he doesn't mind them at all, but the fact is that even if he minded he would still get the stuff forced upon him. He is not an equal to Taiga, just like Shinji was not an equal to Asuka, and even though they both have other motives to be so passive it doesn't change the fact that they both have very small egos and are doormats for the majority of time.
Quote:
Ryuuji could never function so well with Taiga if he was more like Saito and not a natural doormat.
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So Shinji is not kind to Asuka (but is just a pushover) and he didn't want to help her, to be with her, and when she finally rejected him he didn't strangle her? Weird.

So Shinji is pushover - remind me how he was a pushover in episode 9? Because he always argued and acted against Asuka, who is actually more crazy than Taiga? Thats not the way doormats act. He stopped trying to go against her when he saw her crying in her sleep. Thats how he understood that she is not what she looks to be.

He only became a real pushover when he was broken. Ryuuji being similar to Shinji could be easily broken just as much as Shinji. Shinji is usually passive and tries to avoid conflict, the way Ryuuji does.
Ok I'm going to ask you now since it started to this.
Is Ryuuji a doormat or not? Is Shinji a doormat or pushover or not?
And why are leveling Ryuuji to Shinji when he's not that doormat as Shinji.?
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Old 2008-12-14, 05:49   Link #158
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Originally Posted by rave_master16 View Post
How sure are you about this?
Simply because thats what we see in the anime for 10 episodes. He is being pushed around by Taiga, and since Shinji is pushed around the same way by Asuka we call Shinji a doormat then Ryuuji is just as much doormat. You say that Ryuuji let her do that because he understands her, well the same way goes for Shinji. Since we all call Shinji a doormat then the same should be applied to Ryuuji as the situation is strikingly similar.

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Originally Posted by rave_master16 View Post
Is Ryuuji a doormat or not? Is Shinji a doormat or pushover or not?
And why are leveling Ryuuji to Shinji when he's not that doormat as Shinji?
Because they are similar. Their characteristics are similar, even they starting positions are similar (more similar than Kyon's actually) yet we all agree that Shinji is doormat and yet somehow Ryuuji is not when their actions upon similar situations are similar just as much.

The parts that you underline just reveals the contradictions of the situation we regard both Shinji and Ryuuji. Their situation and characteristics are similar and yet in one case (Shinji) he is considered to be a doormat and in other (Ryuuji) he is not.

If upon this acts and characteristics we decide that Shinji as doormat then Ryuuji is a doormat just as much.

Personally I consider them both a doormats. And thats why they can function so well with the girls like Taiga or Asuka.

Maybe I got the wrong impression of what the doormat is and you and no one else considers Shinji a doormat or pushover but rather an adapting person, then yes, Ryuuji is so as well. But as far as I understood a Shinji is considered to be a weak pushover and doormat, but then you cannot stand up for Ryuuji's favor that much.

Last edited by Darknemo2000; 2008-12-14 at 06:02.
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Old 2008-12-14, 05:57   Link #159
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Are you sure that Ryuuji is the same as doormatness as Shinji? Ryuuji is only doormat to Taiga. I said this, Taiga's exception. And now after episode eleven, we saw a different Ryuuji who can actually put up a force to Taiga.
But really, Shinji's lack of self-esteem makes him passive.
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Old 2008-12-14, 06:17   Link #160
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And he was about to apologize wasn't he. Remember that Shinji had these bursts out as well and ended up apologizing for them. I do not see much of difference. And who else dominates Shinji? Misato? Her domination upon him is like Ami's over Ryuuji, fools out with him a lot. Just that Misato has more authority behind herself. Shinji's father? He is not really forcing Shinji - he says either do what has use for me, or get out. It is Shinji's sick love to his father that dominates him. Is he dominated in his class? Doesn't seem so, the only time he was when Touji attacked him, but again Touji became his best friend eventually. And it is unclear how Ryuuji would act if he was being attacked.

And Ryuuji has a high self-esteem? Because of his father and his looks? Somehow I do not think so. He does seem to have a complex with this specially in the beginning of the series.

P.S. We should stop this. It is obvious that you and I like to argue a lot and have a the last word upon this, but it seems that neither will convince the other and just end up this thread getting locked up like Ami's was.
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