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Old 2004-02-15, 18:31   Link #21
Superchop
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zalas
I don't really think there is a law against emulation. As long as you didn't infringe on copyrights when creating the emulator, there shouldn't be problems. This is why playstation emulators like ePSXe and the Saturn emulator Satourne don't come with BIOS images. There is a law against downloading ROMs/game images. However, I believe for older systems it's now legal to back up your old cartridges, provided you own them.
That's basically what me and JAppi were talking about...but since there are laws for everything and at the same time exceptions...it's just one big confusing thing...

for example...it is legal to make backups...for certain things..but not others....but at the same time certain laws say it's illegal to make backups of any kind for any reason...while at the same time..there's a the fair use thing that pretty much says you can make backups of the things you own to protect your investment....

but nothing is made clear...and it probably never will be....but like i said before in this thread...even if there are laws saying you can or can't..it's not gonna stop people from doing it anyway.
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Old 2004-02-17, 23:35   Link #22
Aquillion
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These things seem confusing at first, but it isn't really when you get down to it. First, emulation itself is technically legal, at least in the United States. This has been decided in court before (VGS and bleem! won their respective cases, for instance); companies do not automatically have the right to force people to buy one product (e.g. a playstation) in order to use a second product (e.g. a game). Putting aside the highly contentious issue of whether an EULA is a legally binding contract or not, one that prohibited you from using third-party hardware or software with a console would probably not be enforcible.

But don't go jumping out to download a PSX emulator quite yet. Emulators are only legal as long as no laws were broken in creating them; most PSX emulators would need a copy of the PSX bios to run, and that's copyrighted. Furthermore, while the DMCA doesn't directly impact your right to make backup copies (and indeed technically protects it), its poorly-worded anticircumvention clauses have effectively eliminated that right in many cases. For example, it's legal for you to make a backup of as SNES cartridge that you legally own; but the copier you'd need to make your perfectly legal backup is classified as a circumvention device. Likewise, I'm allowed to make a copy of Game X (which I just purchased) and play it on my computer, but if Game X contains some sort of copy-protection then I wouldn't be allowed to break it, not even to exercise the fair-use rights that I supposedly have.

In effect, the DMCA allows any software or hardware company to write their own laws with regards to their product by including a restriction and claiming that it is intended to reduce illegal piracy; even if you want to break it to do something that you would normally be legally allowed to do (like play your legally-purchased, region-coded DVD on a Linux player), you would still be violating the DMCA. I believe many challenges to the DMCA are still in progress, so this could change.

In any case, downloading copyrighted roms, disk images, etc. online is never legal without permission from the original copyright holder. If you just want to play a legally-purchased console game on your PC without violating any copyrights or violating the DMCA's anticircumvention clauses, though, then you're 100% in the clear; in this regard running emulators are more legal then, say, downloading copyrighted anime online without the consent of the copyright holder, which is never legal.

Given how difficult it is to use an emulator legally, though, it's not entirely surprising that this site discourages links to them in their forum.

(Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer! Much of the above may be outdated or just plain wrong. Don't mock meeee!)
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Old 2004-02-18, 04:35   Link #23
DekaMaster
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurara
I don't see anything wrong with emulation of any kind..

I own over 200 ROMS and 10 emulators ^^;;; So I'd be a big hypocrit if I said it was wrong. However, I have to say that I mainly play outdated games.. [ SNES, NES, Gameboy, etc ] I do have some GBA roms, so I'm guilty of playing games that aren't old. But I do own a GBA and I would very much like to have the actual games instead of ROMS.. And by all means, I would never stop playing video games on consoles just to use emulators. And I HONESTLY doubt anyone does this....
Well first of all you do not own any roms. Since roms are illegal you do not own them. And yes people download roms for the same reason they download liscensed anime so they don't have to pay for it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurara
For the old games problem.. Yeah, it's true. You can find those games in video game stores. But they are very, very rare. Even PSX games are really hard to find, except the popular titles like FF7 or FFT. I've been trying to find the Suikoden 1 CD for a while.. I never found it in any stores. I've only been able to find it on ebay.. And no one sold it under 30$ US, which is way expensive for an old game.. Specially since a few years ago, the game cost about 20$.. it's the same thing for a lot of PSX games that I've tried to find. They're impossible to find except at an expensive price.. So imagine SNES or NES games. It's even worse. A lot of games that were fairly popular or more rare games are impossible to find now. Some of the REALLY popular games are like old relics now so you can find them for horrible prices on ebay and things like that.. I know it might sound like a bad excuse.. But to me it's a very good excuse, since not everyone can pay that amount for an old game.. And not everyone can even buy things on ebay. Also, there's no reason why it would hurt the industry to download an old game. Specially if the game was made 6 years ago or more.. Because most people don't even buy old games even if they don't use emulators...
Where did you dream some of that up? Don't speak for "people" when you personaly don't have the money to pay for games. Check pawn shops and online stores for all the older games. Not having them money is not an excuse.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurara
Another important thing to remember is that Emulators are very different than pirated games. Pirated games and other programs are on the right platform. They're games that were made for the computer. Roms aren't on the right platform, even if you have a control pad. The experience of a game can never be fully translated into a rom.. The graphics are always a little less good, the screen is often smaller, the game can lag a lot more and have more flaws.. And the gameplay is often not as good. Specially in platform, fighting and adventure games. x_x It makes a big difference.. And just having it on your computer instead of having an actual cardridge is different to me. I'd much rather have all the games.. And I'm pretty sure that most gamers feel that way too...
ALL roms are pirated. Even if you own the game it is still illegal to have roms. And you are wrong about the rest. Most emulation is near spot on now. I do agree that nothing beats sitting down in front of a tv and kicking back with your console of choice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurara
And like everyone said, a lot of old games aren't even available in America and weren't translated. That's a really important reason... Because a lot of really good games weren't translated, yet some people have translated them as roms...
Yes they have translated them. That does not make them any less illegal.
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Old 2004-02-18, 05:38   Link #24
Prince of Chronics
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurara
The experience of a game can never be fully translated into a rom.. The graphics are always a little less good, the screen is often smaller, the game can lag a lot more and have more flaws.. And the gameplay is often not as good. Specially in platform, fighting and adventure games. x_x It makes a big difference.. And just having it on your computer instead of having an actual cardridge is different to me.
.
a modified xbox can run all sorts of emulators, so its easy to relive that experience of sitting in front of a tv and playing those old school games... playing Super Punch Out on my xbox gives me the same exact experience as if i was playing it on my snes.....
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Old 2004-02-18, 13:50   Link #25
zalas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KingRanger
ALL roms are pirated. Even if you own the game it is still illegal to have roms. And you are wrong about the rest. Most emulation is near spot on now. I do agree that nothing beats sitting down in front of a tv and kicking back with your console of choice.
Technically you are allowed a backup of something you own provided it's an older console. I forget the exact details of that law.
Quote:
Yes they have translated them. That does not make them any less illegal.
And most respectable translators don't release full games, just patches. And the translated Wind demo is okay in my book because the demo was originally released to the public. The patched games you find on the net are idiots who put them up.
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Old 2004-02-20, 05:30   Link #26
MrMonkey
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Regardless of whether its legal or not, I personally don't think its "wrong" to download ROM images of old games, for outdated systems like SNES, genesis etc.
It's not hurting the industry, since the respective companies no longer profit from those games anymore, so emulation lets people enjoy those old classics that are now hard to get hold of. I certainly don't think its any worse that downloading a fansubbed anime at least. I believe that downloading games that are still in manufacture and are still turning a profit for thier creators is wrong though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Prince of Chronics
a modified xbox can run all sorts of emulators, so its easy to relive that experience of sitting in front of a tv and playing those old school games... playing Super Punch Out on my xbox gives me the same exact experience as if i was playing it on my snes.....
Exactly what I was going to say. I love my xbox In fact, in most cases it can give you a better experience than the original. I can save wherever I want (handy for those old genesis games with no save feature at all), I can "fast forward" through scenes I might not want to watch, and I can apply all kinds of graphics filters to improve the visuals. Not to mention being able to access a whole host of games without having to change cartridges.
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