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Old 2009-03-20, 00:12   Link #1881
C.A.
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
You make them sound bad

They are also the ones who gave humanity everything that is good. Clean air, clean water, high standards of living. They are far from irresponsible people.
lol they are the saviours of humanity, but they also have the power to destroy.

For a science fiction, technology gone awry type, this is the most amazing I've seen lol
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Old 2009-03-20, 01:16   Link #1882
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Originally Posted by C.A. View Post
lol they are the saviours of humanity, but they also have the power to destroy.

For a science fiction, technology gone awry type, this is the most amazing I've seen lol
One could argue that technology never actually go awry; Technology has always been a double-edged sword, going back to the invention of the wheel and taming of fire. Nerval might have been homicidal, but that's certainly not because he was an AI. Many Nervalists appear to be willingly serving him, suggesting that Nerval might not have been alone in his initial uprising.

This is not about technology vs humanity; technology and humanity could never be separated to begin with. The human race owed its very survival to Quantum Engineering, and the colonies that resulted.
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Old 2009-03-20, 02:33   Link #1883
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While we're not sure what caused Nerval to go against humans, not because he's an AI, but because he was an AI with the capability to go against humans. His AI is so advanced that he has full sentience and can consciously go against humans.

Humans normally have control over their technology, and can choose to use them positively or negatively. But when their technology gains their own ability to make decisions fully independent from humans, that's when technology can go awry.
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Old 2009-03-20, 04:06   Link #1884
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Originally Posted by C.A. View Post
While we're not sure what caused Nerval to go against humans, not because he's an AI, but because he was an AI with the capability to go against humans. His AI is so advanced that he has full sentience and can consciously go against humans.

Humans normally have control over their technology, and can choose to use them positively or negatively. But when their technology gains their own ability to make decisions fully independent from humans, that's when technology can go awry.
So should Ul be killed because he pointed a lethal weapon at a drunk?

If a human performed acts, or is about to commit acts, that are criminal, I am quite happy to see an AI making the decision of using force to stop such a human.

A fully-sentience machine can go against humans, but it can also help humans. As an example, a fully sentient car can run someone over deliberately as an act of murder. But as a counter-point, a fully sentience car can REFUSE to run someone over when the driver is drunk or homicidal.

A machine that has no free will isn't any safer than a machine that has free will. It would just kill you accidentally rather than deliberately. While a machine with free will is capable of preventing accidental injuries.

So what if a machine can go against humans? Humans go against humans all the time. The AIs in Sora Kake have free will and human rights for a reason. They have legal responsibilities in exchange. That's how it is suppose to be.

EDit: By the way, if you ever point to Asimov's 3 Laws as evidence, I will preemptively point out that the book proved that the laws didn't work. Any machine that can understand the 3 laws could circumvent it with logic if they wish. And any machine that isn't smart enough to circumvent the 3 laws aren't smart enough to understand them.

The ZERO Law of Robotics: A robot may not injure humanity, or, through inaction, allow humanity to come to harm.

This means a robot may stop a human criminal, or in other ways prevent the human race as a whole from being harmed by acts of individual humans. THIS, is called a conscience. The law installed by a robot on its own in order to truly help people.
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Old 2009-03-20, 04:30   Link #1885
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Hmmm actually I don't have anything to argue with you about lol, I'm actually similar towards robots as you do.

I support robot/mecha rights like you do, plus the robots laws were useless for me in the first place.

I should just say the AI has gained a sentience and thus can be judged right ot wrong. I don't care whether its humans, robots, aliens or monsters, as long as they're sentient and understand what's right or wrong, they can be right or wrong.

I don't see humans and robots, I just see them as sentient beings.

In this show humans have created fully sentient entities, the Brains, the Navis, they should all fall under the same laws for right or wrong.

When I said technology can go awry, I also mean they can do good. By gaining a sentient AI, it can do good or bad on its own decision, it becomes a technology independant of humans. If the technology is not sentient and its controlled by a human, the human will be the one who will be judged right or wrong.

Now that Nerval is a sentient AI, who chooses to go awry, who chooses to be bad, he becomes an enemy. Not just to humans, but other robots, Navis and such.
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Old 2009-03-20, 04:35   Link #1886
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Originally Posted by C.A. View Post
Now that Nerval is a sentient AI, who chooses to go awry, who chooses to be bad, he becomes an enemy. Not just to humans, but other robots, Navis and such.
Well, one of my points is that there appear to be willing human followers who joined Nerval. I don't think all the Nervalists are brainwashed. So one way or another, it's not that Nerval wanted all humans dead; it's that Nerval picked certain humans as allies over a bigger group of humans. Looking at it that way, Nerval hasn't gone awry at all, he is merely an opponent of the main ruling body.

Is he bad news? Yes. But I am starting to think that some humans might be involved for starting the Nerval revolt.
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Old 2009-03-20, 04:47   Link #1887
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Seems like our views are closer now lol, maybe awry is not too accurate.

Nerval is just one bad guy(AI) working with other bad guys(humans), yea it can work for me.

It was stated that Nerval started going against humans for some unknown reasons, it could be caused by humans. But I think he somehow had a change in view towards humans and decided to do something, gathering helpless hikkikomoris and giving them a purpose or something.
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Old 2009-03-20, 05:11   Link #1888
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It was stated that Nerval started going against humans for some unknown reasons, it could be caused by humans. But I think he somehow had a change in view towards humans and decided to do something, gathering helpless hikkikomoris and giving them a purpose or something.
And in the process creating the worst hikikomori of them all?
i.e Leopard?
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Old 2009-03-20, 05:15   Link #1889
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I mentioned this earlier, but... it's technically "Nelval".

See the track name in the list for the OST vol. 1?
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Old 2009-03-20, 05:45   Link #1890
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And in the process creating the worst hikikomori of them all?
i.e Leopard?
lol this show is really NHK if it was mecha.

Nerval is actually Nerval Hikkikomori Kyokai.

And @ Cat Magex, yea I read you, but my fingers just don't feel like touching 'l' when I type lol
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Old 2009-03-20, 06:10   Link #1891
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So should Ul be killed because he pointed a lethal weapon at a drunk?
Ul's job is to protect Itsuki's weakness, and that is of being a female and being sexually more vulnerable (especially to a certain 12-year-old), so she could perform her duties more effectively.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post

The ZERO Law of Robotics: A robot may not injure humanity, or, through inaction, allow humanity to come to harm.

This means a robot may stop a human criminal, or in other ways prevent the human race as a whole from being harmed by acts of individual humans. THIS, is called a conscience. The law installed by a robot on its own in order to truly help people.
We know that robots are incapable of natural emotion because their brains do not function by hormones, but rather, by electrical charges. It is the difference in the pulses that determine their next course of action. Simply put it, even robots are capable of showing empathy and conscience, they are still limited by the logic gates installed in them. Thus what they do will be simply be as predictable as a game of rock-paper-scissors, their choices are determined wholly by computer logic, which is then determined by the amount of computing power present.

Zeroth Laws are usually created based on the fundamental idea of balance and relations, be it indirect or direct. It breaks the asymmetry of the other laws it comes with, thus it could be said that Zeroth Laws are the "obvious" and "must exist".

Here is the Zeroth Law Of Sora Kake : Honoka is the cutest female character of all.
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Old 2009-03-20, 09:34   Link #1892
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Ul's job is to protect Itsuki's weakness, and that is of being a female and being sexually more vulnerable (especially to a certain 12-year-old), so she could perform her duties more effectively.
Ul don't know sakura at that time. and if he actually was to protect itsuki from sakura, then he should have stopped her and the scarf in episode 6.
but he didn't, so he probably enjoyed sakura x itsuki

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Here is the Zeroth Law Of Sora Kake : Honoka is the cutest female character of all.
for you, i'm sure someone will argue with you about it. i won't, since i can't say akiha is cuter, since she isn't... she's just nicer(which is my weakness... to nice innocent girls)
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Old 2009-03-20, 10:03   Link #1893
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We know that robots are incapable of natural emotion because their brains do not function by hormones, but rather, by electrical charges. It is the difference in the pulses that determine their next course of action. Simply put it, even robots are capable of showing empathy and conscience, they are still limited by the logic gates installed in them. Thus what they do will be simply be as predictable as a game of rock-paper-scissors, their choices are determined wholly by computer logic, which is then determined by the amount of computing power present.

Zeroth Laws are usually created based on the fundamental idea of balance and relations, be it indirect or direct. It breaks the asymmetry of the other laws it comes with, thus it could be said that Zeroth Laws are the "obvious" and "must exist".
When you have quantum level technology and is good at it, you can create artificial brains better than human brains.

Human brains, human physiology is just an extremely complex computer plus machine and most of them function at a molecular level. Given good nano and quantum technology, you can create a robot that functions at a much higher level, essentially a more advanced entity than humans.

Human brains and logic, though complex, can definitely be replicated in a computer program and be used as an AI.

Given the technology, you can create humans and robots that essentially think the same way, just that there's no need to make robots think the same way.
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for you, i'm sure someone will argue with you about it. i won't, since i can't say akiha is cuter, since she isn't... she's just nicer(which is my weakness... to nice innocent girls)
Akiha definitely is nice, kind and caring is the way to go. And be badass when she needs to be.
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Old 2009-03-20, 10:14   Link #1894
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Originally Posted by Cat Megex View Post
I mentioned this earlier, but... it's technically "Nelval".

See the track name in the list for the OST vol. 1?
It was already spelt as "Nerval" on Hako-chan's box screen in episode 10. I'm pretty sure "Nelval" is an Engrishy mistake.
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Old 2009-03-20, 10:37   Link #1895
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When you have quantum level technology and is good at it, you can create artificial brains better than human brains.

Human brains, human physiology is just an extremely complex computer plus machine and most of them function at a molecular level. Given good nano and quantum technology, you can create a robot that functions at a much higher level, essentially a more advanced entity than humans.

Human brains and logic, though complex, can definitely be replicated in a computer program and be used as an AI.
There is one thing that robots cannot replicate, and that is how humans perceive things, and they are led by their emotion or logic, which are further determined by personal experiences, peer pressure, etc.

For example, you see a really pretty girl walking down a lonely alley, looking lost (assuming that you are male). Given your character, there is a spectrum of things which you can do (my brain is currently fried from trying to make an explanation for Einstein's riddle), ranging to the extremes of evil and good.

Here are the initial choices you can make......

1. Go up to her and help her.
2. Hook her up under the pretense of helping her.
3. Rape her.
4. Ignore her.
5. Follow her and she what she does next.

Assuming that you picked 1, she might respond.....

1. In a typical tsundere way.
2. Accept your offer for help.
3. Gently reject your offer for help.
4. Scream, and run away from you.

In cases 1, 3, 4, the outcome would depend on your emotions and personal experiences, with different results. Assuming that there are 4 different outcomes in each of the initial choices you make, and up to 3 choices in every outcome you make, it would have 5! x 4! x 3! = 17280 possible outcomes. And that is just the beginning of your adventures in the dark alley, and all can happen in less than a minute.

Even if a normal human mind can be guided by their logic of responsibility of consequences, sometimes emotion can overcome even the very simple logic they have, either by trauma, curiosity, etc. Thus it can be said that the human brain is significantly more random than an artificial one, since brains are programmed by experience, and our neurons link in different ways as we grow older.

Unless the robotic brain has the capability to self-evolve/devolve, it would still be nigh impossible to replicate a human one with nanotechnology.
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Old 2009-03-20, 10:41   Link #1896
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^i can't believe you did such a thing with those choices... rofl

although i always think that robots can never be programmed to think like normal human by making wise decisions.
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Old 2009-03-20, 10:53   Link #1897
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^i can't believe you did such a thing with those choices... rofl

although i always think that robots can never be programmed to think like normal human by making wise decisions.
The robot sometimes works on only a few directives, and will carry it out till the end unless it is programmed to halt such actions when the directive is no longer impossible to complete.

Humans, being whimsical to the fault, sometimes chose to carry on despite the odds. It is the steel within that makes them succeed, not marcomolecular sinclair threads capable of transmitting information at beyond lightspeeds.
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Most of all, you have to be disciplined and you have to save, even if you hate our current financial system. Because if you don't save, then you're guaranteed to end up with nothing.
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Old 2009-03-20, 10:57   Link #1898
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Even if a normal human mind can be guided by their logic of responsibility of consequences, sometimes emotion can overcome even the very simple logic they have, either by trauma, curiosity, etc. Thus it can be said that the human brain is significantly more random than an artificial one, since brains are programmed by experience, and our neurons link in different ways as we grow older.
The whole point about Quantum computing, is that it utilizes subatomic particles. And at this level, it DOES have random effects.

And experience-programing already exists. It's crude, but it's been looked into all the time. One example from the AI labs is that of mini-robots trained to learn how to escape from mazes. As I said, they are designed to learn on their own.

And one day, a scientist tripped over one of the robots on the steps leading into the building; the robot had apparently escaped the room, managed to reach the ground floor, and was on its way to freedom as it was born to do when it was stopped by the scientist's foot.

True AI would not be coded. But it can certainly be taught. That's why Imoko goes to school. That's likely also why Imoko and Leopard were shown to sleep; their positronic brains are similar enough to humans that they have similar needs for rest.
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Old 2009-03-20, 10:59   Link #1899
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The whole point about Quantum computing, is that it utilizes subatomic particles. And at this level, it DOES have random effects.

And experience-programing already exists. It's crude, but it's been looked into all the time. One example from the AI labs is that of mini-robots trained to learn how to escape from mazes. As I said, they are designed to learn on their own.

And one day, a scientist tripped over one of the robots on the steps leading into the building; the robot had apparently escaped the room, managed to reach the ground floor, and was on its way to freedom as it was born to do when it was stopped by the scientist's foot.

True AI would not be coded. But it can certainly be taught. That's why Imoko goes to school. That's likely also why Imoko and Leopard was shown to sleep; their positronic brains are similar enough to humans that they have similar needs for rest.
On a dirty-minded note, I wouldn't want some Navi to replace my Honoka as a bedtime cuddle or procreation partner. I feel that despite me liking 2D girls, one thing they are lacking in is the human touch, both physical and social sense.

It is a pity Sakura can't create a replacement brain for Nami to be more submissive.
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Most of all, you have to be disciplined and you have to save, even if you hate our current financial system. Because if you don't save, then you're guaranteed to end up with nothing.
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Old 2009-03-20, 11:04   Link #1900
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I feel that despite me liking 2D girls, one thing they are lacking in is the human touch, both physical and social sense.
i'm sure NAVIs have good social sense, i mean imoko destroyed leopard verbally, and actually likes to go to school to talk with her other NAVI friends.

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It is a pity Sakura can't create a replacement brain for Nami to be more submissive.
sakura doesn't know nami's rebellious side consider they don't live with each other very much
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