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Old 2008-10-28, 04:37   Link #1
getfresh
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Subtitle Styling

It appears to me that these days typesetters have become far too concerned with karaokes and sfx, forgetting that typesetting started primarily from and is most effected by static styling. Over concern with standing out rather than the purpose of typesetting (fitting in) has begun to make fansubs look like some type of cheap infomercial/billboard advertisement. I'm starting this thread to focus on STYLING, not karaoke or AE overlay animation. Keep it on topic and share your styling opinions, experience, help, etc...


I'll kick it off by talking about a subject I find interesting since it is one that is very important to styling. Font matching. It has become the common belief that to match a font you must use the English character set of the actual kanji font used in the anime. This couldn't be more wrong imo. Just because one character set matches does not mean the others in that font for different languages are appropriate. The majority of the time with English character sets in a kanji font you find that the characters are mono-spaced. Mono-spacing on English is some ugly shit generally. Also there may be 10-20 kanji fonts that all match the one in the anime yet have different English character sets or set encodings.

I personally have found that while checking the matching kanji font than looking at it's English typeface is a good starting point, it is not the end all. More often than not I find that an English based font much better represents the style and motif of the kanji typeface you wish to mimic. Why is this? It is pretty simple actually. The English typefaces are designed to look like what a Japanese person believes it would look like in representation of the kanji. A Native English speaking person perceives how the characters should represent themselves differently. Also the English typefaces a normally made with much less attention to detail and are designed to _STAND OUT_ when used within a body of kanji. They were never designed to be a primary set, or a set that is used for continuous dialog. The few kanji fonts I have found that work are the ones that are default, system standard, internet standard fonts. This is because these character sets were designed by not just one person speaking one language, but by a group of people attempting to adhere to the standards of each character sets native language so that each set will work fluidly in the language it is representing.

Last edited by getfresh; 2008-10-28 at 05:30.
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Old 2008-10-28, 04:57   Link #2
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didn't we already have this thread
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17:43:13 <~deculture> Also, TheFluff, you are so fucking slowpoke.jpg that people think we dropped the DVD's.
17:43:16 <~deculture> nice job, fag!

01:04:41 < Plorkyeran> it was annoying to typeset so it should be annoying to read
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Old 2008-10-28, 05:23   Link #3
getfresh
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I had a thread on a guide that was nothing more than that. But if you are on that kick make sure to mention that in all 20 encoding threads while you are at it ^^.
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Old 2008-10-28, 05:49   Link #4
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Font matching is by far not the biggest issue with typesetting right now. It's the new know-it-all typesetters that forget the little things. Stupid mistakes like mistaking a largish shadow for an outline can easily be avoided, but they happen all the time. Another big slip up is colour matching. Stupid typesetters like to use Aegisub's colourpicker. Great. It takes on pixel in a range of many, so overall it doesn't match. The wise typesetter would be using some sort of external colour sampling tool, I forget the one most of the people I know sue but it takes a colour range and works out the average/what the human eye sees, and returns the best value to use. It's not difficult, the kcolourpicker can do it, but that won't work for all you windows users. The most annoying thing for me though is fades. The encoder in me shouts every time I see one, USE SECTIONAL FADING. You could do it manually in layers for each section, or use the included ASS alpha/time method. It's on the main ASS tags page, why don't you people use it? D:

I'm done.

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Old 2008-10-28, 07:22   Link #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by getfresh View Post
I'm starting this thread to focus on STYLING, not karaoke or AE overlay animation. Keep it on topic and share your styling opinions, experience, help, etc...
But most of the styling I do is in After Effects (except the font for dialogue.. but choosing that is just a one time thing).

Quote:
Originally Posted by getfresh View Post
The majority of the time with English character sets in a kanji font you find that the characters are mono-spaced. Mono-spacing on English is some ugly shit generally. Also there may be 10-20 kanji fonts that all match the one in the anime yet have different English character sets or set encodings.
DFPGothic and DFGGothic are not monospaced, DFGothic is.. also.. welcome to the 21st century where there are tools that easily convert a monospaced japanese font to something that looks normal for latin alphabet. (Still not perfect though, but 99% of the people don't notice that). Also.. DFPHSMincho is different from DFPMincho eventhough the kanji look almost exactly the same; the latin alphabet is clearly different though (I prefer DFPHSMincho because it gives the same feeling).

Quote:
Originally Posted by getfresh View Post
I personally have found that while checking the matching kanji font than looking at it's English typeface is a good starting point, it is not the end all. More often than not I find that an English based font much better represents the style and motif of the kanji typeface you wish to mimic.
Except for some special cases, I use 'normal' English fonts too.. Handwriting fonts, (Maru)Gothic; all looks better when using normal english font imo. Some special cases however do require the japanese font (as i said.. i think mincho needs the jap font).

On the case of styling, I chose a font for the dialogue of some random anime where the lowercase 'L' and uppercase "I" look almost the same, and now in ep11 the word "Ill" appears. Didnt make me very happy.. I guess I'll have to find fonts with more a distinctive l and I next time
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Old 2008-10-28, 08:04   Link #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dj_tjerk View Post
On the case of styling, I chose a font for the dialogue of some random anime where the lowercase 'L' and uppercase "I" look almost the same, and now in ep11 the word "Ill" appears. Didnt make me very happy.. I guess I'll have to find fonts with more a distinctive l and I next time
lol,I hate that shit. Or the classic no extended punctuation sets heh. I also hate when you find an awesome font and its caps or lowercase only.
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Old 2008-10-28, 09:49   Link #7
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I hate it when you find an awesome font, and then discover that, no, your editor is not stupid - your font does not have any punctuation...
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Old 2008-10-28, 12:24   Link #8
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- gg's long dash: {\fscx200}-
- Menclave's note box: A (with fansubBlock.ttf)

also, what's this "sectional fading"? :S

(note that by 's I mean the first group I saw using mentioned method)
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Old 2008-10-28, 13:15   Link #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edogawaconan View Post
- gg's long dash: {\fscx200}-
- Menclave's note box: A (with fansubBlock.ttf)

also, what's this "sectional fading"? :S

(note that by 's I mean the first group I saw using mentioned method)

Most fonts with all common punctuation also have em-dashes (long dash), they are just in the utf-8 character set.

The first note boxes were don't either by trankten for R-B's Witch Hunter Robin, or Psychology101 for A-E's TNK.

I have no idea what sectional fading means exactly, if I could see a clip or some code that would be nice.
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Old 2008-10-28, 13:21   Link #10
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My guess is that's it's yet another synonym for "lunar-style" :P
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Old 2008-10-28, 13:28   Link #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dj_tjerk View Post
My guess is that's it's yet another synonym for "lunar-style" :P
But he said "fading" so that doesn't really make much sense. I was thinking it had something to do with using different alpha level/time indexes for fades on each of the planes of the type. Or that by letter fading...

But any way you look at it that has next to nothing to do with styling. None of those things did really.
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Old 2008-10-28, 18:08   Link #12
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Set either Ramp Up, Ramp Down, Smooth, Round, and triangle in selector(1).advanced.shape in the text.animator

Pick selector(1).start=0 in the beginning
Pick selector(1).start=100 at the end
Pick selector(1).end=100 constant
Add property.opacity to a different value from your default (100).
set selector(1).advanced.mode to Character or Word.

Then you've got a sectional fade

Wait, sorry--I just had to say that; I've spent way too much time on AFX in the last few weeks

*goes away to become useless again*
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Old 2008-10-28, 19:04   Link #13
getfresh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pichu View Post
Set either Ramp Up, Ramp Down, Smooth, Round, and triangle in selector(1).advanced.shape in the text.animator

Pick selector(1).start=0 in the beginning
Pick selector(1).start=100 at the end
Pick selector(1).end=100 constant
Add property.opacity to a different value from your default (100).
set selector(1).advanced.mode to Character or Word.

Then you've got a sectional fade

Wait, sorry--I just had to say that; I've spent way too much time on AFX in the last few weeks

*goes away to become useless again*
Holy crap... pichu... you made a statement without any emo attached 0o.
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Old 2008-10-29, 02:06   Link #14
dj_tjerk
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*slaps pichu*

What did I tell you about Ramp Up and Ramp Down.. >_> Use Offset for that (-100 -> 100, or more precise, -end -> 100) and set begin and end to constant. Otherwise some characters/words will always be invisible.

Last edited by dj_tjerk; 2008-10-29 at 07:20.
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Old 2008-10-29, 02:31   Link #15
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Just to clarify, by sectional fading I was refering to the a1/2/3/4, t1/2/3/4 extensions of the fade function. For example, a show has some signs denoting the character's location. It looks like a regular fade in and out on the official sign, but turns out to have an uneven rate at which the transparency of it changes. Most typesetting I've seen would just ignore that, but it looks tacky. Is it that difficult to set multiple alpha's and times to have the sub fade in sync with the official sign? I don't think so, but it seems a lot of people do. It's the difference between passable typesetting and nice typesetting.

E~
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Old 2008-10-29, 04:49   Link #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emess View Post
Just to clarify, by sectional fading I was refering to the a1/2/3/4, t1/2/3/4 extensions of the fade function. For example, a show has some signs denoting the character's location. It looks like a regular fade in and out on the official sign, but turns out to have an uneven rate at which the transparency of it changes. Most typesetting I've seen would just ignore that, but it looks tacky. Is it that difficult to set multiple alpha's and times to have the sub fade in sync with the official sign? I don't think so, but it seems a lot of people do. It's the difference between passable typesetting and nice typesetting.

E~
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Old 2008-10-29, 06:12   Link #17
getfresh
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ever tried extending the end time for your onscreen subtitle to 1 frame past the onscreen you are trying to match the fade of while also increasing the duration of the fade out's time accordingly ;p. You will find the result very interesting out I'm sure ^^.

BTW: I just use \fad(t1,t2) 99% of the time...

There is, in my experience at least, almost never a logarithmic fade duration time. Over complicating the situation is the trap most ppl fall in to. With SSA/ASS generally there is a much simpler solution. Also, the more overrides you use, the more mucked up something will look in the end.
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Old 2008-10-29, 10:07   Link #18
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also older vsfilter.dll's implementation is kinda broken...
should be fixed by now but god knows how many broken vsfilter.dll are still being used.

back to original topic,
I just use whatever I think match (more or less), even if it's not exact same for romaji part (screw it). IMO the most important factor is to make sure the type matches (serif, sans-serif, monospace, etc)...
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Old 2008-10-29, 13:48   Link #19
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Indeed, he already started a thread like this one before:

http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=53934 (Fansub typeset styling 101)

As for me, I like taking challenges. I went on scripting that Karaoke script, not because I want to make decent Karaoke, but because I want to do something that no one else had ever done before: Templated AFX Karaoke. SRSLY, why can't people understand?

Styling these days has gotten very monotonous, so yes, I've grown bored of it. It was fun 3-4 years ago when I got into Fansubbing.
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Old 2008-10-29, 15:50   Link #20
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Originally Posted by pichu View Post
Indeed, he already started a thread like this one before:

http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=53934 (Fansub typeset styling 101)

As for me, I like taking challenges. I went on scripting that Karaoke script, not because I want to make decent Karaoke, but because I want to do something that no one else had ever done before: Templated AFX Karaoke. SRSLY, why can't people understand?

Styling these days has gotten very monotonous, so yes, I've grown bored of it. It was fun 3-4 years ago when I got into Fansubbing.
I don't see much diff between having a open thread for just discussion and having one that was really nothing more than me posting a guide in compare to the many diff(same) encode/textsub/After Effects, threads kicking around this forum ;p. At least it sparked activity.
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