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View Poll Results: Who runs industry and services better?
Government in almost all cases. 2 4.88%
Government generally runs things better, but private has many merits as well. 8 19.51%
Private runs things better, but government has many merits as well. 23 56.10%
Private in almost all cases. 8 19.51%
Voters: 41. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2008-11-24, 13:54   Link #81
Anh_Minh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thingle View Post
@Liberals

Tell me, what do we get for sending (un)deserving poor kids to school with our tax money?
Trained workers for you and the infrastructure you use. Also, fewer criminals and more consumers.
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Old 2008-11-24, 14:17   Link #82
WanderingKnight
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@Liberals

Tell me, what do we get for sending (un)deserving poor kids to school with our tax money?
A better society.

PS: There's no "undeserving" kid. Kids are kids, and they are subject to the situation they are born in--and their initial sociocultural context determines most of their future life. Poor kids didn't do anything to be born in such status.
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Old 2008-11-24, 14:18   Link #83
Thingle
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Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
People who don't like sharing the load on education often seem to be just fine with building more jails.. until the bill arrives (which is bigger...).

Pure libertarianism (which is what some of the youngsters here are advocating) lasts for about 10 seconds before Warlord A comes and rapes your family, takes your food -- and may leave you just enough so he can do it again next harvest. But its a siren song of rugged individualism that continues to fool newbies and lets the robber barons continue to rape the majority...
Case to case basis, my man. In my country the Barons are too few and too public. The "masses" are the larger threat here, mainly because they're so many. The politicians do not help either. They just spew out what they want to hear. Very little representation of the Middle Class.

Me and my kind are the political minority here. Don't worry. When we get larger in number, politicians will start singing the tune of "F- off, peasants", "F-off subsidies", "F-off unions". Just wait.
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Old 2008-11-24, 14:20   Link #84
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Me and my kind are the political minority here.
Thank God.
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Old 2008-11-24, 14:22   Link #85
Thingle
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Originally Posted by WanderingKnight View Post
Thank God.
Oh, you're a Marxist aren't you?

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Originally Posted by WanderingKnight View Post
A better society.

PS: There's no "undeserving" kid. Kids are kids, and they are subject to the situation they are born in--and their initial sociocultural context determines most of their future life. Poor kids didn't do anything to be born in such status.
It depends, but if a better society is one that feeds off those who have without their consent, I'd rather not.
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Old 2008-11-24, 14:29   Link #86
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Oh, you're a Marxist aren't you?
I like to think that most of my ideals are built around Marx's writings, that much is true.

However, have you read Marx, or did you just throw around that label like many (ignorant) people do? ("You pinko-communist terrorist Marxist Che Guevara pig!", &c).

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It depends, but if a better society is one that feeds off those who have without their consent, I'd rather not.
How can a kid that had absolutely no chances in life feed off anything? Would you just leave them to die? To be crushed by the very same system that created them?

Education is the only way to make functional members of society out of margined lumpen.

(BTW, education, as Ahn_Mihn pointed out, can also be seen in capitalist terms as an investment. I don't particularly agree with that viewpoint, but there you have it anyways. Of course, it's always easier to manipulate an ignorant populace, so what the heck).
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Old 2008-11-24, 14:34   Link #87
Thingle
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Originally Posted by WanderingKnight View Post
I like to think that most of my ideals are built around Marx's writings, that much is true.

However, have you read Marx, or did you just throw around that label like many (ignorant) people do? ("You pinko-communist terrorist Marxist Che Guevara pig!", &c).
Yes, it is required in my program. However, I read Hegel first, to learn about the civil society he is against, have you?

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How can a kid that had absolutely no chances in life feed off anything? Would you just leave them to die? To be crushed by the very same system that created them?

(BTW, education, as Ahn_Mihn pointed out, can also be seen in capitalist terms as an investment. I don't particularly agree with that viewpoint, but there you have it anyways. Of course, it's always easier to manipulate an ignorant populace, so what the heck).
Well, as I posted earlier, it is none of my concern. It is up to them to strike gold for themselves.
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Old 2008-11-24, 14:46   Link #88
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Well, as I posted earlier, it is none of my concern. It is up to them to strike gold for themselves.
While I do think you know about the social contract, perhaps you should review some of its ideas, and what a society means. Unless of course you are an anarchist, in which case I'll just shake my head and drop it.

Spoiler for Social Contract Quotes:
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Old 2008-11-24, 14:50   Link #89
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by Thingle View Post
Yes, it is required in my program. However, I read Hegel first, to learn about the civil society he is against, have you?



Well, as I posted earlier, it is none of my concern. It is up to them to strike gold for themselves.
It bloody well is everyone's concern. If they don't strike gold, you don't strike gold. You can't support a 21st century society (that needs people who are not only literate, but can operate computers) with a medieval education system.

Maybe anarchy is a fairer way of sharing the pie. Everyone fighting equally, from the cradle to the gave. I don't know, and I don't care. That way only leads to everyone getting crumbs. Screw that, and enlarge the pie enough for me to fill my stomach.
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Old 2008-11-24, 14:54   Link #90
Thingle
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Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
While I do think you know about the social contract, perhaps you should review some of its ideas, and what a society means. Unless of course you are an anarchist, in which case I'll just shake my head and drop it.

Spoiler for Social Contract Quotes:
So , by copy-pasting from wherever site you have taken this from, you want to say that a society is best maintained by artificially enforced equality that doesn't respect the differences in productivity, for example.

I agree that all men are equal, but that does not mean men must strive for material equality. Those who do nothing and ask for bailouts will always be miserable. However, all men must have equal opportunity to "strike gold", and No person or society must take it away from him (both the opportunity and the fruits of his success).

If my interests conflict with those of the state, you all know which side I will stand for.

Sucks for you then.
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Old 2008-11-24, 14:55   Link #91
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Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
Well in my viewpoint, there is no one who is undeserving of education. However, I believe this also relates to a viewpoint of individualism v. collectivism, but there is another thread for that in this forum. You need a good balance of "the good of everyone" and the "good for one self" in society. As we can see in the current economic times (Specifically America), the latter seems to have forgotten about the former.
There are most definitely undeserving people, but they are undeserving by choice. People who decide that they don't need school, who use schools a gang meet ups, who bypass an opportunity to make their lives better. This group does not deserve what society is giving them because they do not want to be part of society.

The city I live in spends 3 times the amount of money on problem students then spent on gifted students at the high school level. They have made classes easier and lowered passing to a 50% so that problem students can graduate. The kicker is most of these students do not care if they pass. Schools pull crap like that so that they can say look at our graduation rate we are making society better. In truth all they did was tell a bunch of hard working kids, the ones that should be celebrated, that hard work is meaningless. Schools have big 8th grade graduation ceremonies for kids now, because "Many will not graduate from high school and we want them to be able to look back at an event with pride." That was a quote from a school superintendent of a major city in upstate New York.
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Old 2008-11-24, 14:57   Link #92
Reckoner
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Originally Posted by Thingle View Post
So , by copy-pasting from wherever site you have taken this from, you want to say that a society is best maintained by artificially enforced equality that doesn't respect the differences in productivity, for example.

I agree that all men are equal, but that does not mean men must strive for material equality. Those who do nothing and ask for bailouts will always be miserable. However, all men must be equal to "strike gold", and No person or society must take it away from him (both the opportunity and the fruits of his success).

If my interests conflict with those of the state, you all know which side I will stand for.

Sucks for you then.
You wanting to do away with education seems to do the opposite of letting everyone have an "equal chance" to strike gold. Not everyone is born with a silver spoon in their mouth.
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Old 2008-11-24, 14:59   Link #93
Thingle
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You wanting to do away with education seems to do the opposite of letting everyone have an "equal chance" to strike gold. Not everyone is born with a silver spoon in their mouth.
I am aware of that, but never did I say that I want to do away with education. What I am pointing out is that we all have equal opportunity. But how to realize it is our own concern.
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Old 2008-11-24, 15:01   Link #94
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by jsieczkar View Post
There are most definitely undeserving people, but they are undeserving by choice. People who decide that they don't need school, who use schools a gang meet ups, who bypass an opportunity to make their lives better. This group does not deserve what society is giving them because they do not want to be part of society.

The city I live in spends 3 times the amount of money on problem students then spent on gifted students at the high school level. They have made classes easier and lowered passing to a 50% so that problem students can graduate. The kicker is most of these students do not care if they pass. Schools pull crap like that so that they can say look at our graduation rate we are making society better. In truth all they did was tell a bunch of hard working kids, the ones that should be celebrated, that hard work is meaningless. Schools have big 8th grade graduation ceremonies for kids now, because "Many will not graduate from high school and we want them to be able to look back at an event with pride." That was a quote from a school superintendent of a major city in upstate New York.
I've got my share of things to say about problem kids. A lot of them involve boots. That does NOT mean I think we should get rid of public education.
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Old 2008-11-24, 15:07   Link #95
Thingle
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I've got my share of things to say about problem kids. A lot of them involve boots. That does NOT mean I think we should get rid of public education.
Public education is only acceptable if its products are bound give back what's given to them equivalent to the number of years they attended.

You know, like required community service activities or Peace Corps. (Well, I'm not american so find and equivalent)
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Old 2008-11-24, 15:09   Link #96
jsieczkar
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I've got my share of things to say about problem kids. A lot of them involve boots. That does NOT mean I think we should get rid of public education.
Nor do I, what I am saying is that we need to examine how we are running public schools, and if they are doing their part to help make society better. I would say no they are not, I would also add that this does seem to a problem mostly facing the US. Just north in Canada this is no where near as big of an issue.
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Old 2008-11-24, 15:35   Link #97
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Originally Posted by WanderingKnight View Post
How can a kid that had absolutely no chances in life feed off anything? Would you just leave them to die? To be crushed by the very same system that created them?
1) He probably can't.
2) Yes.
3) Yes, again.

Let's look at some ancient history. Why was Sparta so fucking badass and the most feared city-state in all of Ancient Greece? Because either you had what it took to live, or you died. There were no handouts. You lived or died on your own merits.

This is the kind of system that works. This is how humanity has gotten by since its inception until very recently, and if it wishes to continue getting by, then the only good system is Darwinism.

Translated to today, that means the free market, not welfare states. Everyone lives or dies by their own capabilities and merits.
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Old 2008-11-24, 16:25   Link #98
Anh_Minh
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Public education is only acceptable if its products are bound give back what's given to them equivalent to the number of years they attended.

You know, like required community service activities or Peace Corps. (Well, I'm not american so find and equivalent)
What, so you want everyone to spend 15 years in the government's employ? How unexpected. And what a waste, too. The private sector kinda needs those hands.

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Originally Posted by Demongod86 View Post
1) He probably can't.
2) Yes.
3) Yes, again.

Let's look at some ancient history. Why was Sparta so fucking badass and the most feared city-state in all of Ancient Greece? Because either you had what it took to live, or you died. There were no handouts. You lived or died on your own merits.

This is the kind of system that works. This is how humanity has gotten by since its inception until very recently, and if it wishes to continue getting by, then the only good system is Darwinism.

Translated to today, that means the free market, not welfare states. Everyone lives or dies by their own capabilities and merits.
Translated to anytime, that means anarchy. What is the police if not a hand-out of armed forces?

Now, go look at Somalia and tell me how friggin prosperous it is, despite its badass pirates.
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Old 2008-11-24, 16:56   Link #99
Slice of Life
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Once again a (deliberate?) complete misunderstaning of the priniciples of Darwinian evolution. For once - as every anthropologist will tell you - one of the biggest evolutionary advantages of homo sapiens was their ability to cooperate in the absence of any obvious benefit. We even beat close relatives like chimpanzees in that field.

So please let Mr. Darwin rest in his grave. He's probably already one of the fastest spinning corpses.

And if history teaches us anything than that there's a clear trend of widening cooperation - from clans to city states to nations. Because the cooperating weaklings outperform the Demongod86's on this planet any time, Even Sparta (BTW where are they now?), an oddball in history and thus no candidate to teach us anything, wasn't simply about the strong rule over the weak. In which case they had probably killed each other before leaving the city. (They also had a very strict class system where the children of slaves remained slaves no matter if they "had it" or not.)
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Old 2008-11-24, 16:56   Link #100
WanderingKnight
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I am aware of that, but never did I say that I want to do away with education.
Umm, what?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thingle
Tell me, what do we get for sending (un)deserving poor kids to school with our tax money?
Quote:
However, all men must have equal opportunity to "strike gold", and No person or society must take it away from him (both the opportunity and the fruits of his success).
And, PRAY TELL ME, how in the BLAZES do you do the math in your mind when you believe that kids who were born in poverty and have absolutely no future at all should not be granted education? How in the hell is that fair opportunity?

Quote:
Public education is only acceptable if its products are bound give back what's given to them equivalent to the number of years they attended.
No, you tool, public education is about having a learned society that can be taught not only skills to work and produce, but also a certain degree of moral principles, and most importantly, how to think. What society "gets back" from it will be everything--because they also are part of the same frigging society, no matter how much detached from them you'd like to feel.

Quote:
You lived or died on your own merits.
What you don't understand is that your merits are limited by the environment you grow up in. If you grow up in poverty, lacking not only education but also food to feed your brain, your capabilities will be completely diminished.

There's no magical source of "merits".

You know what's fun, though? That it doesn't matter that all of you defend this savage, self-destructive system that has been going on for ages, which despite its numerous mutations, still remains more or less the same. It doesn't matter because you don't matter.

All in all, you're just another brick in the wall. Wake up and realize it.

(PS: Yes, I got sentimentally idealistic, sue me).

EDIT:

Quote:
Yes, it is required in my program.
But have you understood it? I've been reading Das Kapital for well over a year now and I still haven't understood it in its entirety. Understanding a man is a very complex task, especially one as intelligent, intricate and sometimes rather contradictory as Marx.

Quote:
However, I read Hegel first, to learn about the civil society he is against, have you?
Hegel's civil society served as a blueprint for Marx's bourgeoisie society. And yes, I also feel compelled to reject the bourgeoisie society reigned during Marx's time. How does that mean anything against my argument?
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Last edited by WanderingKnight; 2008-11-24 at 17:18.
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