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Old 2008-11-23, 13:15   Link #301
Paraden1989
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Originally Posted by The Phenomenol View Post
I just have a feeling that Jinbei has a better chance of joining the SH crew than Boa or Ace?
no i see Ba joining them because she hinted about her tragic past, so she might go more indepth when she gets to impal down, and we still have to see her interact with the tenryubito
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Old 2008-11-23, 13:22   Link #302
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Originally Posted by Paraden1989 View Post
no i see Ba joining them because she hinted about her tragic past, so she might go more indepth when she gets to impal down, and we still have to see her interact with the tenryubito

Agreed Boa's chances of joining are very high we got
Character development on Boa
She has the same Haki as Luffy and could possibly help him develop it
She has to go with Luffy or she will die of her sickness
She loves Luffy
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Old 2008-11-23, 13:25   Link #303
james0246
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Actually, when using it during the day in the open, it's an instant-kill...
You are undoubtedly correct, and maybe during Moria heyday, this is the move than landed him a bounty higher than Luffy's.

That being said, I have never thought of the move as being fast enough to be used without hindrence, and I am unsure if the move can be used against multiple opponents. Added to that, one of the main reaosns that Moria confined himself in the Florian Triangle (is that what the location was called?) was because he wanted to collect shadows. Fighting in the daylight would destroy the host, and consequently the shadow, which would deny Moria the ability to collect the shadow so as to "power-up" or create an army.

So, maybe Moria will re-start his services by going to Impel Down and taking a bunch of the inmates shadows so as to create a new zombie army, all the while, further confining the prisoners by making it impossible for them ever to leave the prison without being destroyed by the sun. Going to Impel Down could also lead to a confrontation between Luffy and Moria in which we can finally see who would win a normal fight .
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Old 2008-11-23, 13:47   Link #304
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Yeah, I have the feeling that Moria isn't quick enough to steal multiple shadows at once in broad daylight. He sorta strikes me as being more of a "sneak and ambush"-type of fighter. Remember how he was able to instantly switch locations with his Doppleman? While it's a useful tactic on maybe one or two opponents, I don't think it will work well enough against hundreds of fighters....



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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
So, maybe Moria will re-start his services by going to Impel Down and taking a bunch of the inmates shadows so as to create a new zombie army, all the while, further confining the prisoners by making it impossible for them ever to leave the prison without being destroyed by the sun. Going to Impel Down could also lead to a confrontation between Luffy and Moria in which we can finally see who would win a normal fight .

And once again I bring back my idea of zombie Pacifistas. The marines should have executed more than enough pirates to make a suitable zombie army. Along with Moria's shadow powers, all that's needed is Hogback's corpse preparation skills, Vegapunk's robo-implants, and you've got a nigh-unstoppable army of undead cyborgs at your disposal. I don't think that Whitebeard and his men will bother to carry salt on them while they're busy fighting the other Shichibukai/marines. The only flaw I see in that plan is if it turns out that Haki is "hax" enough to force shadows out of zombies.... which I hope not.
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Old 2008-11-23, 15:37   Link #305
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Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma View Post
Because the shadow absorption and Nightmare power up are both a part of Moria's abilities, not Luffy's or anyone else's. Moria has every right to use his shadow devil fruit based on his ingenuity and how he sees fit. How he uses his shadow fruit is his prerogative and we should not deprive him of any of his abilities since he is just utilizing his powers to their fullest capabilities. Having Oz, his whole zombie army, and 1000 shadows under his control is not unfair or advantageous in any way. He is just using his devil fruit like everyone else that has one.
The thing is though, Moria did not have all of that when he fought in the new world or when he earned his bounty... in fact, Moria thought Oz was just the thing he needed to step foward in the new world. If Luffy were to have a rematch with Moria, he would not have even close to as many shadows or Oz; just as Moria will not have any of it in the upcoming battle. Not to mention that fact that Oz wasn't just a corpse, but a copse that had been sown back together and repaired by Hogback; had Moria just used Oz as he was, the gigantic monster would have likely fallen apart much more easily. So Moria had hogback's assistance in getting Oz up and running... essentially, Oz and the 1000 shadows is not Moria, it's Moria when he has had 10 years of preparation time; they are not the things that earned him that 320 million beri bounty...

in a sense, the Moria that Luffy was up against was far stronger than normal and much stronger than he was back when he became a shichibukai... While Moria had a 320 million bounty; the Moria that fights with Oz and the support of a 1000 shadows would have had a MUCH HIGHER bounty than he would without any of that... and nightmare Luffy was the way to even out moria's 10 year preparations

a theoretically fair fight between Moria and Luffy, would be Moria fighting the way he would normally fight; the way he fought that earned him his bounty a status... giving him only the amount of preparation that he normally took into a fight
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Moria tends to be underrated by a lot of fans, but the fact is that he is an extremely formidable adversary. Oda did have to dumb him down a little for the strawhats to prevail against him. If you think about it, Moria could've completely avoided his beating from Nightmare Luffy if he just used his doppleman to take all of the hits in the cockpit of Oz.
you could be overestimating how quickly Moria can switch places... i mean doppleman was being combined with Oz's shadow at the time; he likely can not switch places with him while it's in that state... he would need to separate it first and ideally move it a safe distance from the battle... however once Moria realized that is what he should be doing he took a pistol to the face and was Ko'd. While the transfer itself if just about instant, the preparation in that case would have taken a few moments... Moria would have needed to think of it sooner... and we can't really discount a character for a moment of absent-minded-ness; if we did that, then we'd have to point out how Luffy should have known to use his first punch on Moria to hit him before he could runaway like he did half the time; only reason Moria might have had a chance to runaway was because Luffy didn't target him at first

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Originally Posted by marvelB View Post
And once again I bring back my idea of zombie Pacifistas. The marines should have executed more than enough pirates to make a suitable zombie army. Along with Moria's shadow powers, all that's needed is Hogback's corpse preparation skills, Vegapunk's robo-implants, and you've got a nigh-unstoppable army of undead cyborgs at your disposal. I don't think that Whitebeard and his men will bother to carry salt on them while they're busy fighting the other Shichibukai/marines. The only flaw I see in that plan is if it turns out that Haki is "hax" enough to force shadows out of zombies.... which I hope not.
One thing you'd have to ask though... would the world gov't really want Zombie pacifista's under moria's control? doubt they could trust him, and they be fools to do so... Moria has ambitions of his own, like Blackbeard, he's likely only using the shichibukai status to keep the marines off his back while he does he prepares
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Old 2008-11-23, 16:42   Link #306
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Originally Posted by marvelB View Post
And once again I bring back my idea of zombie Pacifistas. The marines should have executed more than enough pirates to make a suitable zombie army. Along with Moria's shadow powers, all that's needed is Hogback's corpse preparation skills, Vegapunk's robo-implants, and you've got a nigh-unstoppable army of undead cyborgs at your disposal. I don't think that Whitebeard and his men will bother to carry salt on them while they're busy fighting the other Shichibukai/marines. The only flaw I see in that plan is if it turns out that Haki is "hax" enough to force shadows out of zombies.... which I hope not.
The Pacifistas are already tough enough, so I see no reason to add to their abilities. That being said, the current Pacifista cannot be defeated with salt, so I see no reason for creating a prototype that can be defeated with salt (even if salt isn't something people just carry around), especially since the standard model has no such weakness. Added to that, Zombie powers are already comparable to a cyborgs powers, so I am unsure if enough additional powers would be supplied in order to make up for the increased weakness.
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Old 2008-11-23, 17:36   Link #307
Blackbeard D. Kuma
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Originally Posted by Slayerx View Post
The thing is though, Moria did not have all of that when he fought in the new world or when he earned his bounty... in fact, Moria thought Oz was just the thing he needed to step foward in the new world. If Luffy were to have a rematch with Moria, he would not have even close to as many shadows or Oz; just as Moria will not have any of it in the upcoming battle. Not to mention that fact that Oz wasn't just a corpse, but a copse that had been sown back together and repaired by Hogback; had Moria just used Oz as he was, the gigantic monster would have likely fallen apart much more easily. So Moria had hogback's assistance in getting Oz up and running... essentially, Oz and the 1000 shadows is not Moria, it's Moria when he has had 10 years of preparation time; they are not the things that earned him that 320 million beri bounty...
None of this changes the fact that they are all a part of his ability. Oz and the 1000 shadows are an extension of Moria's power. Without his power they cannot be put to any use and therefore they are a part of his strength. All he did was exploit all of the advantages his devil fruit had to offer and put them to use. Implanting shadows into corpses to revive the dead and shadow absorption were amongst the many things his devil fruit was capable of doing. You make it sound like Moria should not have been allowed to use such external tools in his battle with Luffy, but if you take these things away from him then you are essentially handicapping him. So what if he had 10 years worth of preparation? The fact is that Luffy happened to encounter him after said number of years and nothing could be changed about that.

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Originally Posted by Slayerx View Post
in a sense, the Moria that Luffy was up against was far stronger than normal and much stronger than he was back when he became a shichibukai... While Moria had a 320 million bounty; the Moria that fights with Oz and the support of a 1000 shadows would have had a MUCH HIGHER bounty than he would without any of that... and nightmare Luffy was the way to even out moria's 10 year preparations
If you are talking about Moria augmented with 1000 shadows, hence his nightmare form, then yes I agree with you. But the normal Moria that Luffy fought is assumed to be exactly as strong or weaker than he was when he became a warlord. Where is my logic for this you may ask? After Moria's loss in the New World, he was no longer the same as he used to be. He was now a reformed man who had begun to understand the importance of immortal underlings. And so he began to create his own zombie army by accumulating shadows over the course of 10 years. His goal was now to become the next pirate king without having to lift a finger through the use of immortal subordinates. Having said this, he would no longer directly fight anyone anymore, and consequently, he would be out of fighting practice so at best his power would remain the same; or because he slacked off so much, there is a chance that he has gotten slightly weaker since he is now very rusty as a fighter.

In the end, all I am saying is that Luffy should not have won against Moria on Thriller Bark. The only reason he did win was for the sake of plot. I don't think I need to get into how Moria greatly underestimated Luffy either. Such underestimating on his part was a pivotal factor towards his defeat. Moria is a battle strategist and his greatest strength comes from fighting indirectly through shadow manipulation. Furthermore, he wasn't in the least bit intimidated by Kuma and he was ready to fight him if necessary, which says a lot considering how Kuma is a monster who makes Luffy look like a small fry. As I said before, Moria is greatly underestimated by a lot of fans and one of the main reasons for that is simply because he has already been defeated, which is just silly.

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Originally Posted by Slayerx View Post
a theoretically fair fight between Moria and Luffy, would be Moria fighting the way he would normally fight; the way he fought that earned him his bounty a status... giving him only the amount of preparation that he normally took into a fight
This is why I am looking forward to seeing him fight in the war. He is going to have to fight much differently than he did at Thriller Bark, and by differently I mean in a much more direct manner now that he has lost his whole zombie army.
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Old 2008-11-23, 18:09   Link #308
marvelB
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The Pacifistas are already tough enough, so I see no reason to add to their abilities. That being said, the current Pacifista cannot be defeated with salt, so I see no reason for creating a prototype that can be defeated with salt (even if salt isn't something people just carry around), especially since the standard model has no such weakness. Added to that, Zombie powers are already comparable to a cyborgs powers, so I am unsure if enough additional powers would be supplied in order to make up for the increased weakness.


It's kinda been hinted that the Pacifistas aren't perfect, though. I'm thinking back to when Drake attacked that one Pacifista in Sabaody and mentioned how they were still able to bleed red blood. Plus, we saw how the Straw-Hats were still able to take down PX-4, though just barely. I'd think that people as strong as Rayleigh wouldn't have much trouble taking out the Pacifistas, since they're still... y'know, human. A zombie Pacifista would be much harder to take down since they can't be "killed". As far as the salt weakness goes.... well, Vegapunk or Hogback should be able to find a way around that. Both doctors ARE geniuses, after all.....



But still, imagine the zombies used to fight in the war! What if, somehow, Gol D. Roger's corpse is turned into a super soldier? Maybe even the zombies of Fisher Tiger (if he's actually dead) and Jaguar D. Sauro/Saul could become undead weapons of mass destruction as well! I really see no limit to the versatility of Moria's shadow powers.....
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Old 2008-11-23, 18:23   Link #309
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^My point was less about putting the salt in the mouth, but more about a general weakness to salt. Specifically, a Zombie Pacifista could be defeated by throwing them in the sea. A regular Cyborg (using Frankie as a model) would not be harmed by sea water, but a Zombie Cyborg would. So, I do not see the benefits necessarily outweighting the costs. If Vegapunk wanted to upgrade his Pacifistas he could simply give them a DF, which would give them the same weakness as a Zombie, but even great offensive capabilities. Or, they can go the extra mile and just turn them into machines (which would give them all the abilities that a zombie has)...and then give them Devil Fruit .

That being said, I do not expect Pacifistas to ever be the soldiers that take down high-level opponents. Rather, they are supposed to take down the mid-level and lower opponents, leaving room for the high-level marines to take down the high-level pirates. Pacifistas are the grunts of the future (similar to say the standard model Terminator (The 'Arnold' model) from the Terminator series). Or, at least this is how I have always viewed them (I fully admit that I could be wrong, and that the Pacifistas are going to become the Sentinals (ala X-Men) of One Piece, in which case further robotics are needed, not necessarily zombification).
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Old 2008-11-23, 19:26   Link #310
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So who thinks Hancock is going to kick chibi chopper out of her way if she meets him?

Just who had the nerve to put a Raccoon in my way!
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Old 2008-11-23, 19:53   Link #311
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None of this changes the fact that they are all a part of his ability. Oz and the 1000 shadows are an extension of Moria's power. Without his power they cannot be put to any use and therefore they are a part of his strength. All he did was exploit all of the advantages his devil fruit had to offer and put them to use. Implanting shadows into corpses to revive the dead and shadow absorption were amongst the many things his devil fruit was capable of doing. You make it sound like Moria should not have been allowed to use such external tools in his battle with Luffy, but if you take these things away from him then you are essentially handicapping him. So what if he had 10 years worth of preparation? The fact is that Luffy happened to encounter him after said number of years and nothing could be changed about that.
the thing of it though, Oz himself is a product of Hogback's work... without Hogback and with just Moria's shadow powers, Oz would have been just a regular decaying corpse, and as such might have fallen apart in battle or not have been nearly as strong; Oz may have very well been just about beaten by the time Moria decided to jump in... if not for Hogback's work on Oz, Luffy might have been able to finish off Oz with just the use of Gear 3 instead of needing the might of nightmare Luffy... in a sense would hogback's work on Oz not be considering gaining outside support? Why is Moria granted the support of Hogback, but Luffy is not granted the support of the risky pirates? Moria did his own preparations for the past 10 years, and the risky pirates made Luffy's preparations for him over the years.


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I don't think I need to get into how Moria greatly underestimated Luffy either. Such underestimating on his part was a pivotal factor towards his defeat.
underestimating an opponent is a perfectly fair handicap for Moria... Moria may be a "battle strategist" but he suffers from an over inflated ego; this causes him to overestimate himself and underestimate everyone else and ruin his plans; it's part of his character. Hell his attempt to control 1000 shadows which he very possibly never did before could be a prime example of him overestimating his own abilities; if he didn't carry such an ego then maybe he would not have gotten into a fight with one of the four emperors... the only time Moria showed any modestly was in regards to the new world; his complete defeat gave him some sense of limit but it was only in regards to the new world as he still thought he was toughest guy in the old world (even compared to those with a bounty close to his former one; a bounty which is a sign of someone with the potential to be a shichibukai)... frankly, he never considered their would be a pirate in the old world that could challenge him aside from the shichibukai; he felt that being beaten by mere pirates was utterly impossible

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Furthermore, he wasn't in the least bit intimidated by Kuma and he was ready to fight him if necessary, which says a lot considering how Kuma is a monster who makes Luffy look like a small fry.
Luffy says the acts the same way regardless of whether or not it is true with everyone he meets... for instance he said he could beat Ace in alabasta; but doubt that was anywhere near from true.

Moria knowing how Kuma's powers works does NOT mean that he fully comprehends Kuma's strength... hell Moria may not even know that he's a cyborg. He may considering himself to be Kuma's equal but he could be dead wrong about that
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Old 2008-11-23, 23:12   Link #312
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You have very good points Slayerx. I guess we've both shown that we can argue both for and against Moria and Luffy. Still though, I'm adamant in my view that Moria's defeat was entirely circumstantial at Thriller Bark.

And I absolutely agree with you about the confrontation between Moria and Kuma. Moria may know about Kuma's ability, as in what devil fruit he possesses, but that doesn't necessarily mean he knows what exactly he can do with his fruit. He does consider Kuma to be a big mystery after all. Based on their showings of strength however, I feel that Kuma would be able to defeat Moria in a fight. He's much faster, has greater durability, and his devil fruit is more practical in both offensive and defensive combat.
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Old 2008-11-24, 00:39   Link #313
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Hmm.... speaking of Kuma, I wonder if we'll see any other Pacifista with DF powers in the near future? I know I mentioned the idea of zombie Pacifistas, but that doesn't mean I don't want to see more variety in the "normal" ones as well. I kinda doubt that Kuma would be the only "high-tier" Pacifista. Vegapunk is sure to create more (and when he does get around to it, I hope they have a more unique appearance other than Kuma's body build)....
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Old 2008-11-24, 05:32   Link #314
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Hmm.... speaking of Kuma, I wonder if we'll see any other Pacifista with DF powers in the near future? I know I mentioned the idea of zombie Pacifistas, but that doesn't mean I don't want to see more variety in the "normal" ones as well. I kinda doubt that Kuma would be the only "high-tier" Pacifista. Vegapunk is sure to create more (and when he does get around to it, I hope they have a more unique appearance other than Kuma's body build)....
Well, as far as we know the only major difference between Kuma and the pacifistas is his Paw-Paw power, and the fact that he quite simply a cyborg (more human then robot), whereas the Pacifistas seem to be more robots (technically they are cyborg's, but their humanity seems to be surpressed to a minimum). Anyway, in terms of combat ability the Paw-Paw is the most interesting.

Vegapunk seems hardly the type to 'waste' such a powerfull DF on a prototype wich leads me to believe Kuma ate that fruit before he was turned into a cyborg. Either that, or Vegapunk has found a way to duplicate DF ability's, and implement the Paw-Paw fruit in newer Kuma-models. The latter option would imbalance the whole OP-world, so I'm inclined to believe that whatever other high-tier Kuma/pacifista-models we'll see, they won't have the Paw-paw power, and would automatically be far less dangerous than the original Kuma. Yes, I think the Paw-Paw is one of the most powerfull fruits we've seen so far..and then to think there may be abilities we haven't even seen.
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Old 2008-11-24, 10:07   Link #315
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Either that, or Vegapunk has found a way to duplicate DF ability's, and implement the Paw-Paw fruit in newer Kuma-models. The latter option would imbalance the whole OP-world, so I'm inclined to believe that whatever other high-tier Kuma/pacifista-models we'll see, they won't have the Paw-paw power, and would automatically be far less dangerous than the original Kuma. Yes, I think the Paw-Paw is one of the most powerfull fruits we've seen so far..and then to think there may be abilities we haven't even seen.
Well, in response to the first statement, I believe it was Sentoumaru who made a remark about one of the Pacifista having, "Kizaru's beam abilities."

There's some implication that Vegapunk was able to copy Kizaru's powers, but I'll just leave that hanging out there in case someone else wants to pick it up.

On the other hand, I much prefer the idea that Vegapunk is creating, in a way, "artificial fruit-users." We've seen a steady to-and-fro in the world of One Piece in terms of the contrast between nature and technology with the appearance of the Pacifista and the Marine's ability to sail through the calm belt. There's also the matter of the three gates used to harness the power of that cyclonic currentbetween the three Marine strongholds.

With the patten shown, there's no telling what kind of madness the great minds behind the World Government could come up with next.
Maybe we'll start seeing spliced fruit-users, those who hold two abilities...
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Old 2008-11-24, 14:58   Link #316
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Uhm, yeah. Totally forgot about. that . But still, it's a part of Kizaru's power. Not his entire logia-ability. It could be that Vegapunk was inspired and found a way to imitate Kizaru's beam. It's after all just a laser. It CAN be created using 'real' technology. But this is getting highly speculative. I'll just leave it at that it would be hard to believe that the DF-abilitie as a whole can be duplicated. We'll see.

But the idea of splice fruit-users or certain DF-abilities being able to be copied does tickle the imagination.
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Old 2008-11-24, 16:14   Link #317
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I do consider the possibility of such a duplication. It will still be artificial, hence, will not have the strength of the original. But, it may be possible. Maybe the cyborgs are created solely for the purpose of imitating such DF powers. Another thing, maybe the commonality between DF and the dials made Vegapunk to find out ways to re-create those powers.

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A regular Cyborg (using Frankie as a model) would not be harmed by sea water, but a Zombie Cyborg would.
That is questionable.

The Zombie Cyborg would still be a Cyborg, so even though the body parts affected by the DF wouldn't move or would be affected by the sea water in many ways, the cyborg abilities may nullify that immobility and disadvantages. We had already seen that with Moria. If you can prevent the salt to be absorbed by the body, then, that may be possible. And, for the immobility part, as long as the brain works, which has been the case so far, the neural impulses can be used to activate the necessary cyborg parts to erase that disadvantage.
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Old 2008-11-24, 16:23   Link #318
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If I remember the Skypea episodes correctly, then that is entirely possible. They imitated smells, extreme pressure, and sounds, so somehow they could be given the power to invoke Devil Fruit abilities. But I doubt it would be able to do anything but Logia, since they are able to actually take off their actual essence and make it a piece of their devil fruit.

So if we're not careful, we may see a Pasifista with Ace's powers.
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Old 2008-11-24, 16:26   Link #319
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Old 2008-11-24, 17:52   Link #320
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That is questionable.

The Zombie Cyborg would still be a Cyborg, so even though the body parts affected by the DF wouldn't move or would be affected by the sea water in many ways, the cyborg abilities may nullify that immobility and disadvantages. We had already seen that with Moria. If you can prevent the salt to be absorbed by the body, then, that may be possible. And, for the immobility part, as long as the brain works, which has been the case so far, the neural impulses can be used to activate the necessary cyborg parts to erase that disadvantage.
I would agree with you...if we were talking about Devil Fruit powers in a Cyborg body. A zombie-cyborg, though, would have the zombie half neutralized/purified by the salt in the water, simply leaving the cyborg/robotic side to operate the body. And, If you seal off the mouth, so as to prevent salt from being directly absorbed, then you also seal away one of the primary offensive abilities, the mouth-canon. In the end, the combination seems to be less beneficial than just using the regular cybog body or upgrading completely to use robots.
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