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Old 2008-12-19, 06:14   Link #281
Tri-ring
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kyon.haruhi.suzumiya View Post
^^ even if you don't understand, it's fine. Japan's education system denies most wrongdoing of Japan in WWII anyway. I went thru HK, Singapore and Taiwan systems, in addition to Japan, so I think different from him too.
I really do not care what your ethnicity is.
You're just making the problem worse apologizing to a problem that neither side really sees in full view.
You need to develop a mutual agreement to the problem for it to be solved based on the criteria I wrote in my previous posting.
(Point a person or a group with faces who are accountable. Point out what exactly was the problem, the extent of the problem, the motive and who were the victims and again not a simple mass like the Chinese people in general. (were they soldiers in civilian clothing, were they mis-represented people, were they sympathizers or were they simply bystanders)
What I hear the most is more of a propaganda line to demote Japan's present global political status.
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Old 2008-12-19, 06:31   Link #282
Yukinokesshou
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Originally Posted by Tri-ring View Post
People can atone to a problem when they know what exactly was that problem but will not accept nor apology to a generalized situation say you were all evil and we are the victims therefore you all need to apologize till eternity.
I can't speak for other Chinese people, but an apology is not what I'm seeking. In any case, Japan's government has already issued several official apologies. All I wish is that everyone would stop being so very defensive. Stop trying to somehow put things in a more positive light by arguing that motives were pure or haggling about numbers.

It's good that you at least admit that something bad happened. As you said, people were used as guinea pigs... it doesn't matter at all what the motives were or whether these people were "soldiers in civilian clothing, mis-represented people, sympathizers or simply bystanders". The pure and simple fact is that they were used as guinea pigs and died as a result. Is that not horrible enough for you? Let's just leave it at that instead of trying to protect Japan at any cost.

Before you accuse me of being unfair... yes, the Chinese should also stop being si beh nationalistic and protective of the PRC. As a nation, we have been letting emotions get the better of us. As for Tiananmen, I condemn the CCP's actions as much as you do, but it doesn't make a whit of difference with regard to 731 and Nanjing.
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Old 2008-12-19, 07:05   Link #283
Kang Seung Jae
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Originally Posted by Yukinokesshou View Post
Very well, then. Perhaps it all boils down to whether you focus on the stated intent, the scale of the atrocities, or the simple fact that the atrocities happened...
No, it boils down to whether people should just slap down terms upon any atrocity, just to make it seem worse.


Was Unit 731 a crime? Yes.

Is it unforgivable? Yes.

Is it worth using a term that is used for genocide? No.
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Old 2008-12-19, 13:32   Link #284
Fipskuul
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Originally Posted by Tri-ring View Post
You're still pulling out numbers out of a hat without any supportive evidence.
There are links to different sources at Wikipedia.
Quote:
As long as you are not able to point who are accountable then it will always be used with an ulterior political motives to attack a nation(Japan) linking present people who has nothing to do with the problem.
If in truth the state at the time was supportive of the wrongdoings, then, it is only natural for the people of Japan to also feel responsibility about the actions.

Quote:
If you want to discuss it as the past you first need to be able to point a person or a group with faces who are accountable. Point out what exactly was the problem, the extent of the problem, the motive and who were the victims and again not a simple mass like the Chinese people in general. (were they soldiers in civilian clothing, were they mis-represented people, were they sympathizers or were they simply bystanders)
I think you are extending this a bit further. If you are talking about the actions, then it doesn't matter in essence whom the Japans killed. It was a crime against humanity itself. Hence, they need to ask forgiveness from whoever affected with that.
Quote:
People can atone to a problem when they know what exactly was that problem but will not accept nor apology to a generalized situation say you were all evil and we are the victims therefore you all need to apologize till eternity.
They don't need to apologize till eternity. They need to make their apology understood with their actions. They need to carry this responsibility to younger generations, in shape of letting them know about the cruelties of their ancestors, and make them understand why it was wrong, and why it should never be repeated. That is the important part. The actions cannot completely be tied to war conditions either, it was related to their mindset. And, it is every affected person's relatives' right to see that being changed, and how it won't be repeated again.
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Old 2008-12-19, 16:57   Link #285
Shadow Kira01
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Originally Posted by kyon.haruhi.suzumiya View Post
^^ Just face it, 731 was evil. I'm a Japanese (at least half), (albeit pacifist) but at least I don't deny Japan's faults during WWII.
Your ethnicity has no relations to historic incidents. Considering that you had your education in Singapore and that Singapore is a politically authoritarian nation where the ethnic Chinese is considered as 1st class citizens, while everyone else as second or third.. Studying politics and history from a pro-China dictatorship regime means that you are probably misinformed in some ways, but for sure.. You are not to blame, its what you studied.

If 731 was evil, then lots of scientists from various countries of this very era are evil as well. American scientists during the 90s were grabbing people off African streets to do live experimentations, which resulted in the Ebola Syndrome and AIDs. Those two diseases were biochemical weapons and it only occurred in Africa at first. However, the US was not hold accountable for the incidents, because facts pointed out that they were not responsible, because they were the "good" guys. China has done a fair share of live human experimentations, using Falun Gong practitioners as their organ harvest, biochemical weapon tests, as well as guinea pigs to develop medicine to extend their survival rates in the future. However, since there are no actual evidence, they did not do such a crime against humanity and the end result is like the US scientists, they are also the "good" guys. Both of these countries deny their actions against humanity and evidence proves that they really are the "good" guys. Unit 731 are evil, because they did the same thing as US and China, yet the were the losers.

One more thing is that China is currently using Japan's East-Asian conflict incident as a means of diverting its public's attention away from the Tiannanmen Massacre and also the current corruption of the government, as well as how they are currently treating Muslims and Falun Gong practitioners in their very own nation. To hide away their own crimes against humanity, large numbers of living human beings, they used historical issues as their main diversion tactic. Though it works, but I am certain that not everybody is foolish enough to buy into it.
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Old 2008-12-19, 17:52   Link #286
Lathdrinor
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If 731 was evil, then lots of scientists from various countries of this very era are evil as well. American scientists during the 90s were grabbing people off African streets to do live experimentations, which resulted in the Ebola Syndrome and AIDs. Those two diseases were biochemical weapons and it only occurred in Africa at first. However, the US was not hold accountable for the incidents, because facts pointed out that they were not responsible, because they were the "good" guys. China has done a fair share of live human experimentations, using Falun Gong practitioners as their organ harvest, biochemical weapon tests, as well as guinea pigs to develop medicine to extend their survival rates in the future. However, since there are no actual evidence, they did not do such a crime against humanity and the end result is like the US scientists, they are also the "good" guys. Both of these countries deny their actions against humanity and evidence proves that they really are the "good" guys. Unit 731 are evil, because they did the same thing as US and China, yet the were the losers.
I don't know where you get the impression that the US and China are the "good guys." I live in the US, and there is plenty of anti-China and anti-US rhetoric. No country is free from blame. As far as I can tell, no one in this thread suggested that Unit 731 is evil but that the misdeeds of China and the US are not. The goal is to get people from every country to stop denying and/or downplaying their past atrocities. Only then can people face up to the truth and in so doing, lower the chance of atrocities happening in the future.

The reason people get worked up with Japan time and time again is because practically every year you hear some high-level official or general in Japan deny/downplay aspects of its history. But before you claim that this is just because Japan lost the war, let me assure you that Japan is not the primary target of world hate. The US and the PRC receive far more negative criticism than Japan does today, and they deserve it. Nonetheless, Japan did commit atrocities in the past and it is necessary to face up to them. It might even be in Japan's interests to do so, as then you can at least claim that Japan faced up to its past, whereas the countries doing the criticizing haven't yet faced up to theirs.

Last edited by Lathdrinor; 2008-12-19 at 18:02.
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Old 2008-12-19, 19:34   Link #287
LeoXiao
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kang Seung Jae View Post
No, it boils down to whether people should just slap down terms upon any atrocity, just to make it seem worse.


Was Unit 731 a crime? Yes.

Is it unforgivable? Yes.

Is it worth using a term that is used for genocide? No.
True, but remember that even when you overuse the term "genocide" it can mislead people. The 20 million Chinese deaths that resulted from the 2nd Sino-Japanese War are not a genocide, since the Japanese had no plan to wipe out the entire Chinese population, but nevertheless 20 million people died. Also not included as genocides are the 30 million people killed by Stalin and the 70 million by Mao. This is correct usage of the word, but since people have grown to like the term "genocide" more than simply "democide (which would be more general)," they often forget about such tragedies.

The point is that one shouldn't get tied up by specific meanings of words.

I don't consider 731 a big part of the Japanese crimes. Sure, they were extremely evil, but looking at the numbers it doesn't actually mean much. I'm sure similar things happened in the Nanjing massacre.
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Old 2008-12-19, 20:11   Link #288
Kang Seung Jae
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LeoXiao View Post
The point is that one shouldn't get tied up by specific meanings of words.
Still, one should not throw around "Holocaust" like candy.
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Old 2008-12-22, 21:32   Link #289
Hari Michiru
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Originally Posted by LeoXiao View Post
True, but remember that even when you overuse the term "genocide" it can mislead people. The 20 million Chinese deaths that resulted from the 2nd Sino-Japanese War are not a genocide, since the Japanese had no plan to wipe out the entire Chinese population, but nevertheless 20 million people died. Also not included as genocides are the 30 million people killed by Stalin and the 70 million by Mao. This is correct usage of the word, but since people have grown to like the term "genocide" more than simply "democide (which would be more general)," they often forget about such tragedies.

The point is that one shouldn't get tied up by specific meanings of words.

I don't consider 731 a big part of the Japanese crimes. Sure, they were extremely evil, but looking at the numbers it doesn't actually mean much. I'm sure similar things happened in the Nanjing massacre.
Then Japan can get away scot-free while the victims of the families still mourn for the loss of their loved ones?

"Oh, it's not the Japanese's fault my mom got dragged off, raped over and over again, and then killed in a brutal way. They were just doing what everyone else does in this world. WE all do that on a daily basis, no?"
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Old 2008-12-22, 22:30   Link #290
kyon.haruhi.suzumiya
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Quote:
I don't consider 731 a big part of the Japanese crimes. Sure, they were extremely evil, but looking at the numbers it doesn't actually mean much. I'm sure similar things happened in the Nanjing massacre.
That was the precursor to 731. So, yes, in a way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hari Michiru View Post
Then Japan can get away scot-free while the victims of the families still mourn for the loss of their loved ones?

"Oh, it's not the Japanese's fault my mom got dragged off, raped over and over again, and then killed in a brutal way. They were just doing what everyone else does in this world. WE all do that on a daily basis, no?"
Exactly my point.
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Old 2008-12-22, 22:45   Link #291
Nerroth
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Japan did not get away scot-free:



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Old 2008-12-22, 22:47   Link #292
kyon.haruhi.suzumiya
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Originally Posted by Nerroth View Post
Japan did not get away scot-free:

Ironically, THIS allowed Japan to claim they were the victims. So now what? Japan denies EVERYTHING they did. And claim they were the victims while at it.
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Old 2008-12-22, 22:53   Link #293
Nerroth
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So now you speak for everyone in the Home Islands, then?


The things that happened to German civilians during the Allied air raids, and the onslught of the Red Army in their drive to Berlin, were horrifying - but Germans (and others) look at them in the context of the massive crimes committed by the Nazis in the course of the War, and with the acknowledgment of the millions who died under Hitler's rule.

The point I am making is that the same should apply in East Asia - and pretending that Japan was unblemished is no more fair than trying to pretend the bombings of Japan made them the 'real' victims.
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Old 2008-12-22, 22:57   Link #294
kyon.haruhi.suzumiya
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Originally Posted by Nerroth View Post
So now you speak for everyone in the Home Islands, then?
What, Home Islands? UK? No I don't.

Quote:
The things that happened to German civilians during the Allied air raids, and the onslught of the Red Army in their drive to Berlin, were horrifying - but Germans (and others) look at them in the context of the massive crimes committed by the Nazis in the course of the War, and with the acknowledgment of the millions who died under Hitler's rule.
At least they [Germany] don't try to portray themselves as victims. THey admit, they apologise, they change. EU moves on.

Quote:
The point I am making is that the same should apply in East Asia - and pretending that Japan was unblemished is no more fair than trying to pretend the bombings of Japan made them the 'real' victims.
I'm not pretending that Japan was faultless. I'm saying the opposite. My point is that JAPAN's authorities [esp the Government] always go about saying that they were the victims, US and China were to blame, etc. I disagree with the stance Tokyo takes on this.
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Old 2008-12-22, 23:09   Link #295
Nerroth
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'Home Islands' refers to Japan. The term is not used in the UK, not least because things are somewhat more complicated identity-wise between certain parts of the UK and the Republic of Ireland...


...and when officials in Japan come out with that kind of line, of course I disagree vehemently - but it's not much more helpful to say that every official figure in the country thinks the same, or that it's ok to go too far in the other direction.
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Old 2008-12-22, 23:13   Link #296
kyon.haruhi.suzumiya
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Originally Posted by Nerroth View Post
'Home Islands' refers to Japan. The term is not used in the UK, not least because things are somewhat more complicated identity-wise between certain parts of the UK and the Republic of Ireland...
Gosh, I thought you said HOME NATIONS. I always mix them up. Home Islands isn't the term to use, AFAIK. Maybe just JAPAN might be better, IMO.

Quote:
...and when officials in Japan come out with that kind of line, of course I disagree vehemently - but it's not much more helpful to say that every official figure in the country thinks the same, or that it's ok to go too far in the other direction.
Well, that's the official TOKYO stance. The OSAKA stance [the stance in Kansai] is different. [We're more pacifist.] And don't even talk about outside Honshu, for other than Okinawa and Nagasaki, the rest have not much idea about WWII.
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Old 2008-12-22, 23:32   Link #297
Nerroth
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It's funny - when talking sport, especially rugby union, the term Home Nations is fine in Ireland and in the UK, but politically-speaking it gets a bit trickier...


Not necessarily funny ha-ha, mind you.


And I did read somewhere about how some in Hiroshima itself were pissed at the way the government in Tokyo was doing things - can't quite recall why, though.
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Old 2008-12-22, 23:34   Link #298
kyon.haruhi.suzumiya
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Originally Posted by Nerroth View Post
It's funny - when talking sport, especially rugby union, the term Home Nations is fine in Ireland and in the UK, but politically-speaking it gets a bit trickier...


Not necessarily funny ha-ha, mind you.
I know. It's a messy subject. Avoid if possible.


Quote:
And I did read somewhere about how some in Hiroshima itself were pissed at the way the government in Tokyo was doing things - can't quite recall why, though.
The compensation for the victims in Hiroshima/Nagasaki, right? I know. Tokyo is always like that. That and the Pension thing, really riled the folks out there.
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Old 2008-12-22, 23:36   Link #299
Nerroth
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Well, you see, I was born in Belfast, I have family from NI and the Republic (where I lived most of my life) and I am more trouble than I am worth anyway, so avoiding that subject is kind of hard to do...


...but then, problems don't go away unless people are willing to at least try and talk about them,.
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Old 2008-12-22, 23:40   Link #300
kyon.haruhi.suzumiya
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Originally Posted by Nerroth View Post
Well, you see, I was born in Belfast, I have family from NI and the Republic (where I lived most of my life) and I am more trouble than I am worth anyway, so avoiding that subject is kind of hard to do...


...but then, problems don't go away unless people are willing to at least try and talk about them,.
Gah. I have nothing to say now. I can only say that I have parents and grandparents from the three East Asian nations.
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