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Old 2008-11-24, 13:25   Link #81
incube
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow Minato View Post
Will East Asia get along? Will Israel and the rest of Middle East get along? Will the US and Russia get along? Its the same question.

Considering that China is on a mass military campaign, while North Korea is building nukes specifically targetting Japan, the problem is at large. Aside from not making their military budgets transparent, China is also producing large amounts of problematic edible products, yet the upper echelon of their government tries to cover it up for them. North Korea, on the other hand is even worse. Not just that they won't hand back the abductees, they are also going back on their words concerning their denuclearization process, not letting any international group to examine their process or check out their nuclear sites. On top of this, they are also selling nuclear-related technology to Syria which implies that North Korea is a state-sponsoring terrorism, yet the US removed them from their official blacklist.

On the other hand, the South Korean government seems to be very supportive of North Korea, even though the merging of the two states will cause a negative impact to the South Korean economy obviously for a variety of reasons, such as that the possible mass relocation of North Koreans into South Korea would put a toll onto their welfare benefits, while the amount of food consumption in the South would be raised significantly, causing possible mass imports from other nations which can be quite costly. If there is a possible merge, which nation will be controlling the military? Will Kim Jong Il let South Korea manage their military? I don't think so..
I really dont agree with anything of what you are saying... You cant pick a problem and only analize it from one point of view.

China isnt producing mass unedible food and the goverment isnt covering up any of that.... dont think that Chinese ppl are ignorant or stupid as not to be concerned about what they eat.

North coreans supporting terrorism and selling nuclear technology to syria? Remember when the us invaded Irak claiming they had some nukes?

And tell me one more thing... what does the us have to do in between China and Taiwan? On one side they are trying to talk about peace and unification and on the other side the us is selling military technology and equipment to taiwan? I definitly dont think stocking Taiwan with missiles will help solve anything at all and believe it or not China has no intention of attacking Taiwan cause it still considers it part of the same country and same ppl.
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Old 2008-11-24, 13:52   Link #82
Lathdrinor
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The thing to understand about China's military build-up is that China, unlike Japan and South Korea, does not have a mutual defense treaty with the US nor is it likely to get one. Consequently, of course the PRC's military is going to keep growing - it has to because the PRC alone is responsible for its defense. A lot of the Japanese & South Korean military spending gets folded into US military spending so you never see it. If the US cancels its treaties with Japan & South Korea tomorrow, I'd expect massive build-ups from both of those countries as well, pacifist constitution or no pacifist constitution.

Arguing otherwise is to be naive about the nature of nation-states.
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Old 2008-11-24, 15:06   Link #83
Shadow Kira01
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Quote:
Originally Posted by incube View Post
China isnt producing mass unedible food and the goverment isnt covering up any of that.... dont think that Chinese ppl are ignorant or stupid as not to be concerned about what they eat.
Remember that case of contaminated gyoza at the beginning of the year? It's been awhile and nothing has been revealed as of yet. Although the Chinese authorities claim to be willing to cooperate with the Japanese authorities to investigate the source of the gyoza's contamination, whether it had occurred during the manufacturing phrase in China, the packaging phrase in China, the shipping routes to Japan, or at the supermarket in Japan. None of it were revealed to the public and the case itself is currently frozen, like the gyoza itself.

I am not saying that China is producing mass unedibles, but rather to say.. Lots of the foods they produce are low in quality or seems to be frequently contaminated by a high percentage of parts per million of pesticide. This does not imply that Chinese people are ignorant or stupid in any way. I never said any of that. Of course, they care what they eat, but for some reason, it seems as though they don't care what the importers of other countries eat. People who imported goods from China had 1-2 good reasons: 1) the goods are cheap and 2) they trust what China says of its quality. However, when things occur, people felt betrayed of such trust.
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Old 2008-11-24, 19:06   Link #84
Tri-ring
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Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf View Post
All right, perhaps you have a point, and that I'm being too critical of these nationalistic officials. I'll gladly concede that it's stretching it a bit far to claim that they want to start another war of agression.

But what is not right, and will never be right, is the continued attempts of these officials to downplay the atrocities of the Sino-Japanese war and World War II.

You say that ordinary Japanese disapprove of their antics. Well then, how come I don't hear more of them coming forward to condemn these officials?
Here is the problem with mass media, there was a barrage of statements from various people both from the government and critics denouncing Tagogami essay which I saw on air but I guess most nation's news agency and/or news programs thought it will water down the sensation so they chose not to pick up those comments.


Quote:
Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf View Post
Is it a case of ordinary Japanese not caring about the truth? Is it a case of quiet acquiescence of these officials' claims? Given the widespread lack of information, within Japan, of what truly transpired in East Asia during World War II, how many ordinary Japanese know enough to show up these nationalists for the dangerous fools that they are?

Those are the questions which bother people in the rest of East Asia. And please, it's not just ethnic Chinese who bear a grudge. Koreans too. Filippinos as well. East Asians well remember the Japanese atroicties of the past. So long as ordinary Japanese allow revisionist officials to run around unchecked, Japan will never fully redeem forgiveness in our eyes.
Let's see those results first huhh?
Because the survey done by Yomiuri collaborating with various news agencies within those countires like Malaysia, Thailand, and so on shows results oppsite of what you're saying.
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Old 2008-11-24, 19:36   Link #85
Terrestrial Dream
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I just got a question. What is everyone's thought on Dokdo/Liancourt Rocks? Probably the mots debated topic between Korea and Japan and one of the biggest source of hostility between each others. I brought this up since this is one issue that must be cleared in order to end the hatred embedded in the society of Korea and Japan. I would really like to hear opnion from people like Tri-ring or Vexx, who either is Japanese or has very close family relationship with a Japanese.
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Old 2008-11-24, 19:46   Link #86
Tri-ring
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Originally Posted by Peroyasha View Post
1) It seem like that was an internet poll of 12000 posters not a scientific study. The article doesn't say who did the study or who (age group, demographics, etc) the samplings were taken from. Maybe it was the *Xinhua/China View news agency who did the poll, but it doesn't mean it was a scientific study, and by looking what that article reported, I doubt it was.
I assume you do not understand how survey on national consensus is conducted.
Demographics and or age group are not needed to obtain the above objective and those are for further studies in breaking down opinion into smaller clusters.

Method suggested in obtaining national consensus is the similar to gaining viewing rates on TV where sample number of 0.25% of the total population in complete random selection is picked in answering the question.

Of course internet polls are considered biased in way since you need PC literacy in connecting but beyond that it is just another medium.
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Old 2008-11-24, 19:53   Link #87
Lathdrinor
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You cannot paint Japanese colonialism with a broad brush when its effects were different in different parts of the world. Taiwan, for example, was treated relatively well, and certain places in Southeast Asia never fell under Japanese control for long, or otherwise had mixed feelings because of their experiences with Western colonialism. Places that resisted Japanese incursions fared worse, and places that were never colonies of the West (ie China, Korea) have stronger anti-Japanese feelings because as far as they're concerned, Japan is THE colonizer. You then have to add in the various war atrocities Japan committed in East Asia, and the strong sense of nationalism among East Asians.

Consider Japan's invasion of Malaysia, for example:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanes...sion_of_Malaya

The Japanese were basically fighting with the British, here, who ruled Malaysia with an iron fist for decades. In that sense, the Japanese were actually less foreign than the Malaysians' previous rulers, and their rule of Malaysia lasted barely three years. While there were atrocities during this time, the atrocities mainly targeted ethnic Chinese, who were discriminated against by both the Japanese and the local Malaysians, and who, as a result, eventually seceded and formed Singapore. So it's completely explicable why the Malaysians do not bear that much of a grudge against the Japanese, whereas the Chinese very much do.

In Thailand, the occupation was similarly short-lived, and the Japanese gained access to the country mainly through the cooperation of the Thai (Pibun's) government. They never had to implement any draconian policies on the populace because the government of Thailand fell in line and allied with Japan. Again, completely different situation than what happened in China and Korea.

In Indonesia, Dutch colonialism had created a situation in which the Indonesians welcomed (at least initially) the Japanese as liberators.

To truly understand history, you must understand both the broad strokes and the nuances, not one or the other.
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Old 2008-11-24, 19:55   Link #88
Tri-ring
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terrestrial Dream View Post
I just got a question. What is everyone's thought on Dokdo/Liancourt Rocks? Probably the mots debated topic between Korea and Japan and one of the biggest source of hostility between each others. I brought this up since this is one issue that must be cleared in order to end the hatred embedded in the society of Korea and Japan. I would really like to hear opnion from people like Tri-ring or Vexx, who either is Japanese or has very close family relationship with a Japanese.
Touchy subject, Japan have insisted numerous time towards the Korean Government that it should be resolved in international court which has been rejected by the Korean Government saying there is no dsipute to discuss.
The Korean government has been occupying the island by force for about 50 years and they have no intention to budge.
On the other hand Japan can't do anything about it since we have article 9 stating we will not use military force in resolving a conflict in interest which is exactly what that island is.
Japan also have territorial dispute with Russian over the Kuril Islands in the north and Senkaku Islands in the south with Taiwan.
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Old 2008-11-24, 20:07   Link #89
Tri-ring
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Originally Posted by Lathdrinor View Post
You cannot paint Japanese colonialism with a broad brush when its effects were different in different parts of the world. Taiwan, for example, was treated relatively well, and certain places in Southeast Asia never fell under Japanese control for long, or otherwise had mixed feelings because of their experiences with Western colonialism. Places that resisted Japanese incursions fared worse, and places that were never colonies of the West (ie China, Korea) have stronger anti-Japanese feelings because as far as they're concerned, Japan is THE colonizer. You then have to add in the various war atrocities Japan committed in East Asia, and the strong sense of nationalism among East Asians.
From how I see it you broad brushing your own assumptions without any substance.
Do you have any survey results to back up your claim?

One more thing, there is no reason I can think of to treat the Taiwan people differently from the Korean people and looking at past government spenditure in developing infrastructure, Korea was given perferable treatment contrary to what you state.

I also remember reading that the indginious people of Malaya cooperated with the Japanese in driving off the British colonist with the Chinese immigrants who colaborated with the British(later becoming commiunist rebels) in subjugating the indigenous people.
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Old 2008-11-24, 20:12   Link #90
Terrestrial Dream
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Originally Posted by Tri-ring View Post
Touchy subject, Japan have insisted numerous time towards the Korean Government that it should be resolved in international court which has been rejected by the Korean Government saying there is no dsipute to discuss.
The Korean government has been occupying the island by force for about 50 years and they have no intention to budge.
On the other hand Japan can't do anything about it since we have article 9 stating we will not use military force in resolving a conflict in interest which is exactly what that island is.
Japan also have territorial dispute with Russian over the Kuril Islands in the north and Senkaku Islands in the south with Taiwan.
Thank you for the rather quick reply, though I think that the Korean gov't doesn't want to get involved with the international court as they believed that the historical background supports them and there should be no reason to be disputed over it.
This is really touchy topic so I kinda don't want to share my view(but of course you could probably guess my view on this ). But in Japan I think its mostly right-wing Japanese who supports it? So what is the general view by the people?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tri-ring View Post
From how I see it you broad brushing your own assumptions without any substance.
Do you have any survey results to back up your claim?

One more thing, there is no reason I can think of to treat the Taiwan people differently from the Korean people and looking at past government spenditure in developing infrastructure, Korea was given perferable treatment contrary to what you state.
Correct me if I am wrong but I think that Japan developed infrastructure in mostly North Korea rather than South Korea, which resulted in South Korea to be less developed.
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Old 2008-11-24, 20:12   Link #91
Lathdrinor
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Quote:
From how I see it you broad brushing your own assumptions without any substance.
Do you have any survey results to back up your claim?

One more thing, there is no reason I can think of to treat the Taiwan people differently from the Korean people and looking at past government spenditure in developing infrastructure, Korea was given perferable treatment contrary to what you state.
I don't think you understand what I said.

Your survey results completely back my argument - the Chinese & the Koreans hate the Japanese more. The people of Southeast Asia hate the Japanese less.

As far as the Taiwan vs. Korea argument goes, you need to realize that Korea saw itself as a nation whereas Taiwan did not. Korean nationalism rose during Japanese occupation. Taiwanese nationalism is still a work in progress.
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Old 2008-11-24, 20:26   Link #92
Tri-ring
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Originally Posted by Terrestrial Dream View Post
Thank you for the rather quick reply, though I think that the Korean gov't doesn't want to get involved with the international court as they believed that the historical background supports them and there should be no reason to be disputed over it.
This is really touchy topic so I kinda don't want to share my view(but of course you could probably guess my view on this ). But in Japan I think its mostly right-wing Japanese who supports it? So what is the general view by the people?
I wouldn't limit this topic to right-wingers especially people living in Shimane and/or Tottori who had economic interest since I hear it is(was) good fishing grounds but the Korean military drives away any Japanese fishing boats nearing the claimed border.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terrestrial Dream View Post
Correct me if I am wrong but I think that Japan developed infrastructure in mostly North Korea rather than South Korea, which resulted in South Korea to be less developed.
I am not really sure about the break down in how they allocated the budget but I believe they place more money in the north since it was more rich in natural resources.
Budget for general education as well as transfer of agricultrual development and medical assistance should have been fairly the same though.
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Old 2008-11-24, 20:41   Link #93
Lathdrinor
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I also remember reading that the indginious people of Malaya cooperated with the Japanese in driving off the British colonist with the Chinese immigrants who colaborated with the British(later becoming commiunist rebels) in subjugating the indigenous people.
That's how the Malays see it, at least, which again supports my point - it makes complete sense that Malaysians would not view Japanese occupation with the same lens as the Chinese, who benefited from British rule and were massacred under Japanese rule. Really, the hatred borne against Japan by many Chinese is quite deep and tinges on ethnic hatred (on the level of Jewish resentment against Germans). It's not simply a construct of the PRC government. If China became democratic tomorrow, it'd still bear the same grudge.

If nothing else, the PRC has tried to patch relations between China and Japan more than it has tried to harm it.
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Old 2008-11-24, 21:26   Link #94
Tri-ring
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Originally Posted by Lathdrinor View Post
That's how the Malays see it, at least, which again supports my point - it makes complete sense that Malaysians would not view Japanese occupation with the same lens as the Chinese, who benefited from British rule and were massacred under Japanese rule. Really, the hatred borne against Japan by many Chinese is quite deep and tinges on ethnic hatred (on the level of Jewish resentment against Germans). It's not simply a construct of the PRC government. If China became democratic tomorrow, it'd still bear the same grudge.
Here again we hear of personal assumptions as if they were general opinion.
I have not heard of present Jewish people in general placing resentment against present Germans.
So please show us some survey result supporting your claim.
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Old 2008-11-24, 22:08   Link #95
TigerII
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I did see some anti-Japanese posters in Shanghai two years ago. Most talked about the threat of the Japanese economy(lol), but a few talked about the atrocities committed. There was a small anti-Japanese rally as well. I also talked to many people about their opinion(I was researching the Sino-Japanese war). Most didn't hate the Japanese, some did(like any citizen of any nation. Some will always dislike/hate). The problem with this is it can be attributed to the government, so no idea if it is real dislike of the Japanese, or forced government dislike. No idea if it is like this in the rest of China.

Too be fair though, I saw quite a bit of dislike for pretty much any foreigner(not just Chinese) when I was in Japan. Mainly no service at stores, or snide remarks. Nothing violent.
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Old 2008-11-24, 22:33   Link #96
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Originally Posted by TigerII View Post
I also talked to many (Chinese) about their opinion(I was researching the Sino-Japanese war). Most didn't hate the Japanese, some did(like any citizen of any nation. Some will always dislike/hate). The problem with this is it can be attributed to the government, so no idea if it is real dislike of the Japanese, or forced government dislike. No idea if it is like this in the rest of China.
My personal feeling about mainland Chinese is about the same. And mind you, I'm ethnically Chinese, but even I encounter occasional snooty reactions from China's Chinese, for being — would you believe — not "Chinese" enough. They look down on me for not being able to speak Mandarin as fluently as them, for not knowing enough about China's "glorious" history, cultural heritage, and so on.

What we're seeing, as China grows economically stronger, is an increasing number of young Chinese who mistake blind patriotism for national pride. Kinny Riddle once labelled them fenqing (愤青), that is, "angry youth".

These people swell with pride at any mention of China's progress today, but take offence at the merest mention of China's problems. Not surprisingly, Americans and the Japanese are their favourite punching bags.

To be very honest, I know why they behave the way they do, because I used to be as blindly patriotic to my country as well. T'was the 1980s, the heydays of Singapore's status as one of the four Asian tigers. To me, at the time, everything my government did was for the best, and I would brook no insult to their supposed prowess.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tri-ring View Post
I also remember reading that the indginious people of Malaya cooperated with the Japanese in driving off the British colonist with the Chinese immigrants who colaborated with the British(later becoming commiunist rebels) in subjugating the indigenous people.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lathdrinor View Post
You cannot paint Japanese colonialism with a broad brush when its effects were different in different parts of the world.
To reiterate Lathdrinor's rebuttal to your point, bear in mind that even among the Malays, there were differences in how they viewed the Japanese. One Malay brigade fought to the last man in the Battle of Bukit Chandu in Singapore. After the battle, the unit's commander, Lieutenant Adnan Saidi, "was hung by his legs to a tree and repeatedly bayoneted before his mutilated body was burnt".

In the eyes of this particular troop of Malay volunteers, there was no question that the Japanese were the invaders, rather than liberators. So, be very careful how you paint your brush when making assumptions about ethnic feelings against the Japanese.
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Old 2008-11-24, 22:53   Link #97
Lathdrinor
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Originally Posted by Tri-ring View Post
Here again we hear of personal assumptions as if they were general opinion.
I have not heard of present Jewish people in general placing resentment against present Germans.
So please show us some survey result supporting your claim.
In 1993, a survey conducted in Israel showed that only 50.3% of Israeli Jews considered Germany a different Germany than Nazi Germany. In 1999, 37% of Israeli Jews said that they would prefer non-German products (while only 25% said that they would not mind German products).

Your poll shows that about 30% of China still greatly resents Japan. That's about right on par, isn't it?

During Merkel's recent visit to Israel, several members of the Israeli Parliament walked out on just hearing German being spoken in a public place. That's the level of resentment that still persists among a segment of the older population.

Israeli-German relations started improving significantly around the beginning of the 21st century. The biggest factor is probably the emergence of Iran, which put resentment against Germany on the back-burner as Israel was threatened by a new, more pressing enemy. The need to secure Europe's support for Israel in dealing with the Palestinian and the Iranian problem outweighed older resentments, and the positive attitude displayed by the German leadership throughout the 20th century gradually eroded older anti-German sentiments.

Even then, a significant segment (~20%) of Israeli society do not acknowledge that modern Germany is altogether different from Nazi Germany.

Given that, I am not at all surprised at the anti-Japanese sentiments in China and Korea. Two things have to be kept in mind. Israel is far from Germany and has new enemies. China and Korea are right next to Japan and are still rival countries. Israel has no dispute with Germany. China and Korea both have disputes with Japan.

History has a way of seeping back into present day relations. The Japanese leadership certainly has a habit of reminding Japan's neighbors of history again and again (via the Yasukuni shrine visits, textbook rewrites, etc.), but even beyond that insensitivity, the rivalry between the three East Asian states guarantees that historical views will remain unchanged. That's the problem with East Asia.
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Old 2008-11-24, 23:04   Link #98
TigerII
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I also forgot to mention that many of those I talked to said that they would have a better view of Japan if the Japanese government would fully acknowledge the atrocities they committed to not only the Chinese(The figures given out by the Japanese government are extremely low), but those of other occupied areas(Hell, some even told me they wished Japan would acknowledge what they did even to the Australians, British(and other Commonwealths), Dutch, french, and Americans.
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Old 2008-11-24, 23:08   Link #99
Tri-ring
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Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
Perhaps Tri-ring would explain to me the difference between "politicians, government officials, military" and "anyone within the government" in denying that some parts of the Japanese power structure wouldn't like a return to military dominance?

Gladly on the first part, since our political system is based on parliamentary diplomatic system, the government consists of politicians who are elected by the people and bureaucrats who are hired by the ministry(and/or government agencies) itself so a high ranking government official does not necessarily be an elected politicians.
Same with the Military but they have a different hiring policy then that of ministries and applied different regulations so I have divided them from other bureaucrats ( although they are same in theory).
Japan wanting to return to military power dominance has always been debated with article 9 and mutual security pack with the US as a set and I have not heard of any debate without mention of the two.
So no I believe it will always be a baseless subject of Japan having ambitions to regain military power dominance even if some dumb a$$ government official is caught talking about it and edited out of context.
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Old 2008-11-24, 23:12   Link #100
TigerII
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I don't really see a problem with Japan building a stronger military. As long as Japan didn't romp around the Pacific again, it would be a way of asserting oneself (Especially with the Kuril Islands dispute with the Russians).
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