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Old 2011-08-11, 18:26   Link #261
leukrota
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Quote:
Originally Posted by I_am_Kami View Post
-Level 5s aren't just chosen they are measured by power. 20,000 level 3 Sisters= 20 Mikotos. Or something like that
But, if I remember correctly, the board (and in consequence Aleister) can influence what espers get more attention (investment) for their development, and thus indirectly influencing who can get to level 5. Or at least that's Mugino's theory.

I know it's supposed to be potential based on DNA, but that could be subjective.

Quote:
Originally Posted by I_am_Kami View Post
-Awaki and Rikou are said to be level 5's if they could control their powers better.
Right, Rikou still isn't a level 5 yet, but it's not out of the question for her to become one by learning better control, now that the body clear is... well, clear from her body.

_____

Anyway, under this assumption, Aogami could indeed fit with the level 5's as the lustful one.
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Old 2011-08-11, 18:32   Link #262
Syed_Seinaru_Migi
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Originally Posted by Zakoo View Post
The lust goes for Aogami-sama.

Hope you guys right about Aogami a lvl 5 in hidden...i also hope its come true.......
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Old 2011-08-11, 19:56   Link #263
I_am_Kami
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leukrota View Post
But, if I remember correctly, the board (and in consequence Aleister) can influence what espers get more attention (investment) for their development, and thus indirectly influencing who can get to level 5. Or at least that's Mugino's theory.
Only those with the potential to reach it. I believe Mikoto was one of the ones that surprised them with her becoming a level 5.
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Old 2011-08-11, 20:12   Link #264
Miraluka
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Quote:
Originally Posted by I_am_Kami View Post
Only those with the potential to reach it. I believe Mikoto was one of the ones that surprised them with her becoming a level 5.
Quote:
“…Come to think of it, I did find it odd,” said Mugino Shizuri as if she had recalled something. “I caught a glimpse of a project involving the #3 once. She was tricked when she was a little kid in order to provide her DNA map. That map was used to mass produce military cellular clones. …But when you think about it rationally, the time period does not make sense. I’m pretty sure that the #3 took time to work up from Level 1 to Level 5. In other words, at the point when she provided her DNA map, she was not yet a Level 5.”

The idea of military clones was shocking, but Hamazura did not think it would be impossible given Academy City’s technology.

“In other words, did the researchers know form the beginning that she would become a Level 5, so they got ahold of her DNA map ahead of time?”

In response, the woman in the suit gave a heavy breath within her helmet.

“Well, there are some problems with the Parameter List. For instance, the DNA patent and the living resource of a Level 5 are very valuable, but quite a bit of money is needed to obtain them. However, with a Level 1 who possesses the possibility of becoming a Level 5 in the future, those things can be obtained much more cheaply. When a fragment of the list is leaked, problems occur where blood is shed in secret due to people trying to get rich quick off of it.”

“…”

“But if you look at everything together, I think it works out as a positive thing. Putting together complex Curriculums for people who aren’t going to grow is just a waste of time, money, and resources. By distributing what would have been wasted with a focus on the useful espers, it is all much more effective in the end.”
With the PL they knew who can get to reach higher level faster, so those who will slow to develop will be discarded in order to save money, time and resources in accord to the text.
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Old 2011-08-11, 20:25   Link #265
Chaos2Frozen
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The perimeter list does not dictate who gets to be a Level 5- not in the way you guys are suggesting. It relies alot on the individual's potential, whether he or she has it in themselves to reach Level 5.

It does not magically turn anyone into a Level 5, in fact the whole point of the List is to pick out the ones that have potential because not everyone is created equally.

I know why it would be controversial in the story, but I don't get why we have some people surprised by it- In real life, everybody pays more attention to the 'gifted' students- this is nothing new, education isn't free you know.
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Old 2011-08-11, 20:34   Link #266
Miraluka
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The education isn't free on most countries, right? The state has to made sure of it.....
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Old 2011-08-11, 20:57   Link #267
Chaos2Frozen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilfriback View Post
The education isn't free on most countries, right? The state has to made sure of it.....
Well money has to come from somewhere to buy books, build facilities and hired/trained teachers.

The question then would be whether you want to sacrifice good students for bad students, or bad students for good students. Don't forget, the more good students you produce the better funding you'll get, and with better funding you can help more students... While putting in effort to help bad students borderline pass is just simply a question of moral.
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Old 2011-08-11, 22:14   Link #268
Miraluka
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Thats a point of view that usually would come from me...
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Old 2011-08-28, 03:51   Link #269
judasmartel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leukrota View Post
I just read some curious speculation on 4ch...

What do you guys think about the level 5's being related to the seven sins?
Something like this:

1 Accelerator - Wrath
2 Kakine - Greed
3 Misaka - Pride
4 Mugino - Envy
5 Shokuhou - Lust?
6 ? - Gluttony
7 Gunha 8 Takitsubo - Sloth

Alternatively, Gunha could be Pride instead of Misaka. (And according to some doujins, Misaka could be lust )
Or that the seven level 5s could be based on The Seven Archangels, compared to God's Right Seat's Four Archangels. After all, Aleister Crowley aims to become the god of his own universe.

(1) Accelerator -> Michael, The Regard of God
(2) Kakine -> Gabriel, The Power of God
(3*) Mikoto -> Raphael, God's Medicine
(4) Mugino -> Uriel, The Flame of God
(5+) Misaki -> Jehudiel, The Praise of God
(6) Unknown -> Shealtiel, The Prayer of God
(7-) Gunha -> Barachiel, The Blessing of God

* I don't think Mikoto corresponds to Raphael, though electricity DOES contribute to the technological advances in medicine.
+ I do think that her telepathic powers somehow has something to do with "Praise".
- I mean, seriously, look at the guy.

And another theory of mine:

Spoiler for The Sixth Level Five:

Last edited by judasmartel; 2011-08-29 at 20:49. Reason: I mistook that one for Saten, lol.
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Old 2011-10-02, 20:48   Link #270
Flere821
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Got directed to this thread if we wanted to talk about the upcoming Index movie and needs to give novel spoilers... I'm going to limit myself to posting here since I'm not sure I can hold back on LN plot.

So, any guesses? Vol15's Battle Royale? Material from before Touma's memory loss Kamachi said he wanted to do but never managed to fit in the novels (eg, how Touma met Aogami and Komoe-sensei)? Or would this be filler like the last Railgun OVA?
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Old 2011-10-02, 20:58   Link #271
Ilidsor
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Originally Posted by Flere821 View Post
Got directed to this thread if we wanted to talk about the upcoming Index movie and needs to give novel spoilers... I'm going to limit myself to posting here since I'm not sure I can hold back on LN plot.

So, any guesses? Vol15's Battle Royale? Material from before Touma's memory loss Kamachi said he wanted to do but never managed to fit in the novels (eg, how Touma met Aogami and Komoe-sensei)? Or would this be filler like the last Railgun OVA?
I'm guessing not battle royale because that doesn't include Touma, Index, or Mikoto all of who were on the promotional shot (besides with Mikoto's popularity they will include her no matter what). The prequel I could see happening, it would be nice to see some more of Touma from before his memory loss. The filler seems the most likely to me though unless the WW3 theory is correct (It doesn't air until after Index III which covers until the end of volume 19 and some side stories, and the movie about WW3)
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Old 2011-10-02, 21:03   Link #272
Mr.Kyon
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We'll see when we get info on October 10. I doubt we'll see anything from before the Winter uniforms kicked in if we stick to the movie announcement picture.

Let's face it, the movie backs itself into a corner if it is set before Volume 13--so I hope the movie comes out after season 3, assuming the movie is indeed scheduled for 2013.

My main concern is the villain. A good villain that's actually competent and abuses the limitations of Imagine Breaker--thus setting the stage for cooperation and team strategy to take him down--could carry an otherwise forgettable plot that has no real affect on the main story.
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Old 2011-12-18, 07:20   Link #273
Chaos2Frozen
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You know, just to be super-extra careful, I've decided to post this statement here instead of the Shana thread for it's borderline spoiler-ish nature because I've made a similar mistake once and I'm not willing to risk it again.

So here goes-

"Watching Shana III, I have a pretty good idea how JC Staff would be handling Index WWIII arc. If anything I take it as a dry run before the 'real deal' (lol)"


There, I said it.

(Note that I've cleverly avoided directly mentioning any plot points to Shana III no matter how retardedly obvious or how badly kept the secret is on the Internet that any Anime viewer worth his/her salt could find out in a heartbeat, not to mention it's likely those who never watched the show by now probably wouldn't give two-hoot about it; But I digress.)

Last edited by Chaos2Frozen; 2011-12-18 at 07:43.
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Old 2011-12-18, 10:05   Link #274
Cosmic Eagle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
The perimeter list does not dictate who gets to be a Level 5- not in the way you guys are suggesting. It relies alot on the individual's potential, whether he or she has it in themselves to reach Level 5.

It does not magically turn anyone into a Level 5, in fact the whole point of the List is to pick out the ones that have potential because not everyone is created equally.

I know why it would be controversial in the story, but I don't get why we have some people surprised by it- In real life, everybody pays more attention to the 'gifted' students- this is nothing new, education isn't free you know.
It means that those not on the List can forget about ascending higher than what their brains are capable of.....

It's surprising because then it means they'd worked for nothing. It means they'd be lied to
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Old 2011-12-18, 10:09   Link #275
Cosmic Eagle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by judasmartel View Post

Spoiler for The Sixth Level Five:
She doesn't Awaken...

You don't call a real Angel an Awakened being since they don't need to in the first place.

But she is one of the AIM Angels.

Quote:
Got directed to this thread if we wanted to talk about the upcoming Index movie and needs to give novel spoilers... I'm going to limit myself to posting here since I'm not sure I can hold back on LN plot.

So, any guesses? Vol15's Battle Royale? Material from before Touma's memory loss Kamachi said he wanted to do but never managed to fit in the novels (eg, how Touma met Aogami and Komoe-sensei)? Or would this be filler like the last Railgun OVA?
I hope it's WWIII....
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Old 2011-12-18, 16:13   Link #276
Chaos2Frozen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle View Post
It means that those not on the List can forget about ascending higher than what their brains are capable of.....

It's surprising because then it means they'd worked for nothing. It means they'd be lied to
I don't know why you bring this up again, but the fact that they're not on the list means they don't have what it takes to ascend higher to begin with, not the other way around. Do you think if tomorrow Hamazura was on the list it would automatically turn him into a level 4? No, he's not on the list in the first place because he doesn't have what it takes.

I'm pretty sure nobody was promised that they could be all powerful.
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Old 2011-12-18, 20:22   Link #277
Cosmic Eagle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
I don't know why you bring this up again, but the fact that they're not on the list means they don't have what it takes to ascend higher to begin with, not the other way around. Do you think if tomorrow Hamazura was on the list it would automatically turn him into a level 4? No, he's not on the list in the first place because he doesn't have what it takes.

I'm pretty sure nobody was promised that they could be all powerful.
if he was on the list it means he CAN be a Level 4.

Since he cannot, then what's his point in slogging it out in AC? (before he got involved in everything of course)

IE everyone without the potential are just being used.

I never said the List determines their rankings.

Quote:
It means that those not on the List can forget about ascending higher than what their brains are capable of.....
See that part
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Old 2011-12-18, 20:34   Link #278
Chaos2Frozen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle View Post
if he was on the list it means he CAN be a Level 4.

Since he cannot, then what's his point in slogging it out in AC? (before he got involved in everything of course)

IE everyone without the potential are just being used.

I never said the List determines their rankings.
Nobody asked him to join Skill-Out and make a waste of his life. By your way of thinking people that can't accomplish anything should just be told straight away so they can give up.

Do you know why parents and teachers never tell their kids that?

And what's the point of slogging it out in AC? How about the best education from the most scientifically advanced city in the world?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle View Post
See that part
That's not how it works, every one that has gotten a high level is because they have that natural capability, not because they got on the list.
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Old 2011-12-28, 17:19   Link #279
Gamble235
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Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
That's not how it works, every one that has gotten a high level is because they have that natural capability, not because they got on the list.
But they got on the list because they have that natural capability, no?
The list, is just, as the name states, a list of parameters. By using it, Academy city can use it's limited resources to produce as many high-level Espers as possible, or at least increase the odds of making high-level espers without wasting too much money on those who will never be able to reach those levels, according to the parameters applicable to power developement.

It's not that surprising, weird or even controversial, considering the goal of the city: SYSTEM, Level 6.

To use a negative example:

Every student in Academy City is basically a lab rat (To Aleister, and possibly the board of directors.) Why waste medicines on rats that dont have the right form of the disease? The PL is made to determine which rats have the best chance to react well to the medicines, and so, on which rats to focus the efforts.

Not an entirely apt example now that I think on it... start-up companies and investors would probably be a better one.
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Old 2011-12-29, 05:20   Link #280
zaeraal
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Exclamation

I think you all are forgetting, that we are talking about science.
Here stuff as natural capability, talent or anything like that ABSOLUTELY DOES NOT MATTER!!!

It has been mentioned several times that the AC scientists are CONSTANTLY researching new methods and drugs that change the structure of brain.
this itself implies that AC science is not perfect and has really big gaps.

If you go even further, we can conclude that AC supercomputers can't simulate reality.
We can deduce this from Aleister plan, that is failing. If they really could do that, his predictions would have had 100% succes rate.

If they can't simulate reality, they can do simulations ONLY and ONLY based on informations they have
And where those informations come from? Yes, they come from the incomplete and insuficient data the AC poses.
(It is 50 years ahead of other countries, but still milion years from being complete)

This TALENT or how they label it.. it is not "how one is close to being a strong esper" but it is "how many methods time/money wise, that AC knows about, are apliable to him, till he becomes a strong esper."
(this is what the parameter list is really about)

So the real reason there exist level 0 (and probably will continue to exist) is because AC does not know how to turn them into strong espers efficiently (or does not know at all).





If you still don't believe, think of it this way - you can have a person, who is a normal person but is a step away from becoming a level 5.
A single dose of drug can bring him to level 5 from nothing.
But if AC does not know what drug it requires, he will forever stay a normal person.
In reverse, if you have a normal person who will require like 1000 doses, but AC knows which ones, he will become a level 5 after a while.


You can even apply this to real life science too. For example I watched this discovery channel, where they said, that something like 5 years ago people finally figured WHAT exact conditions are necesary to create cells without multiplicating the old ones, from inorganic material (artificial cells with no DNA). It were absolutely simple and logical proceses, but no one before had any idea about them. And this was just like touching the surfice of a gigantic iceberg...
This was the first time I realized how extremly shallow the science really is, if they they took so long to figure out something as simple as that, how long will take them to figure out something really difficult like RNA, DNA or other internall cell structures..

Last edited by zaeraal; 2011-12-29 at 06:05.
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