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Old 2014-03-18, 01:49   Link #2181
Chaos2Frozen
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Because we're not fooled by your 'logic'. Saying that Kamijou is the same as Accelerator for killing the clones again is as absurd as saying because you live someone else died as a result because you ate food that could have saved him even though you're hungry.

Perhaps not the best of analogy, but the point is Kamijou didn't kill Elise, he didn't kill the clones. It is unfortunate that the world they live in those things happened but it was definitely not because of him.

At the same time I keep asking, how selfish do you actually think the characters are to ask someone else to sacrifice for them? They weren't there in that world to make that call, and even if they were, how many would actually do it?
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Old 2014-03-18, 02:00   Link #2182
LevelSeven
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^ i never tried to fool others XD

i was curious about how they will act towards him and gaved reasons why they would blame him (maybe hate)...

i think this fits: touma and a innocent girl are on a cliff, before NT9 touma would jump and save the girl (utopia world), after NT9 touma pushes the girl (utopia) into her death because he wants to live.....

makes this comparison sense?? (i dont say i would do something different , im sure i would kick the girl too (why girl? 87% of the cast are ones))
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Old 2014-03-18, 02:09   Link #2183
Chaos2Frozen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LevelSeven View Post
^ i never tried to fool others XD

i was curious about how they will act towards him and gaved reasons why they would blame him (maybe hate)...

i think this fits: touma and a innocent girl are on a cliff, before NT9 touma would jump and save the girl (utopia world), after NT9 touma pushes the girl (utopia) into her death because he wants to live.....

makes this comparison sense?? (i dont say i would do something different , im sure i would kick the girl too (why girl? 87% of the cast are ones))
No it wouldn't because that is still a direct action with an inherit negative connotation. A better way of looking at it is if there were two doors leading to two different lives, the utopia where he doesn't exist, or the original world with all the happiness and tragedies.

Actually, even that is false because I forgot the most important thing- Kamijou wasn't the one who decided which world it would be, it was Othinus who made the final decision.
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Old 2014-03-18, 02:17   Link #2184
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Rather than saying touma become accelerator, is more than he become like archer...losing his ideal, even though not outright throw it out the window
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Old 2014-03-18, 02:39   Link #2185
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^ yeah that would fit better....
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Old 2014-03-18, 03:22   Link #2186
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But there was never an ideal. Will herself had said that Touma never fought for moral reasons nor for an idealstic thought. He fought because he believed wht he fought for was right at the time. It was a case to case basis that didn't link to each other strictly linking to one single school of thought.
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Old 2014-03-18, 03:36   Link #2187
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his ideal was to make everyone smile which he destroyed after erasing the ultimate smiling world...
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Old 2014-03-18, 03:51   Link #2188
SmokinFerret88
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You wanna get technical here, then his ideal is to just live a normal life.

What he wants when he saves people is an ending in which everyone is smiling.

There does exist a difference here.
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How far would you go to save someone...

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How long would you remain defiant before submitting to the Darkness that traps them...
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Old 2014-03-18, 03:55   Link #2189
LevelSeven
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Quote:
You wanna get technical here
no, not really...

Quote:
then his ideal is to just live a normal life.
agree...

Quote:
What he wants when he saves people is an ending in which everyone is smiling.
thanks for correcting

which means that he with "fighting against the world" have done what whitecloud said:
is more than he become like archer...losing his ideal, even though not outright throw it out the window
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Old 2014-03-18, 11:32   Link #2190
dniv
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SmokinFerret88 View Post
You wanna get technical here, then his ideal is to just live a normal life.

What he wants when he saves people is an ending in which everyone is smiling.

There does exist a difference here.
Yes this is perfect.

@Levelseven

To be clear, in version Omega none of Touma's friends were there.

All of those people were different people who didn't remember the past. Because they didn't remember the past they were completely different people.

This is why Touma tried to bring his friends back. They were just overwritten or "destroyed" by Othinus and Touma tried to bring them back. This is different from what you said earlier.

One other thing:

The distinction between how Touma acts now and beforehand you might be trying to make is this.

Beforehand, Touma would do anything he could while surviving to save other people, now Touma will still do anything he can while not having to kill himself in order to save other people. His goals haven't changed. He never wanted other people to kill themselves to bring about a happy ending. This which has been constant in this series has always been the case. He thinks no one should kill themselves to save other people, and that it is completely unfair to make someone lose their life for other people's happiness. This is true because when you lose your life you are making other people happy but then they are also responsible for the fact that you lost your life and that leaves a bitter aftertaste in their mouths.

His ideals didn't change one bit, the only thing that changed at all was the fact that he decided to apply the same rule to himself. That's what the will of the Misaka network told him. She said that if he doesn't let other people kill themselves to save the day, he shouldn't kill himself either. That was what was true in the Sisters arc when he wouldn't let Mikoto fight Accelerator. Nothing has changed here. The only difference is the scale of the "positive benefit of the result of his actions." The big difference was that he stopped treating himself like trash, which was refreshing.

This is why the Ultimate Smiling world wasn't a good world at all. To make it happen he had to kill himself. And if he killed himself, he wouldn't be smiling, and neither would anyone else if they found out. And Misaka Will could just tell everyone else about what happened using her data even if he didn't.

The funniest thing here is that Touma only listened to her because he had nothing else to do with his time. Mikoto told him the same thing before, but because he had to save the day he didn't listen to her. I can see why he ignored her now. He has to break to listen to something like that.

Last edited by dniv; 2014-03-18 at 11:48.
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Old 2014-03-18, 11:43   Link #2191
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Touma is just too awesome but what makes him more badass is when he goes berserker and have the dragon on his right arm.
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Old 2014-03-18, 11:59   Link #2192
demino_hellsin
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I wonder why is it that of all shounen heroes, I find Touma to be the most sincere and believable in all of his heroics. Even more so when he doesn't see what he does as heroics but instead as things any person in his position would have done.

NT9 changed him in ways that began to make him think that he mattered as well. Everyone's happiness is not his only happiness. He has his own happiness to think about now as well instead of just taking on everyone else's misfortune.
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Old 2014-03-18, 13:18   Link #2193
Chaos2Frozen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LevelSeven View Post
his ideal was to make everyone smile which he destroyed after erasing the ultimate smiling world...
Othinus erased that world, not Kamijou. He lost the fight and was reduced to half a body with no power left.

In his last breath he didn't even tell her to bring back the old world or to take away the Utopia, it was she who decided that this is the world that she want to be in.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LevelSeven View Post

thanks for correcting

which means that he with "fighting against the world" have done what whitecloud said:
is more than he become like archer...losing his ideal, even though not outright throw it out the window
Archer was a man who wanted to become a hero but gave up because he deemed it hopeless.

Kamijou hasn't given up on anything, and like what Dniv said, he's just expanding it to include himself, which means it's making his impossible dream even harder which is the opposite of Archer.

Last edited by Chaos2Frozen; 2014-03-18 at 13:51.
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Old 2014-03-19, 00:56   Link #2194
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
Changing the subject a bit- I just remembered something when I saw this--



Out of curiosity, who do you guys picture in your heads when you think of shounen protagonists the fight for Justice and saving the world? Honest question.
I was just reading through some old threads because I have nothing better to do with my time atm and noticed this question. For me there are a couple. Have you seen Druaga no Tou: the Aegis of Uruk? The main character of this even though it is very funny has the hero complex and is even called out on it many times through out the series. For instance when he says he's going to defeat Duraga in one of the episodes someone says to him "why? did duraga do something to you or hurt you in some way?" he couldn't find an answer through out the entire series.

In a more serious anime, Gundam Seed. Why did Kira fight so hard? In the beginning he just wanted to protect his friends but why did he keep fighting and trying to save everything? while I liked the show It seemed like there were many ways around what happened instead of the protagonist saving the world and sticking to his sense of justice.
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Old 2014-03-19, 01:12   Link #2195
Chaos2Frozen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoloPanda View Post
I was just reading through some old threads because I have nothing better to do with my time atm and noticed this question. For me there are a couple. Have you seen Druaga no Tou: the Aegis of Uruk? The main character of this even though it is very funny has the hero complex and is even called out on it many times through out the series. For instance when he says he's going to defeat Duraga in one of the episodes someone says to him "why? did duraga do something to you or hurt you in some way?" he couldn't find an answer through out the entire series.
I have in fact heard of Druaga, but never saw it though... It was during my early Anime phase where I don't know what I want.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoloPanda View Post
In a more serious anime, Gundam Seed. Why did Kira fight so hard? In the beginning he just wanted to protect his friends but why did he keep fighting and trying to save everything? while I liked the show It seemed like there were many ways around what happened instead of the protagonist saving the world and sticking to his sense of justice.
Kira? Hmmm, it was a while ago but I can't seem to remember Kira being that... Well in the first season at least, after that there's a reason he came to be called Jesus Yamato...

Personally the only one I keep thinking of when I ask myself that question is Shirou, because my first impression of him was so bad from the original F/SN Anime...
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Old 2014-03-19, 05:00   Link #2196
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Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
I have in fact heard of Druaga, but never saw it though... It was during my early Anime phase where I don't know what I want.



Kira? Hmmm, it was a while ago but I can't seem to remember Kira being that... Well in the first season at least, after that there's a reason he came to be called Jesus Yamato...

Personally the only one I keep thinking of when I ask myself that question is Shirou, because my first impression of him was so bad from the original F/SN Anime...
Shirou actually turned me off from FSN for a long time cause I just couldn't identify with his stepping stone attitude. The way I saw it that just enables people to look down on others making other people suffer due to his inaction, but that's just me. For FSN I only watch prisma illya for lols and such.... not cause I'm a lolicon or anything...

I'm looking forward to see Touma's growth in the coming novels to see what kind of hero he becomes and growth he goes through. He was described as a little girl who had become ancient but still had a young body (reminds me of Evangeline from Negima) so I'm hoping for some old man talk. Perhaps something like a sage. But we will see.
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Old 2014-03-19, 06:29   Link #2197
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I'm looking forward to see Touma's growth in the coming novels to see what kind of hero he becomes and growth he goes through. He was described as a little girl who had become ancient but still had a young body (reminds me of Evangeline from Negima) so I'm hoping for some old man talk. Perhaps something like a sage. But we will see.
i dont think that this could happen, i wrote it before but i dubt that touma 'aged' in the other worlds,

i think his memorys are more like a dream, you know stuff happened but not exactly what happened, afterall this would be the only way to survive such a trauma and i highly doubt that he could ever return to his old life if he really aged and growed into such a 'old-man mentallity'....

it wouldnt fit into the setting of toaru...
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Old 2014-03-19, 21:18   Link #2198
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I wish Touma would become a terrorist or some sort of antagonist and will chose to save and stayed with Othinus. After all she has been with him for the longest period of time. And even though she only wanted his demise at the very least she stayed with him till the very end of every version and watch him. And even Kamijou knows her best the same also can be implied that she knows him best too.
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Old 2014-03-19, 22:55   Link #2199
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Well Othinus's whole goal was to find somebody that understood her, So all her actions up to now may have been selfish but besides that, As said in the 9th Volume

|“Was there really someone who would conveniently understand me in my original world?”

She had no answer to that question.|

It took her a some time but she final found somebody to understand her, but in (imo) order for somebody to understand her they must know how she feels so we can conclude that Touma will stay with her for awhile. (Well that's my best answer to give atm)
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Old 2014-03-19, 23:04   Link #2200
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This thread is being locked for moderation review due to massive amount of untagged LN events and spoilers being dropped here.
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