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Old 2010-12-07, 20:54   Link #841
Salt
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashaman View Post
Its hard to plan for something you know almost nothing about, when you only have one ability. If you think about it, punching really is his only option 90% of the time. Complex plans don't work that well when you have such simple abilities.

Take his fight with Accel, one of the few when he had any for knowledge of abilites. It still doesn't change what he can or cannot do. So in this case, its not that he rushes in blindly, but can't really plan.
We can add recklessness to the list. :P

His combat is the other thing, he has basically 2 moves.
Imagine Breaker to negate the opponent's attack, then punch him/her when he/she is stunned trying to figure out what happened.
That about sums up 90% of his fights.

By the nth time you are watching him fight...

Quote:
Yeah, you're right in many ways, he does fit the streotype. But in many ways, he doesn't give the feel of the stereotype. Its very hard to explain why not, so I hope someone else can give it a go.

Still, I can very much see where you are coming from.

You prefer the dark hero type (was it you who mentioned Lulu as a fav?) and you simply wont find that in Touma.

Accel, on the other hand? Yeah, you're going to enjoy the latter half of the seaon.
Lulu was a nice change of pace.
Rather than a simplistic universal-constant-like "For justice!!" as a motive, we have more mutable motivations.
When his beliefs clash with reality, the consequences of his actions forces a re-evaluation of his outlook and what he is doing.

In short I just want more variety I suppose.
After Tenchi, Naruto, fate/stay guy, Touma ... I like to see something new.

As for Accel, part of me wish he got his own spin off like biri-biri, then I can enjoy the setting while having an engaging lead. LOL

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
Have you watch 'Fairy Tails' recently?

Once you compare Natsu and Touma it becomes very obvious who's a hot head.

More often than not Touma's a lazy person.
He is still fairly impulsive and reckless from my PoV, and just jumps head first into a fight relying on "luck" to some extend to get through.

Quote:
Arrogant - boasting to Mikoto about his school winning
Whiny - Complains about his misfortune all the time
Selfish - Keeping Index in the dark about his memory lost
Perverted - (Speaks for itself)
Those don't come across as undesirable in his case.
It's a matter of magnitude too.

Everyone boasts to their friends once in a while, if you want prideful there is Lelouch. That guy has quite the ego, but everyone still loves him though.
Again everyone complains, for whiny I suppose the gold standard is Shinji Ikari.
Saving Index the grief isn't completely, nor particularly, selfish from my point of view.
Being a pervert is rarely a character flaw in an anime. :P His perversion is not very high by anime standards. For most part, I consider he level as being that of a normal heterosexual male.

Quote:
I think what you are looking for is an anti-hero, Touma is by no means a perfect character if you look at his daily routine but if that's not enough for you then obviously you're into the dark and heavy chocolates.
I want some variety I think.
For instance in slice of life anime, I find Kyon of Haruhi fairly entertaining.

Quote:
Like I've been saying, Touma was never about justice.

He's about saving lives.
He does what he feels is right. Justice in a sense.

Quote:
Quotes from none other than Touma
Ever idealistic, positive, never-say-die attitude.

Pretty much every shounen lead ever. ><
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Old 2010-12-07, 20:59   Link #842
Miraluka
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Salt View Post
Ever idealistic, positive, never-say-die attitude.

Pretty much every shounen lead ever. ><
Don't forget his emo side when Index was about to be memory whiped.
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Old 2010-12-07, 21:12   Link #843
Salt
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Originally Posted by Wilfriback View Post
Don't forget his emo side when Index was about to be memory whiped.
He wasn't THAT emo.

For most part, he was still pretty much "I can do it!!!" running around trying to find a cure.
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Old 2010-12-07, 21:32   Link #844
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Quote:
His combat is the other thing, he has basically 2 moves.
Imagine Breaker to negate the opponent's attack, then punch him/her when he/she is stunned trying to figure out what happened.
That about sums up 90% of his fights.

By the nth time you are watching him fight...
Well what can he do. He represents the average man doing amazing things. He's not like most shounen heroes who are very powerful.

Quote:
Lulu was a nice change of pace.
Rather than a simplistic universal-constant-like "For justice!!" as a motive, we have more mutable motivations.
When his beliefs clash with reality, the consequences of his actions forces a re-evaluation of his outlook and what he is doing.
He was fighting in his view of justice. Britannia was being a tyrant and he's " like oh hell nah."

Quote:
In short I just want more variety I suppose.
After Tenchi, Naruto, fate/stay guy, Touma ... I like to see something new.
I consider it a sin to compare touma to naruto. Toumas like ryner from legend of the legendary heroes where its a pain to do it but he'll do it anyway. He doesn't give cliche quotes. C'mon "people die when they are killed", no shit. Look at toumas quotes that i posted in the last page.

Quote:
As for Accel, part of me wish he got his own spin off like biri-biri, then I can enjoy the setting while having an engaging lead. LOL
He has 2 novels for him. 3 if you count the SS and his side of the story in russia.



Quote:
He is still fairly impulsive and reckless from my PoV, and just jumps head first into a fight relying on "luck" to some extend to get through.
The quotes will explain.


Quote:
Being a pervert is rarely a character flaw in an anime. :P His perversion is not very high by anime standards. For most part, I consider he level as being that of a normal heterosexual male.
TRU


Quote:
I want some variety I think.
For instance in slice of life anime, I find Kyon of Haruhi fairly entertaining.
they have the same attitude and what did kyon even do?

Quote:
Ever idealistic, positive, never-say-die attitude.
I know you want dark side like ichigo. All i got to say is remember ep 9 of index.
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Old 2010-12-07, 21:47   Link #845
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Salt View Post
He is still fairly impulsive and reckless from my PoV, and just jumps head first into a fight relying on "luck" to some extend to get through.
Why would a guy who's always unlucky rely on 'luck'?

It's easy to group him with the rest of the shounen heroes in a fight- I mean, how many realistic ways are there to behave in a fight?

But it's his everyday life that sets him apart because of how... Normal it seems, minus the bad luck of course.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Salt View Post
Those don't come across as undesirable in his case.
It's a matter of magnitude too.

Everyone boasts to their friends once in a while, if you want prideful there is Lelouch. That guy has quite the ego, but everyone still loves him though.
Again everyone complains, for whiny I suppose the gold standard is Shinji Ikari.
Saving Index the grief isn't completely, nor particularly, selfish from my point of view.
Being a pervert is rarely a character flaw in an anime. :P His perversion is not very high by anime standards. For most part, I consider he level as being that of a normal heterosexual male.
So in other words you accept that he has these flawed charcteristics, but still insist that he is a 'perfect moral' character because they're not bad enough?

The way I see it you just want someone to do the wrong thing, am I right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Salt View Post
I want some variety I think.
For instance in slice of life anime, I find Kyon of Haruhi fairly entertaining.
That's odd, I don't recall Kyon making bad moral decisions either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Salt View Post
He does what he feels is right. Justice in a sense.
That's a bad definition- Who does things because they feel that is wrong?
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Old 2010-12-07, 22:31   Link #846
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About Touma and 'justice', Aiwass mentioned (in Vol19) that all Touma does is what he feels is right, screw what other people think. It just happens most people (in-universe) agree with his POV and then selfishly label his actions as 'righteous', disregarding what he himself thinks about it.

Basically, he feels he's fine as long as he can save anyone he is capable of saving.
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Old 2010-12-07, 22:41   Link #847
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Hmmmm... It seems to me that I like the fact that he's a 'moral' character, because we don't see them enough in real life.

But anyways- Touma if you think about it, doesn't have so much of a strong moral code- if you remember his fight against Vento he asked a little child, Last Order, to pick a lock. Yes, it was to save his life, but that is something that most Shounen Hero's would absolutely balk at.

Also, if you take a look at him; he's fought a someone completely on his own only a very, very few times. Sometimes the group thing isn't really noticeable. Vento was mostly defeated by Hyouka in angel mode. Terra was weakened by a Tank division and finished off by Accelerator. Oriana Thompson was brought down by the combined efforts of Stiyl and Touma; the same for Tatemiya Saiji. Fiamma was defeated by the very world he was trying to save when people banded together, and began putting a stop to him.

Really, how many shounen heroes do you know would do that? Many of the fights are about teamwork, and little coincidences piling up to make the downfall of someone.

Accelerator was practically the only one he ever fought against by himself from beginning to end (and that was after nearly being killed by Mikoto)
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Old 2010-12-07, 22:48   Link #848
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^ Technically, Terra came out unharmed by a bombardment and then retreated before Accel showed up at the Papal palace... and was done in by Acqua at the Vatican.

Still, Itsuwa was there helping Touma figuring out Terra's techniques before she got KOed, so the point that Touma has help beating opponents still stands. Even if Touma's the one that ends up dealing the final blow most of the time.
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Old 2010-12-07, 23:09   Link #849
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Its not like Touma is the icon of justice, just happens he does what people thinks is the more clos to their concept of justice.
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Old 2010-12-08, 00:45   Link #850
Salt
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Originally Posted by I_am_Kami View Post
To SALT
Well what can he do. He represents the average man doing amazing things. He's not like most shounen heroes who are very powerful.
I wouldn't call him average. >.>

Imagine Breaker is in some aspects pretty damn overpowered.

Quote:
He was fighting in his view of justice. Britannia was being a tyrant and he's " like oh hell nah."
Lulu's goal was to create a world where Nunnally would be safe and happy, and was partially fuelled by revenge.
A goal he later realise over the course of series that if he achieves makes him no different from his father.

Quote:
I consider it a sin to compare touma to naruto. Toumas like ryner from legend of the legendary heroes where its a pain to do it but he'll do it anyway. He doesn't give cliche quotes. C'mon "people die when they are killed", no shit. Look at toumas quotes that i posted in the last page.
Just my general impression based on what I have seen.

The same never-say-die, we-can-win attitude. Too close for comfort.

Quote:
they have the same attitude and what did kyon even do?
You misread the context.

I was stating I wanted some variation in anime leads.
The cynical, sarcastic, cautious Kyon was fairly refreshing a character for a slice of life anime, which is (in my experience) populated mostly with helpless nice guys.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
Why would a guy who's always unlucky rely on 'luck'?
The funny thing about the guy's luck.

He seems to be unlucky when it comes to minor things, but some how survives the entire storyline half the time being in way over his head.

Little to no analysis of the situation, no plan nothing before attacking, but some how always luck out by coming out with a "clutch" move to get out of things alive.

Quote:
So in other words you accept that he has these flawed charcteristics, but still insist that he is a 'perfect moral' character because they're not bad enough?

The way I see it you just want someone to do the wrong thing, am I right?
Your examples were terrible, no offence.
Those things he did are what most normal people do - and are for most part minor and inconsequential. You can't really consider those behaviours a sign of significant character flaws.

Lulu's pride on the other hand is fairly undesirable and to some extend a weakness, it has gotten in his way more than once.

Quote:
That's odd, I don't recall Kyon making bad moral decisions either.
See above.

It was just an example of "originality" rather than using the same archetypes again and again.

Granted reuse is inevitable, the impulsive, "I believe in myself so things will work out" hero is way overused - at least in the anime I watch.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilfriback View Post
Its not like Touma is the icon of justice, just happens he does what people thinks is the more clos to their concept of justice.
No disagreement here.

What is considered Justice is subjective.
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Old 2010-12-08, 02:43   Link #851
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Originally Posted by Salt View Post
Little to no analysis of the situation, no plan nothing before attacking, but some how always luck out by coming out with a "clutch" move to get out of things alive.
Your original statement that he 'acts without thinking' is faulted.

Touma had plenty of analysis how else would he have figured out Index's memory lost was a scam. How else would he have figured out The solution to ending the experiment that Mikoto could do?

Your arguement that he won only by luck would only work if Touma had won his fight only through brute force, but that's not possible because Touma doesn't have brute force. More often than not he usually figures out a loop hole in the enemy's attack.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Salt View Post
Your examples were terrible, no offence.
Those things he did are what most normal people do - and are for most part minor and inconsequential. You can't really consider those behaviours a sign of significant character flaws.

Lulu's pride on the other hand is fairly undesirable and to some extend a weakness, it has gotten in his way more than once.
So you accept that he has flaws, even if they are minor, then why would you say that he is 'morally perfect'? He makes good moral decision, but he is by no means a 'morally perfect' character nor those he forces people to act morally... Just to have the decency to respect lives.

It's not even a standard to meet, it's a very basic requirement as a person.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Salt View Post
Granted reuse is inevitable, the impulsive, "I believe in myself so things will work out" hero is way overused - at least in the anime I watch.
Assuming you're refering to Touma using this statement, I would again like to point out that this is incorrect when applied to Touma.

More often than not Touma lament about his lack of 'power', or how 'useless' his power is when it matters the most. Very much different than "I believe in myself"

Last edited by Chaos2Frozen; 2010-12-08 at 02:54.
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Old 2010-12-08, 03:12   Link #852
Salt
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Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
Your original statement that he 'acts without thinking' is faulted.

Touma had plenty of analysis how else would he have figured out Index's memory lost was a scam. How else would he have figured out The solution to ending the experiment that Mikoto could do?

Your arguement that he won only by luck would only work if Touma had won his fight only through brute force, but that's not possible because Touma doesn't have brute force. More often than not he usually figures out a loop hole in the enemy's attack.
I will give you those.

I suppose my "reckless"/"impulsive" view of him comes of him entering fights that for most part weigh heavily against him with no plan, effectively hoping his Imagine Breaker will save him.

To use your example, he could easily have been kill by Accel.

Quote:
So you accept that he has flaws, even if they are minor, then why would you say that he is 'morally perfect'? He makes good moral decision, but he is by no means a 'morally perfect' character nor those he forces people to act morally... Just to have the decency to respect lives.
When I said "character flaw" I meant significant ones.

Common fragilities that everyone processes don't count.

It's like saying someone is a glutton, you normally only say that if the person is really really greedy when it comes to food.
A normal person waffing down food, you normally will not bat an eyelid.

Quote:
It's not even a standard to meet, it's a very basic requirement as a person.
Ah, real people are very flawed creatures.
Having flaws in your fiction characters make them all the more believable, and easier to relate to.

Look at how popular Evagelion is.

Not to mention it adds the variety that I have been complaining has been lacking in shounen anime leads.

Quote:
Assuming you're refering to Touma using this statement, I would again like to point out that this is incorrect when applied to Touma.

More often than not Touma lament about his lack of 'power', or how 'useless' his power is when it matters the most. Very much different than "I believe in myself"
OK, "believe in myself" is a specify one that doesn't apply to him.
But the general "keep on going; unsupported optimistic view" that plague characters of his archetype is still there.

Nothing wrong with that. Just pretty tired of it.

From my experience, his complaints of "uselessness" is in his day to day life. He never complains when it comes to combat situations, that his powers are useless.

That is Accel's line.
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Old 2010-12-08, 03:33   Link #853
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Originally Posted by Salt View Post
I will give you those.

I suppose my "reckless"/"impulsive" view of him comes of him entering fights that for most part weigh heavily against him with no plan, effectively hoping his Imagine Breaker will save him.

To use your example, he could easily have been kill by Accel.
I accept, the same thing could have happen with the Alchemist as well though surely at that time you have to agree that given their situation- there was no other option than to fight, prepared or not.

But to say it happens all the time? That's abit of a stretch.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Salt View Post
Ah, real people are very flawed creatures.
Having flaws in your fiction characters make them all the more believable, and easier to relate to.

Look at how popular Evagelion is.

Not to mention it adds the variety that I have been complaining has been lacking in shounen anime leads.
I agree. Humans are flawed That said, how many human beings can actually accept other people screw with lives for pointless reasons?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Salt View Post
OK, "believe in myself" is a specify one that doesn't apply to him.
But the general "keep on going; unsupported optimistic view" that plague characters of his archetype is still there.

Nothing wrong with that. Just pretty tired of it.
I agree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Salt View Post
From my experience, his complaints of "uselessness" is in his day to day life. He never complains when it comes to combat situations, that his powers are useless.

That is Accel's line.
Oh it happens quite often.

Like for example, In the first arc, Touma hated that his powers could do nothing for Index (Before he figured out the solution) Then there are several times where his power does more harm than good.

Actually alot of characters also had this complex- Mikoto as well, not matter how powerful she is, she still couldn't save her sisters from the experiments.
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Old 2010-12-08, 08:36   Link #854
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Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
I accept, the same thing could have happen with the Alchemist as well though surely at that time you have to agree that given their situation- there was no other option than to fight, prepared or not.

But to say it happens all the time? That's abit of a stretch.
It is kind of always like that with him.

Majority of the time he is way out of his depth, and yet once again his immovable conviction pushes him forward - again like every shounen anime lead ever. ><

Quote:
I agree. Humans are flawed That said, how many human beings can actually accept other people screw with lives for pointless reasons?
???

True, I said a lead character should have a flaw to 2 to make things less boring, but overall his positive attributes need to compensate for those weaknesses so we don't end up hating him.

He is still the protagonist, he still has the meta-job of holding the audience to do.

Quote:
Like for example, In the first arc, Touma hated that his powers could do nothing for Index (Before he figured out the solution) Then there are several times where his power does more harm than good.
Still there he was trying, with no "downtime".

Never crippling like in the case of Mitoko, never forcing a re-evaluation of his/her motives.

This is probably the other thing that eeks me, the nigh immutable, fairly simplistic motivations and convictions of such characters.

I was pretty OK with it in the past, but with overexposure it kind of has come to annoy me. ><
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Old 2010-12-08, 15:44   Link #855
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It is kind of always like that with him.

Majority of the time he is way out of his depth, and yet once again his immovable conviction pushes him forward - again like every shounen anime lead ever. ><


???

True, I said a lead character should have a flaw to 2 to make things less boring, but overall his positive attributes need to compensate for those weaknesses so we don't end up hating him.

He is still the protagonist, he still has the meta-job of holding the audience to do.


Still there he was trying, with no "downtime".

Never crippling like in the case of Mitoko, never forcing a re-evaluation of his/her motives.

This is probably the other thing that eeks me, the nigh immutable, fairly simplistic motivations and convictions of such characters.

I was pretty OK with it in the past, but with overexposure it kind of has come to annoy me. ><
i so want to tell you his dark side. At least in our speculations.
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Old 2010-12-09, 17:58   Link #856
Salt
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i so want to tell you his dark side. At least in our speculations.
I'm not looking for "darkness" in particular, in fact avoid most hardcore "dark anime".
Content too depressing. I have enough of that shit in RL.


I just want more "interesting" characters.

Touma (from the anime anyway) apart from his archetype being used way too often, also seem to lack "depth".

Just yesterday I watch "Unlimited Blade Works".

I have watch the Fate/Stay TV series before, but never quite "got it".
The movie on the hand, which turned out (IMHO) to have better story telling despite being so compressed, was pretty awesome.

Shirou is a lot like Touma and pretty much fits the archetype - at least on the superficial level.
But there is a reason he is the way he is, and is not just some "magically good heroic guy".

Spoiler for Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works:


Accel who only has a faction of Touma screen-time is actually better fleshed out than him IMO.

He also coming across as a more interesting (& novel) character, and did a better job of hooking me along than our lead - he is effectively a "sinner", one who is desperately looking for redemption, to constraint the damage he had done and cannot undo.
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Old 2010-12-09, 18:12   Link #857
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I'm not looking for "darkness" in particular, in fact avoid most hardcore "dark anime".
Content too depressing. I have enough of that shit in RL.
No,no,no. Not dark as in dark story plot. I mean like ichigo vasto lorde dark.
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Old 2010-12-09, 20:17   Link #858
outerelf
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Salt View Post

Accel who only has a faction of Touma screen-time is actually better fleshed out than him IMO.

He also coming across as a more interesting (& novel) character, and did a better job of hooking me along than our lead - he is effectively a "sinner", one who is desperately looking for redemption, to constraint the damage he had done and cannot undo.
The problem with Accel is that he is extremely hard to create numerous situations in which he can participate in with his personality. If you notice, the only way to involve him with someone is to A. Kidnap LO and B. Piss him off.

And even then, he has to gain some part of the 'Shounen Hero' syndrome in order to take his place as a main character.

The main reason why people don't see this, is because he was a villain originally. Every time we're tempted to think that he might be good, he himself reminds us of the fact that he's killed over 10000 people. If we'd first met Touma while he was doing something villianous, we'd be less tempted to think of the Shounen Hero syndrome.

But really, can you think of a way to involve Accel without threatening LO? That plot line gets really, really old after awhile. And it really limits the other characters that you can introduce, and all of those characters must either be loved or hated by LO in order for him to take interest in them.

As the author himself stated; a character that jumps in without thinking helps move the plot along. It makes it a lot harder to get someone who specializes in different areas to help beyond those areas.

And there is no way this author would be satisfied with just writing within a set parameter.
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Old 2010-12-09, 20:33   Link #859
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well you can see how accelerator is pissed to touma for knowing he helps a lot of ppl and not helping LO, for touma you can see saving his girl is more important than heping someone else's, and thats a human trait and not a shonen-hero-cliché, where it usually leads for the main to help ppl stoping the process of saving the girl but gaining an ally/item/ability for the help.

and yeah to this point maybe the less developed character is touma, but thats all part of the story to keep his past and power a mystery and the fact he probably had been acting most of the series.
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Old 2010-12-10, 00:40   Link #860
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Originally Posted by outerelf View Post
But really, can you think of a way to involve Accel without threatening LO? That plot line gets really, really old after awhile. And it really limits the other characters that you can introduce, and all of those characters must either be loved or hated by LO in order for him to take interest in them.

As the author himself stated; a character that jumps in without thinking helps move the plot along. It makes it a lot harder to get someone who specializes in different areas to help beyond those areas.

And there is no way this author would be satisfied with just writing within a set parameter.

Threatening Last Order is the easiest way but there are others just like how initially he was working with GROUP, he might not be willing but as part of the deal he has to get involve with some dirty business.

I find that It's high time that Accelerator move away from his over-dependency of Last Order to do good things.
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