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Old 2010-12-10, 01:24   Link #861
Kenta Maebara
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Originally Posted by Salt View Post
Accel who only has a faction of Touma screen-time is actually better fleshed out than him IMO.

He also coming across as a more interesting (& novel) character, and did a better job of hooking me along than our lead - he is effectively a "sinner", one who is desperately looking for redemption, to constraint the damage he had done and cannot undo.
I spite of what you said, Accelerator idolizes Touma - strives to become someone who can and will protect people like him. Why would the author purposely have Accelerator, the "sinner", seeking redemption for himself, look up to Touma, a "typical shounen lead"?

May I remind you that both Touma & Accelerator are foils, therefore, similar to each other in some respects - both work towards a world shaped by their own ideals, not caring what anyone else says or thinks. This is an aspect absent from most shounen characters, since the majority fights for their friends/family (Ichigo), for someone they love (Lelouch), becaused they're forced too (Shinji Ikari), or to simply "save the world" (every DBZ guys); likewise, Touma & Accelerator don't need a "reason" to fight or protect - they do so just because they simply can.
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Old 2010-12-10, 21:47   Link #862
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Originally Posted by Kenta Maebara View Post
I spite of what you said, Accelerator idolizes Touma - strives to become someone who can and will protect people like him. Why would the author purposely have Accelerator, the "sinner", seeking redemption for himself, look up to Touma, a "typical shounen lead"?

May I remind you that both Touma & Accelerator are foils, therefore, similar to each other in some respects - both work towards a world shaped by their own ideals, not caring what anyone else says or thinks. This is an aspect absent from most shounen characters, since the majority fights for their friends/family (Ichigo), for someone they love (Lelouch), becaused they're forced too (Shinji Ikari), or to simply "save the world" (every DBZ guys); likewise, Touma & Accelerator don't need a "reason" to fight or protect - they do so just because they simply can.
Though i wish they ended battles more epically than his one hit K.O. Gotta wait and see how he comes back.


Pain:You mean "if" he comes back.
I_am_Kami:... "if", "if" is good.
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Old 2010-12-11, 00:59   Link #863
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But- But-

HIS ONE HIT KO IS THE BEST. *Bawls head off*

I'm so sick and tired of fights where the hero is beaten into a pulp only to magically draw out more power from nowhere! *coughBleachcough* It's getting annoying! Let Touma have his one-hit KO's. Please. As well as Accel.
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Old 2010-12-11, 02:22   Link #864
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Originally Posted by outerelf View Post
But- But-

HIS ONE HIT KO IS THE BEST. *Bawls head off*

I'm so sick and tired of fights where the hero is beaten into a pulp only to magically draw out more power from nowhere! *coughBleachcough* It's getting annoying! Let Touma have his one-hit KO's. Please. As well as Accel.

Villains from anime/manga in general are less enduring then their heroic counterparts.

Where as Villains from games can take an incredible amount of punishment

My point is, if there's one fault I dislike about Touma is his 1v1 fights because of how he could withstand at that but took out the enemy with the one-two punch. Unless of course it's revealed later that Heaven Canceller implanted some good old Dark Legacy into his body...
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Old 2010-12-11, 04:58   Link #865
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touma has is own version of dark legacy inside of him. Well in his 1 vs 1 matches. He can concentrate on one opponent. If I'm going to complain. I want him to fight more than just one strong opponents. And not magically summoned beings that can be 1 hit disappear.
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Old 2010-12-11, 05:49   Link #866
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I guess it's because of... how do I say it...

So far enemies he fought probably have PhyDEF (Physical Defense) value at 0, this is covered by some sort of abilities (magic, esper ability, ETC) that prevent an enemy from dealing direct physical damage (Accelerator's reflect and magicians' generic defense spells etc) and Touma just happens to be able to render that useless in the face of a fist coming to the face.

Enemies that successfully beat him via physical means so far were Kanzaki, Motoharu and Acqua, only those three of what I can remember so far.

I bet everyone in the series will go down, save for Gabriel, when sniped (as an example) if they do not prepare countermeasures against it. Just an opinion though.

Some people I talked to, they think that with the advantage of IB being a way to bypass enemy defenses, he really should get extra physical training, at least be physically as strong as Motoharu and Hamadzura.
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Old 2010-12-11, 06:09   Link #867
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I think in physically strength terms. Touma is above Tsuchimikado and Shiage. The only thing those 2 above him is techniques. Shiage is specialize in range battles or even close quarter battles with guns. Tsuchimikado knew some moves. Being a spy for 2 organization and also a genius in omyouji arts. He knew how to fight. Touma only learn on how to fight when his fighting street fights. That's just your brawling techniques and his initial ability to negate and think of a way to overcome the enemy.

If he can at least some moves different than the usual. Learn martial arts would increase Touma's strength by a lot.

having a defense rate of zero is probably possible. The greatest example for here are Fiamma and Accelerator, both epitome for different sides. For their whole lifetime before they meet Touma they hadn't been hit yet. Even once.
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Old 2010-12-11, 06:39   Link #868
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Shiage maybe, but not Tsuchimikado. I think he trumps Touma in both pure strength and technique.

I think formal training would help Touma, but only to cover his weakness to physical opponants.

Against a magicianl/Esper, I think the benefits of formal training would be negligable.
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Old 2010-12-11, 07:14   Link #869
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I think not in terms of pure brute strength. But in overall. I think just from the previews episode when Touma, Tsuchimikado and styl are running. Styl and Tsuchimikado didn't even break a sweat while running around in block to catch up to oriana but Touma is lacking in breath their even if he finds oriana first. Tsuchimikado had the edge in different aspects but still Touma isn't lacking in strength alone when comparing to him but in terms of knowledge of close quarter combat. Touma is almost zero to none.
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Old 2010-12-11, 12:29   Link #870
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Shiage maybe, but not Tsuchimikado. I think he trumps Touma in both pure strength and technique.
I agree.

Lets not forget Tsuchimikado is kind of a "trained professional" and has considerable amount of experience under his belt.
He is also as ripped as Rambo in case no one noticed - verse Touma average high schooler fitness. ><

Tsuchimikado is basically a professional "soldier" or more specially "Spec Ops" like the rest of Necessarius, but is currently stuck doing "in the shadows" work.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenta Maebara View Post
I spite of what you said, Accelerator idolizes Touma - strives to become someone who can and will protect people like him. Why would the author purposely have Accelerator, the "sinner", seeking redemption for himself, look up to Touma, a "typical shounen lead"?
Why not?
That's the way his character currently rolls. Although if he ends up a complete Touma clone I will be very disappointed.

Anyway, my main "beef" with Touma is with his "meta-job" as the series' lead.
I just don't find him engaging, and frankly is kind of boring.

I won't lie to ya, I'm current watching the series for Accel, along with Mitoko and the ever entertaining Kuroko.
They have become the leads for me. Leads with very limited airtime. ><

Quote:
May I remind you that both Touma & Accelerator are foils, therefore, similar to each other in some respects - both work towards a world shaped by their own ideals, not caring what anyone else says or thinks. This is an aspect absent from most shounen characters, since the majority fights for their friends/family (Ichigo), for someone they love (Lelouch), becaused they're forced too (Shinji Ikari), or to simply "save the world" (every DBZ guys); likewise, Touma & Accelerator don't need a "reason" to fight or protect - they do so just because they simply can.
Ya, I know Touma is foil for Accel for sure, Accel's character development progress by playing off Touma.

But lets not kid ourselves, they fight for a reason.

Accel fights to protect those he cares about - LO, the Misaka clones, Yomikawa and Yoshikawa.
That is his whole motivation for even bothering to work in GROUP.

Touma where do I start.
The guy, put it simply, fight for what he believes is right. Which is also what eeks me about him, because that's all he does. That's it, that's all to his character.

An eternal, never evolving "sufferer" of Chronic Hero Syndrome.
And I think this is also probably why I have trouble "connecting" with characters of his archetype. Sufferers of "Chronic Hero Syndrome" tend to be incredible idealistic.
I on the other hand after nearly 3 decades of "living" have aged into a cynical bastard, one who has come be believe "things are rarely that simple".

And one other thing, he (and Index too it appears) seem to have little to no character development through the series - probably a contributing factor to my boredom with them.
He basically appears to exist solely as a plot device, the "illusion breaker", to move the development of other characters along. It's ironic in a sense, that the "illusion breaker" can't break his own illusion to allow for character growth.
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Last edited by Salt; 2010-12-11 at 12:50.
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Old 2010-12-11, 12:55   Link #871
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Well, I suppose you don't like to see 'perfect' people, people with no apparent flaws, a 'Canon Sue' (since you used TV tropes, I'll use one back at you), but let's not kid ourselves, before we can judge Touma like this, we have to look at the two sides of Touma, the one before his memory loss, and the one after.

For the memory loss before, we can tell that he does not like to get into trouble, period. The moment he saw Index, he wanted to 'send her to a far, far away place'. Komoe said that he was a naughty boy, and he had no real motivation to help Index except that 'it's the right thing to do' after he knew of Index's plight. Knowing Touma before then, he would have gotten her safe somewhere else and could have continued life on his own in Academy City.

Now, the other side, after his memory loss. At this point, Touma had nothing, nothing at all. He had no idea who his family is, or what all the basic things. It's like he got reverted back to 0. Imagine if you're sitting on your couch one day and the next thing that happens is that you end up in the desert without warning, without your clothes, your belongings, your family, your friends, everything. You have to restart everything all over again. Right now, besides acting on 'because it's the right thing to do', Touma has extra motivation in 'doing the right things and not regretting it later' AND 'I already lost my life once, I got this chance to set everything right'.

I'm okay with you for saying that Touma's not your favourite character because there's a lot of characters like him out there, and it gets a bit stale (besides, there are other characters out there that I find interesting as well, notably Aleister), but I don't agree with your point that he only serves as a 'plot device' because without him, you can just scrap the entire story already. It's his interactions with people that changes people, and most of these are seen from his view (except Accelerator). Also, if a person's beliefs are firm, there is no need to have character development set in that easily. We're not talking about some drama that sees people change personalities like 25 episodes in. I don't think people would change personalities that easily after 6 months, right, because the entire story of TAMnI is only set in 4 months. Sure, I like character development as much as the next guy, but when you firmly believe in yourself, there isn't much motivation to change your personality, right?

Last edited by Sleep_ping; 2010-12-11 at 13:05.
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Old 2010-12-11, 13:11   Link #872
Salt
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Originally Posted by Teh_Ping View Post
Well, I suppose you don't like to see 'perfect' people, people with no apparent flaws, a 'Canon Sue' (since you used TV tropes, I'll use one back at you), but let's not kid ourselves, before we can judge Touma like this, we have to look at the two sides of Touma, the one before his memory loss, and the one after.

For the memory loss before, we can tell that he does not like to get into trouble, period. The moment he saw Index, he wanted to 'send her to a far, far away place'. Komoe said that he was a naughty boy, and he had no real motivation to help Index except that 'it's the right thing to do' after he knew of Index's plight. Knowing Touma before then, he would have gotten her safe somewhere else and could have continued life on his own in Academy City.

Now, the other side, after his memory loss. At this point, Touma had nothing, nothing at all. He had no idea who his family is, or what all the basic things. It's like he got reverted back to 0. Imagine if you're sitting on your couch one day and the next thing that happens is that you end up in the desert without warning, without your clothes, your belongings, your family, your friends, everything. You have to restart everything all over again. Right now, besides acting on 'because it's the right thing to do', Touma has extra motivation in 'doing the right things and not regretting it later' AND 'I already lost my life once, I got this chance to set everything right'. I'm okay with you for saying that Touma's not your favourite character because there's a lot of characters like him out there, but I don't agree with your point that he only serves as a 'plot device' because basically, without him, you can just scrap the entire story already.
I used that TVTrope, because it's a nigh perfect description of him - was too lazy to paraphrase.

Perfect characters are OK, this one is a little over used.
But I think it's the blind idealism I have a problem with.

But anyway nice analysis of him, never saw him in that way.
Perhaps it's not very well communicated in the anime - as I saw no hints of it at all.
Adds significantly to his character for me.
If true. No offence, anything (scenes) to back it up, I need some convincing. ><

As for "plot device", IMO his character development effectively came to a stand still along with Index's after the starting arc.

Edit:
But on the other hand Touma didn't really change much between the memory loss event IMO. He is still Touma, his modus op did not change significantly.
That and it's a highly "artificial" event. It's like saying Ichigo got a personality change when he use his hollow, it's kind of true, but the original Ichigo is still here, the hollow can effectively be considered a separate character that so happens to be in the same body.***

***Never followed Bleach. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Edit2:
Also I think it's not really about being perfect or imperfect - although I do think having flaws add depth to the character.
All anime characters are perfect in some aspect, hey it's escapism.

But rather it's idealism vs cynicism.
Thanks again TVTropes. :P

PS:
You don't take referencing TVTropes as an insult do you? I refer them because it convenient.
To me it's a highly entertaining wiki of common used tropes in fiction - fairly comprehensive too I might add. XD
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Last edited by Salt; 2010-12-11 at 14:03.
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Old 2010-12-11, 14:19   Link #873
Ashaman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Salt View Post
I used that TVTrope, because it's a nigh perfect description of him - was too lazy to paraphrase.

Perfect characters are OK, this one is a little over used.
But I think it's the blind idealism I have a problem with.

But anyway nice analysis of him, never saw him in that way.
Perhaps it's not very well communicated in the anime - as I saw no hints of it at all.
Adds significantly to his character for me.
If true. No offence, anything (scenes) to back it up, I need some convincing. ><

As for "plot device", IMO his character development effectively came to a stand still along with Index's after the starting arc.

Edit:
But on the other hand Touma didn't really change much between the memory loss event IMO. He is still Touma, his modus op did not change significantly.
That and it's a highly "artificial" event. It's like saying Ichigo got a personality change when he use his hollow, it's kind of true, but the original Ichigo is still here, the hollow can effectively be considered a separate character that so happens to be in the same body.***

***Never followed Bleach. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Edit2:
Also I think it's not really about being perfect or imperfect - although I do think having flaws add depth to the character.
All anime characters are perfect in some aspect, hey it's escapism.

But rather it's idealism vs cynicism.
Thanks again TVTropes. :P

PS:
You don't take referencing TVTropes as an insult do you? I refer them because it convenient.
To me it's a highly entertaining wiki of common used tropes in fiction - fairly comprehensive too I might add. XD
A quote from Kami-yan himself: Gotta warn you though, from late in the game.

Spoiler for Kami-yan:


Still idealistic, but not blind idealism.
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Old 2010-12-11, 15:13   Link #874
Salt
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Originally Posted by Ashaman View Post
A quote from Kami-yan himself: Gotta warn you though, from late in the game.

Spoiler for Kami-yan:


Still idealistic, but not blind idealism.
Thanks, I "risked it" and read it.

At least now I know he isn't a complete dumbass - an attribute that a lot of shounen anime/manga leads seem to have.

Still me being a cynical bastard, probably way too cynical for my own good, kind can't help at times going "How the heck can you be so optimistic?!" when watching/reading about such characters.
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Old 2010-12-11, 15:44   Link #875
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Touma isn't optimistic, its the opposite Touma is pesimistic guy, an optimistic person will think everything will be right, Touma knows he will be pwned and someone will end injured and he usually is seen lamenting his fate (remember the "fukou da"?).
How can be Touma is positive guy if until the end he was the opposite?
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Old 2010-12-11, 15:57   Link #876
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Touma's an optimist because he hopes for a ending without tears.

He does realise that there will be pain, but that is why he tries to direct it all at himself.

Something that Misaka, and to a lesser extent, Index, is getting tired of really tired of.

However, he does also realise that he can't do it all by himself,and needs help.

I agree with Salt that Touma is a very idealistic guy, who does fit the Shounen mold in many ways. However, he comes off as slightly different to me. Maybe its just his always complaining attitude, maybe its his very narrow power, but I find him different.

I like Touma,and he has become one of my favourite characters, but that is because I like those that try for the optimistic solution and wont back down.

Salt mentioned earlier that he hasn't really changed. To me, this isn't a bad thing. As Teh Ping pointed out, Touma is confident in his beliefs, and wont back down from them, and so has no reason to change.

As Salt has freely admitted, he doesn't find Touma interesting because he prefers the more cynical types.

I'm more the opposite. I like the Optimistic types, which is why I like Touma.
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Old 2010-12-11, 16:31   Link #877
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Salt mentioned earlier that he hasn't really changed. To me, this isn't a bad thing. As Teh Ping pointed out, Touma is confident in his beliefs, and wont back down from them, and so has no reason to change.
And you know what the funny thing is? Aqua stated that Touma doesn't believe strongly enough on his ideals, which is why he screws up so often. So, what does that tell you?

If Acqua can be considered a Touma that is Haxx and grown up, and he says that Toumas beliefs are too weak... Just how strong do his beliefs have to be anyways?
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Old 2010-12-11, 17:48   Link #878
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Thanks, I "risked it" and read it.

At least now I know he isn't a complete dumbass - an attribute that a lot of shounen anime/manga leads seem to have.

Still me being a cynical bastard, probably way too cynical for my own good, kind can't help at times going "How the heck can you be so optimistic?!" when watching/reading about such characters.
I think you should either read the novels or look at the wikia. You also said accel is fighting to protect but look at.....damn can't spoil for you. Well touma fights to protect also.People he has protected.
Quote:
Index,
himegami,
misaka,
misaka clones,
kazakiri,
orsala,
kuroko,
Spoiler for If u dare..:
Bout it correct me if im wrong.


Though i think i remember you saying u saw railgun first(correct me if im wrong) and usually those people thought he was annoying which is funny cuz some people probably found mikoto annoying a tid bit in index always bothering him. Guess it takes time to warm up.
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Old 2010-12-11, 18:17   Link #879
Kenta Maebara
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Originally Posted by outerelf View Post
And you know what the funny thing is? Aqua stated that Touma doesn't believe strongly enough on his ideals, which is why he screws up so often. So, what does that tell you?

If Acqua can be considered a Touma that is Haxx and grown up, and he says that Toumas beliefs are too weak... Just how strong do his beliefs have to be anyways?
While Touma is unbelieveable idealistic and kind, he's still a kid. All kids, whether they are idealistic or cynical, are naive and still need some growing up to do. Touma ideals reflects his willingness to do what he wants to do, but is struggling to accept that himself, that's why his beliefs are "too weak" - he is like all of us; there's a likeable aspect in all of us that we don't accept as reality. Regardless, everyone sees and believes in that one part of us.

Spoiler for Quote from Touma:

Basically, Touma doesn't give himself enough credit. That's what I like about him. ^_^
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Old 2010-12-11, 20:52   Link #880
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashaman View Post
Touma's an optimist because he hopes for a ending without tears.

He does realise that there will be pain, but that is why he tries to direct it all at himself.

Something that Misaka, and to a lesser extent, Index, is getting tired of really tired of.

However, he does also realise that he can't do it all by himself,and needs help.

I agree with Salt that Touma is a very idealistic guy, who does fit the Shounen mold in many ways. However, he comes off as slightly different to me. Maybe its just his always complaining attitude, maybe its his very narrow power, but I find him different.
I think the main reason why Touma is different from other shonen leads is how normal he is. But for his right arm, he is an ordinary schoolkid. Anyone could be like him as long as they have the same idealistic outlook.
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