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Old 2011-07-05, 17:24   Link #1121
Ilidsor
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Well, IB is a power, right? He's supposed to have two powers inside him that are held back by IB. Second crushes Fiamma's Higher-than-God powers, third outdoes the second. I think, my mind is rusty.
I remember reading a theory that said it was just two, the Imagine Breaker, and whatever Fiamma saw. The Imagine Breaker that is his right hand is his power compressed. Originally when he was a kid his Imagine Breaker was spread throughout his body and onwards which is what caused misfortune to people around him, but Touma compressed it onto his right hand VIA pure willpower (or something). Then whatever Fiamma saw was a different power entirely. My guess is it is something like Aiwass sealed inside Touma (possibly by Aliester).

I don't remember where I got this from but I like it and it's what I'm sticking with.
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Old 2011-07-05, 17:31   Link #1122
Ashaman
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And my guess is its God inside of him. I shall be sticking to this gun for as long as possible.
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Old 2011-07-05, 17:40   Link #1123
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It can't be God
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Old 2011-07-05, 18:12   Link #1124
Mr.Kyon
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Originally Posted by Ashaman View Post
I think you are confusing depth and darkness here.

Which is deeper, someone choosing to kill in order to protect, or one who refuses to kill, instead forging a path that will save the one they want to protect without taking the lives of others?

In some ways, the latter is deeper than the former.

Sure, Accel is an all round deeper character than Touma, and I can understand your frustration with his Static status, but please don't call Touma shallow because he is at peace with his Demons.

There are other indications of depth than inner conflict.

I'm sorry if I misunderstood, but from some of the comments I get the feeling you want Touma to be darker, which is fine, but darker does not mean deeper, which is what you are actually arguing for.

Take Yuno - dark character, and for 55 chapters as deep as a puddle.
Although I personally would like to see a darker streak to Touma - though nothing drastic - I know that's not going to happen. Indeed just making him darker wouldn't give him much more depth.

MY STOOL IS DARK! ...And the Doctor says that's a bad thing... / Mr.Plinkett

Accelerator's depth doesn't come from being a dark character. It's how he evolved as a character, regardless of good and evil. Same with Hamazura. They evolved like real people. The problem with Touma is that he doesn't GROW as a PERSON with the many things he has confronted. He just...seems like a weird alien that doesn't abide by human psychology.
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Old 2011-07-05, 19:06   Link #1125
Miraluka
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Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
You don't get my point; if you want to change his character- make sure you're doing it for the better. We already know that if Touma gets knocked down on he will get back up so there's nothing new or surprising there. A threat to his personal life might be something new, but it doesn't change what he must do, or rather what he always do.
And are getting to where I'm trying to get to. Its not a matter to change for better I'm sure everyone agrees he is the "ideal hero". But a threat won't (probably) change what he (usually) does, but is because its personal that there will be a tension and cliffhanger feeling to us the readers.


Quote:
Lets say you make him angsty for a longer period of time, how is that not a deterioration?
IMO, that isn't a derailment when is totally known before hand that is just for moving the plot as a device.

Quote:
Lets say Touma does have this fall, and when he gets back up- what part of his character would change for the better?
Don't tell me if the next is something that even you are wanting is not a change for the better :

Spoiler:


About what is inside of Touma I already said is 2 things but the IB isn't one of them because it is outside of Touma, and as for the invisible something it can even be Lucifer struggling to get out of it and as for the a power greater that swallowed the former it can either be Touma's real power which is holding back the 'invisible something' or God himself which chose Touma as a proper vessel in order to hold back the 'invisible something' why? Because I remember the author sayin that those from the Heavens and thos from Hell can only interact in the Human World, and that would perfectly explain why it seems there is no God in the Heavens in the current story, though I choose the first option.
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Old 2011-07-05, 19:52   Link #1126
Chaos2Frozen
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Originally Posted by Ashaman View Post
I think you are confusing depth and darkness here.
Ah Ashaman, the man who always somehow finds the words that I want to say but can't

Indeed, I've seen many people assume depth needs darkness, and multi dimensional requires a character to do bad things.

It's the easiest way, but it's not the only way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashaman View Post
I'm sorry if I misunderstood, but from some of the comments I get the feeling you want Touma to be darker, which is fine, but darker does not mean deeper, which is what you are actually arguing for.

Take Yuno - dark character, and for 55 chapters as deep as a puddle.
I don't know, assuming you're referring to THAT Yuno...

"Puddles are deeper than Yuno..." LOl, kidding kidding, I've stopped reading that story ages ago.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.Kyon View Post
Accelerator's depth doesn't come from being a dark character. It's how he evolved as a character, regardless of good and evil. Same with Hamazura. They evolved like real people. The problem with Touma is that he doesn't GROW as a PERSON with the many things he has confronted. He just...seems like a weird alien that doesn't abide by human psychology.
That's because it's not as obvious as the other two, Kamachi doesn't spell out Touma's changes, but each and every incident changes him slightly, and it reach to the end where he can figure out Fiamma's location and plan base on his experiences from before.

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Originally Posted by Wilfriback View Post
And are getting to where I'm trying to get to. Its not a matter to change for better I'm sure everyone agrees he is the "ideal hero". But a threat won't (probably) change what he (usually) does, but is because its personal that there will be a tension and cliffhanger feeling to us the readers.

IMO, that isn't a derailment when is totally known before hand that is just for moving the plot as a device.
I'm arguing technicalities here, but that sounds more like character exploration; meaning you want to see him placed in different situations, or maybe to reveal more of his character by prodding him with a stick, rather than a 'development'- which implies change.

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Originally Posted by Wilfriback View Post
Don't tell me if the next is something that even you are wanting is not a change for the better :

Spoiler:
I was hoping to avoid bring that up
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Old 2011-07-05, 22:02   Link #1127
TkMacintosh
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Originally Posted by Ilidsor View Post
I remember reading a theory that said it was just two, the Imagine Breaker, and whatever Fiamma saw. The Imagine Breaker that is his right hand is his power compressed. Originally when he was a kid his Imagine Breaker was spread throughout his body and onwards which is what caused misfortune to people around him, but Touma compressed it onto his right hand VIA pure willpower (or something). Then whatever Fiamma saw was a different power entirely. My guess is it is something like Aiwass sealed inside Touma (possibly by Aliester).

I don't remember where I got this from but I like it and it's what I'm sticking with.
I like my theory that Touma has two powers in him...The power of God in his right hand...and the power of the devil in his left hand.

The power of God in his right hand keeps the power of the devil sealed back and in check....

When Touma loses Imagine Breaker, the Power of the Devil begins to flow and take over....Like the Dragon Head with Aureolus Izzard and the only thing that would make a man of God go pale with fear.
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Old 2011-07-05, 22:12   Link #1128
Mr.Kyon
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Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
That's because it's not as obvious as the other two, Kamachi doesn't spell out Touma's changes, but each and every incident changes him slightly, and it reach to the end where he can figure out Fiamma's location and plan base on his experiences from before.
His core character was not changed after all those incidents. He however gained experience.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TkMacintosh View Post
I like my theory that Touma has two powers in him...The power of God in his right hand...and the power of the devil in his left hand.

The power of God in his right hand keeps the power of the devil sealed back and in check....

When Touma loses Imagine Breaker, the Power of the Devil begins to flow and take over....Like the Dragon Head with Aureolus Izzard and the only thing that would make a man of God go pale with fear.
Though, may I ask, how does The Devil scare someone higher than God? Seriously, Fiamma was in a position above God, right? Then if Satan was inside Touma and IB was the seal, then why would Fiamma freak out? He could've crushed Satan! And what would Satan - a being of the Age of Osiris, we can assume - have anything that Aleister needs for his big plan?

We just don't know what Kamijou is.
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One Does Not Simply Make Touma A Good Protagonist ~ The Truth.

"Kyon has set his 'enemy that must be defeated' to be 'bad writing' of the world. The more there is, the stronger his Holy Crack " ~ Chaos2Frozen.
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Old 2011-07-05, 22:56   Link #1129
I_am_Kami
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Maybe in Thelema or some shit the story was told differently. Also, Fiamma wasn't so Godly. Higher than God is just a title but it's not like Fiamma did anything but spread his arms going "Hallelujah bitches"
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Old 2011-07-06, 00:36   Link #1130
Flere821
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This talk about Touma's character reminds me of the fanfic 'Of Science and Magic', where he

Spoiler for spoiler plot:


I'm of the opinion that simply put, Touma is a idiot, and just don't think about things like that. He charges into situations that if he didn't have IB he might have died, and he would have done so with, or without IB (see spoiler for reference).
Spoiler:


Good/Evil, being mistreated or not, that just doesn't matter to him; not when he can help others. One can almost argue his childhood experience had gave him a distortion (similar to Emiya Shirou of Fate/Stay Night) that made him willing to jump into danger for another person, even if he might not survive the fight - the alternative of walk away and pretend to see nothing would be too painful for him compared to any wound he would receive.

I'd say one way to develop Touma's character would be to give him someone he really cares about, more than just a damsel in distress he saves for the incident. Force the notion that he needs to be careful into him, and others will cry if he went missing/injured. In Vol16 he

Spoiler for sacrifice:


Getting past that for him would be interesting. Or, like someone else said, give him a girlfriend and see how the relationship changes him. It's sort of like what I'm planning for my fic.
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Old 2011-07-06, 09:17   Link #1131
Chaos2Frozen
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Originally Posted by Flere821 View Post
This talk about Touma's character reminds me of the fanfic 'Of Science and Magic', where he

Spoiler for spoiler plot:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flere821 View Post
Good/Evil, being mistreated or not, that just doesn't matter to him; not when he can help others. One can almost argue his childhood experience had gave him a distortion (similar to Emiya Shirou of Fate/Stay Night) that made him willing to jump into danger for another person, even if he might not survive the fight - the alternative of walk away and pretend to see nothing would be too painful for him compared to any wound he would receive.
That sounds like those people who thinks that Aliens built the Pyramid because they don't believe that the Egyptians could do it by themselves.

I think he's naturally a strong person, because after the memory wipe and he's back to default mode, his core character is the same.

So maybe his childhood did hurt him, but maybe it also made him a stronger person, determine to never let anyone suffer like he did.... Or then again, maybe this is just some form of self atonement for all the times he had hurt people.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Flere821 View Post
I'm of the opinion that simply put, Touma is a idiot, and just don't think about things like that. He charges into situations that if he didn't have IB he might have died, and he would have done so with, or without IB (see spoiler for reference).
Spoiler:
Even before that- during the SS story and the Plane Hijacking incident, in situations where Imagine Breaker is useless, he doesn't hesitate to get involved. However I disagree- I don't think 'charging in' is the best way to describe it. If Imagine Breaker is useless, he would opt for a more indirect approach- especially if the enemy has him out numbered and out gunned.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Flere821 View Post
I'd say one way to develop Touma's character would be to give him someone he really cares about, more than just a damsel in distress he saves for the incident. Force the notion that he needs to be careful into him, and others will cry if he went missing/injured. In Vol16 he

Spoiler for sacrifice:


Getting past that for him would be interesting. Or, like someone else said, give him a girlfriend and see how the relationship changes him. It's sort of like what I'm planning for my fic.
Maahhh~ We don't have to get to that point just yet; in the first place, Touma never involves other people if he can help it or unless they're already involved... The closest we have is him reaching out to Mikoto and Komoe over the phone for information.

So I think the first step should be him reaching out to others for help.... REAL help.
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Old 2011-07-06, 12:46   Link #1132
Miraluka
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So I think the first step should be him reaching out to others for help.... REAL help.
He did get help from the Amakusas various times.
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Old 2011-07-06, 14:32   Link #1133
chrono9472
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Originally Posted by I_am_Kami View Post
You forget that Touma "died". He has three different personalities now.
what do you mean three personalities? i know it was mentioned that he died again at the end of volume 22 but i don't remember anything about the personalities.
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Old 2011-07-06, 14:56   Link #1134
TkMacintosh
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what do you mean three personalities? i know it was mentioned that he died again at the end of volume 22 but i don't remember anything about the personalities.
I think its...

1) Personality before the mind wipe
2) Personality after the mind wipe and before the end of volume 22
3) Personality AFTER volume 22
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Old 2011-07-06, 15:03   Link #1135
chrono9472
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Originally Posted by TkMacintosh View Post
I think its...

1) Personality before the mind wipe
2) Personality after the mind wipe and before the end of volume 22
3) Personality AFTER volume 22
but we still haven't seen the changes touma has gone through in the gap between vol. 22 and nt 1, is it really alright to call it a third personality?
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Old 2011-07-06, 15:41   Link #1136
~Greed~
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Touma actually has 4 powers. The first is Imagine Breaker, the Second crushes Fiamma's Higher-than-God powers, third outdoes the second and the forth is precognition.
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Old 2011-07-06, 16:04   Link #1137
Mr.Kyon
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I figured out what Touma is sealing.

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One Does Not Simply Make Touma A Good Protagonist ~ The Truth.

"Kyon has set his 'enemy that must be defeated' to be 'bad writing' of the world. The more there is, the stronger his Holy Crack " ~ Chaos2Frozen.
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Old 2011-07-06, 16:35   Link #1138
Chaos2Frozen
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Originally Posted by Wilfriback View Post
He did get help from the Amakusas various times.
That was because they were already involved.
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Old 2011-07-06, 16:48   Link #1139
I_am_Kami
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I figured out what Touma is sealing.

Nah bro it's
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Old 2011-07-06, 19:24   Link #1140
Mr.Kyon
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Nvm, he's sealing this beast:

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One Does Not Simply Make Touma A Good Protagonist ~ The Truth.

"Kyon has set his 'enemy that must be defeated' to be 'bad writing' of the world. The more there is, the stronger his Holy Crack " ~ Chaos2Frozen.
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