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Old 2013-07-07, 05:46   Link #1481
dniv
Science is Romance
 
 
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Originally Posted by Ilidsor View Post
Discussion moved from another thread:






Well for starters I don't think any character who loses as often as Touma does can be called a Gary Stu. He's just too weak. Sure he beats a lot of very strong opponents but every now and then he just runs into one that's too much for him and gets his ass kicked.

As for the arguments he has with his villains; I don't really see how that makes him a Gary Stu. Sure it's kind of annoying in the anime (it works well in the original LNs) but it's not that big of a deal.

As for why he always wins the arguments well two things 1. Do you really expect people who are trying to kill lots of people (or whatever the villain of the week is doing at the time) to be on the logical side of things? And 2. It's not like the villains accept that he wins the argument and give up.

It's not like the villains accept that he wins the argument and give up.

In two weeks you will be proven wrong

But yeah I agree with Chaos and Ilidsor. Touma's preaching is my favorite part of Index. I will not accept any comment that tries to derail it when it's out of place derailing like in this case.
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Old 2013-07-07, 06:06   Link #1482
Chaos2Frozen
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It's situational- I wouldn't say it's the best thing because there are some that are good and some that are bad.

But what it does is that it sets him apart from all the other protagonists in Anime.
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Old 2013-07-07, 06:31   Link #1483
dniv
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Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
It's situational- I wouldn't say it's the best thing because there are some that are good and some that are bad.

But what it does is that it sets him apart from all the other protagonists in Anime.
Except from my favorite anime protagonist Sousuke Sagara. He has the same flair later on. He pretty much does the exact same thing (unbelievably). He also doesn't think he is in the right, exactly like Touma. It's Touma's self-doubt that makes him good. Touma doesn't think he's right. He thinks others are wrong. That's an important distinction to make. He even admits he's a sort of hypocrite. He's only perfect in his character where it matters. (In the LN's his preaching is always perfect). The anime might have a few quirks. I don't remember.
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Old 2013-07-07, 06:50   Link #1484
Chaos2Frozen
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What?! No, that's not it!

There are two kinds of 'right' here, one is what he thinks is right and the other is what people thinks is right. Kamijou doesn't care if the two rights are aligned, he just follows what he believes in. You can say he's stubborn or inflexible, but what it comes down to is that he has strong convictions in what he believes in and that's why he doesn't stumble often against his enemy's reasoning.

The part about the contradiction is how he is also forcing his ideas to others like his enemies, but just because it's a contradiction, just because he's not a perfect person, that doesn't mean he should abandon people who needs saving.
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Old 2013-07-07, 08:26   Link #1485
dniv
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Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
What?! No, that's not it!

There are two kinds of 'right' here, one is what he thinks is right and the other is what people thinks is right. Kamijou doesn't care if the two rights are aligned, he just follows what he believes in. You can say he's stubborn or inflexible, but what it comes down to is that he has strong convictions in what he believes in and that's why he doesn't stumble often against his enemy's reasoning.

The part about the contradiction is how he is also forcing his ideas to others like his enemies, but just because it's a contradiction, just because he's not a perfect person, that doesn't mean he should abandon people who needs saving.
I think you misunderstand me. After NT 7, I was saying Touma accepts that he isn't right. By hypocrite, I mean that Touma doesn't care if he has better circumstances than the villains, if he has a better life and if it isn't his place to say these things to the villains. But Touma goes along and still tells them what he believes is true. Even with contradictions, he forges ahead no matter what. There are many characters like this I've seen in anime. Sousuke and Touma are the best examples of this.

Sosuke just demonstrates this later. I think I was unclear above with what I meant. I know that Touma believes in his convictions. He will pursue them no matter what. I meant that Touma thinks that there are also other heroes who do things their way and that are probably also right. I'm saying that he's flexible but that he also believes in justice. This is unusual in a way. That's all I meant. I can't spoil anything FMP! related because it's from a very late point in it so... I can't explain what I mean about that here...

Oh and I just read the last line of your post. We seem to be in agreement about that. Touma does things even if he isn't perfect. That seems to be screaming out: I am not completely right in what I do, but I'll save people anyway, because even if I'm wrong, I'll trust in my convictions. This is a little hypocritical way in a fashion. I mean, he's saying that even though what he thinks might be wrong he'll follow what he believes.

Wait a minute...

Hypocritical is the opposite. lolllll......

I take it back... XD
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Old 2013-07-07, 17:28   Link #1486
Ilidsor
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Originally Posted by dniv View Post
It's not like the villains accept that he wins the argument and give up.

In two weeks you will be proven wrong .
Well that doesn't count, that was only admitted like 1/2 a second before he lost the fight anyways. Touma still had to beat him up :P
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Old 2013-07-07, 19:40   Link #1487
dniv
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Well that doesn't count, that was only admitted like 1/2 a second before he lost the fight anyways. Touma still had to beat him up :P
I know lol. I was joking. :P But yes, that is technically still true. But if you think about it that might be the reason
Spoiler for Railgun S episode 15, Index season 1:
because he had lost all of his resolve to continue participating. in the experiment. This is partially though because Accelerator is one of the more complex "villains" in this series after all.

Since I haven't really given Touma a good character analysis yet and he's my favorite character, I'm going to work on one now... It'll be done in a while
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Old 2013-07-07, 20:39   Link #1488
Chaos2Frozen
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Originally Posted by Ilidsor View Post
Well that doesn't count, that was only admitted like 1/2 a second before he lost the fight anyways. Touma still had to beat him up :P
Even if Kamijou did talked them out of it, he'll probably still punched them for the heck of it.
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Old 2013-07-14, 22:32   Link #1489
Narrator 1
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Personally, I'm kind of puzzled at the insistence that Touma's forcing his ideals on others... mainly the implication that this is a bad thing.

The one quote about not living life correctly that Touma detractors like to point to, for example. The recipient of that lecture was on a warpath that would have claimed more than two million lives if the good guys hadn't stopped her. Why? Because her brother died in a freak accident at an amusement park. It wasn't even as if her brother was murdered. And the reason she was there in the first place was because Touma stopped someone from destroying a loli's mind to power a naval-based superweapon that would have wiped Academy City off the map.

Those are the kinds of people Touma lectures and punches. People that twisted need all the forcible adjustments they can stomach and then some.
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Old 2013-07-14, 23:17   Link #1490
dniv
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Originally Posted by Narrator 1 View Post
Personally, I'm kind of puzzled at the insistence that Touma's forcing his ideals on others... mainly the implication that this is a bad thing.

The one quote about not living life correctly that Touma detractors like to point to, for example. The recipient of that lecture was on a warpath that would have claimed more than two million lives if the good guys hadn't stopped her. Why? Because her brother died in a freak accident at an amusement park. It wasn't even as if her brother was murdered. And the reason she was there in the first place was because Touma stopped someone from destroying a loli's mind to power a naval-based superweapon that would have wiped Academy City off the map.

Those are the kinds of people Touma lectures and punches. People that twisted need all the forcible adjustments they can stomach and then some.
Anyone who believes in Ghandi's teachings thinks that he is horrible or would be acting horribly. Peace is achieved through (words not violence)... he does both

Also, it is generally seen as true that morality should be decided "meaningfully" with words rather than violent actions and shows of power to force other people to agree with you.

Touma is a unique case because he is literally destroying illusions. But the ability Imagine Breaker assumes that reality exists (i.e. that it is meaningful for the world to be the way it is. i.e. that meaning must exist in how the world is which is why IB would kind of be at least partially magic and science. There is scientific and magical meaning in the world. They are both represented by IB (speculation obviously, but plausible).

Anyway, assuming what I said is true, we can then think that oh, magic and science are distortions of truth. So anyone wanting to try to change reality is bad because they are ignoring the real truth that exists.

For people though that don't being in meaning (Nihilists or Anti-Nihilists or whatever you want to call it), inherent meaning does not exist. Nihilists say IB is fake or be eternally happy to know it was actually true. Anti-Nihilists say IB is blasphemy because it is fake and prevents others from creating their own meaning to face meaninglessness. If you can't overcome reality, by having a delusion in which you live based on your own created meaning, then your entire core as a person is rejected. Delusions are obviously bad, but choice to have delusions isn't bad.

I think that's why it's a complicated issue. If you realize or believe Touma represents the idea that Nihilism is false, then he is fine. Otherwise, he is not fine and shouldn't use violence to force other people to agree with him... (well actually I like him in both cases though... ) lol...
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Old 2013-07-21, 19:45   Link #1491
hamazura
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i dont like him
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Old 2013-07-21, 22:07   Link #1492
Goldzero
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i dont like him
we know that already we have seen a few of your complaints in the railgun S episode threads already.
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Old 2013-07-21, 22:28   Link #1493
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i dont like him
-_- Did you seriously revive this thread just to say that?
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Old 2013-07-21, 22:42   Link #1494
Chaos2Frozen
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Every protagonists from hence forth shall be compared to Kamijou.

And I don't mean from just this series.
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Old 2013-07-22, 06:25   Link #1495
Doc Astaroth
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There was an interesting article recently in the German weekly newspaper "Die Zeit" about Heroes.

The author is the grandson of Christoph Probst, one of the members of White Rose, and he wrote, that nowadays "Heroes" are characterized as "Winners" or "Achivers" in accordance to the theory of Joseph Campbell's "The Hero with Thousand Faces", but in his opinion a hero is someone who gives everything he has for the sake of that he thinks is right without expecting anything in return.

And it is true, there are a lot of heroes especially in World War 2 who saved a lot of people, but they were punished for it instead of being rewarded.

So, what kind of hero is Touma? Is he the former one, because he always win, or actually the latter one, because his problems never stop and he never helped for profit?
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Old 2013-07-22, 06:35   Link #1496
Ilidsor
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So, what kind of hero is Touma? Is he the former one, because he always win, or actually the latter one, because his problems never stop and he never helped for profit?
Well Touma doesn't always win. He doesn't lose that often, but enough that you worry he might lose in this fight.

I think it's pretty obvious Kamachi wanted him to be the second one.
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Old 2013-07-22, 06:58   Link #1497
Rovert10
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It ain't hard to beat Touma at all really. Take a gun and point at head.
It's just magicians and espers are really arrogant and always want to state their dominance by how powerful their own unique skills are. Only to be shut down hard by IB.

But even then Touma still has to push himself to the limit to win.
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Old 2013-07-22, 07:03   Link #1498
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Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
Every protagonists from hence forth shall be compared to Kamijou.

And I don't mean from just this series.
And so, compare Touma with other protagonists in terms of the sense of justice.
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Old 2013-07-22, 07:26   Link #1499
Acer
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Originally Posted by Rovert10 View Post
It ain't hard to beat Touma at all really. Take a gun and point at head.
It's just magicians and espers are really arrogant and always want to state their dominance by how powerful their own unique skills are. Only to be shut down hard by IB.

But even then Touma still has to push himself to the limit to win.
but Touman has faced armed people as terrorists in vol 17 and others, I would not say it is a victory for sure using weapons against him, but is the best option, and I love those moments.

Last edited by Acer; 2013-07-22 at 08:16.
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Old 2013-07-22, 07:35   Link #1500
hamazura
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but Touman has faced armed people as terrorists in vol 17 and others, I would not say it is a victory for sure using weapons against him, but the best option, and I love those moments.
You mean vs curtana?
nah kamiyan is pretty useless there and just did the finishing blow
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