AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > To Aru Kagaku no Railgun

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2009-12-04, 07:27   Link #121
Dean_the_Young
Has a life IRL
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Somewhere in the Anglo-Saxon Sphere
Eh. Electromagnetic fields don't work like that, but I already argued that horse to death. For one thing, fields aren't a radar; different philosophies. You can detect something in an electromagnetic field by the way it shifts the field, but radar works by sending waves and receiving the return when they bounce off, while a EM field doesn't do that.

I suppose that's just poor science metaphor on the manga's part than an actual description.



Anyway, I always saw it as she called the lightning down on herself, as an AoE blast centered on herself that caught others in the shock wave, though once on/near her she could redirect it.

Nearly all esper powers are self-centered as a matter of course; they all work by starting with changes with one's self. I'm actually having trouble thinking of one who isn't like that.

If Mikoto could simply manipulate the elctromagnetic fields around her opponent's air from distance, there wouldn't be much point to most of her attacks. She could simply throw coins across the battlefield and do her railgun from any direction and vantage point.
Dean_the_Young is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-12-04, 12:50   Link #122
Keroko
Adeptus Animus
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Age: 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young View Post
Nearly all esper powers are self-centered as a matter of course; they all work by starting with changes with one's self. I'm actually having trouble thinking of one who isn't like that.
Oh, it happens. Telekinetics, water manipulators, the recent light manipulator and the Railgun anime's asphalt manipulator for example.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young View Post
If Mikoto could simply manipulate the elctromagnetic fields around her opponent's air from distance, there wouldn't be much point to most of her attacks. She could simply throw coins across the battlefield and do her railgun from any direction and vantage point.
Pretty much, yes. In fact she has been shown manipulating magnetic fields distances away from her body before, such as when she protected Touma from falling debris in episode 18 of Index.

The reason why she doesn't do so every time? Because it's cooler this way. In anime (or heck, any movie, game or book), what looks cooler will always go before what makes more sense. Trying to make sense of it will only make your head hurt. It's like asking why this guy who can manipulate air doesn't make the lungs of the hero explode, some powers just are toned down or pumped up to make battles look cooler.
__________________
Keroko is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-12-04, 13:00   Link #123
HyperCube
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Quote:
Anyway, I always saw it as she called the lightning down on herself, as an AoE blast centered on herself that caught others in the shock wave, though once on/near her she could redirect it.
Since when does a thunderbolt has a shock wave strong enough to harm surroundings,unless she creates it.

And if Misaka controls magnetic field from distance (which means that she can create electricity from the air,and other more scary things) then she can just kill any living thing by electrifying all her surroundings and putting her enemy into a sort of "electrical cage", then she just finish it off with her famous Railgun.
HyperCube is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-12-04, 13:05   Link #124
Keroko
Adeptus Animus
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Age: 26
Depends, do you want the in-story answer? Or the Out of Story?

In-story: Since Mikoto decided they could. Personal Reality and all that. If Mikoto thinks her lightning can create a shockwave powerful enough to harm surroundings, it can.

Out of Story: Because it looks cool. Let's face it, what looks stronger? Calling down a huge bolt of lightning with little to no visible damage? Or calling down a huge bolt of lightning and seeing the concrete shatter?
__________________
Keroko is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-12-04, 13:10   Link #125
ZeroForever
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: all and none
when does a lightning bolt striking a bridge have enough power to short out a city entire sections of a city.... it doesn't but the one in the series did... so obviously the power and damage is abnormal.
Honestly though there have been good arguements to refute my/and other peoples concepts of characters powers but to many things like Keroko noted reak of the looks cool over utility writing.
__________________
the anti-thesis of myself
ZeroForever is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-12-04, 13:16   Link #126
Keroko
Adeptus Animus
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Age: 26
It's the infamous 'sound in space' idea. You're not supposed to go "Hey, wait a minute, how come we can hear those laserblasts in space? There's no sound in space. I mean, if we ignore that the passage of light tends to be rather quiet to begin with." You're supposed to go "Holy- Did you see that ship get blown up by that Gundam's superlaser!? AWESOME!!"
__________________
Keroko is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-12-04, 18:02   Link #127
Dean_the_Young
Has a life IRL
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Somewhere in the Anglo-Saxon Sphere
Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Depends, do you want the in-story answer? Or the Out of Story?

In-story: Since Mikoto decided they could. Personal Reality and all that. If Mikoto thinks her lightning can create a shockwave powerful enough to harm surroundings, it can.

Out of Story: Because it looks cool. Let's face it, what looks stronger? Calling down a huge bolt of lightning with little to no visible damage? Or calling down a huge bolt of lightning and seeing the concrete shatter?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
It's the infamous 'sound in space' idea. You're not supposed to go "Hey, wait a minute, how come we can hear those laserblasts in space? There's no sound in space. I mean, if we ignore that the passage of light tends to be rather quiet to begin with." You're supposed to go "Holy- Did you see that ship get blown up by that Gundam's superlaser!? AWESOME!!"
Pretty much on the ball. To Aru is about the Rule of Cool on a number of levels.

With Misaka alone, we could make a list just from Railgun. Why it has varying dramatic recoil. Why she flips coins to launch them. Why we have a huge beam of energy rather than a tiny dart.



Then again, anyone looking for utility writing in a show about psychics is looking at the wrong series. Why have a market economy at all, when people can imagine up money or goods as needed? Why don't we see factories of people creating food to ship to the hungry? Why do we have windmills in the middle of the city itself, when people like Misaka can call in lightning to power the entire city for years?
Dean_the_Young is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-12-04, 21:49   Link #128
MeisterBabylon
~ Ping For Effect ~
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: The Golden Throne
Age: 28
Because there's not enough critical mass of ESPers to do this efficiently? That summoned materials don't exist outside of one's personal reality? It's all Aleister Crowley's fault?
__________________

On money: Every man has a price. For everything else, there's MakoCard.
MeisterBabylon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-12-05, 09:07   Link #129
Dean_the_Young
Has a life IRL
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Somewhere in the Anglo-Saxon Sphere
I think I'll go with "Author wanted city to look future!metropolis, and went with 'green is future'. (Sort of like how Code Geass had those giant solar stations in the middle of the system, or the tidal-wave generator island given to the Black Knights.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Oh, it happens. Telekinetics, water manipulators, the recent light manipulator and the Railgun anime's asphalt manipulator for example.



Pretty much, yes. In fact she has been shown manipulating magnetic fields distances away from her body before, such as when she protected Touma from falling debris in episode 18 of Index.
Hm. I had forgotten about the certain-manipulators. So there is a definite class, but for the most part they seem distinct from other powers types (which is to be expected).

When the debris fell, though, I thought she (Mikoto) was able to push it by changes vis-a-vis herself; by changing potentials/EM field strength on her end and projecting forward, she was able to push 'out' and push the debris away from her and, consequently, Touma. It doesn't necessarily implies she created/manipulated fields far away from her, except as an indirect effect of her own.

The key test is if she could do the same trick sideways without changing her own position. While changing her manipulated field in and out is obviously within her range of abilities, being able to push left/right at equal strength would require a separate field from another direction, one that isn't hers.
Dean_the_Young is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-12-05, 10:10   Link #130
Keroko
Adeptus Animus
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Age: 26
Except that she didn't push anything away, but manipulated the bars to the point where they blocked eachother in a pyramid shape, preventing Touma from getting hurt.

Of course, there's also her iron sand manipulation, and if you have read the latest Railgun chapter...

Spoiler for Railgun Manga:
__________________
Keroko is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-12-05, 10:28   Link #131
surerman
Banned
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Killers Special Mobile Prison
Send a message via Yahoo to surerman
Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Except that she didn't push anything away, but manipulated the bars to the point where they blocked eachother in a pyramid shape, preventing Touma from getting hurt.

Of course, there's also her iron sand manipulation, and if you have read the latest Railgun chapter...

Spoiler for Railgun Manga:
as expected from a girl that already gained (in her 10th years old) title "Electro-Master"

For good, she can use her electo-ability to give some Medical treatment over some one with stopped heart beating, re-stimulate people with half dead body (stroke), lift heavy debris from an after-earthquake-rescue with her magnetic ability , help blood circulation through electro-therapy even generate electricity for people after some natural disaster strike.

while for bad purpose, she can rob ATM or even the bank (via computer), killing people without evidence (Lightning strike), or Busting every electronic device with her Thunderbolt like attack.

Look like only Touma, whose can neutralize her electro-power, fit to be her groom
surerman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-12-05, 10:55   Link #132
HyperCube
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Quote:
Except that she didn't push anything away, but manipulated the bars to the point where they blocked eachother in a pyramid shape, preventing Touma from getting hurt.
Well then,the only explanation to that is the Schrodinger theory (well, if she thinks that she can, she does.).Otherwise,i guess they are pushing a little too much in the Electrokinesis power.

Quote:
Of course, there's also her iron sand manipulation
She controls magnetism then hm?

Quote:
as expected from a girl that already gained (in her 10th years old) title "Electro-Master"
Every power has its limits though...still,i want to know Misaka's power limits....(there is none until now -_-')
HyperCube is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-12-05, 11:07   Link #133
Keroko
Adeptus Animus
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Age: 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by HyperCube View Post
Otherwise,i guess they are pushing a little too much in the Electrokinesis power.
That's exactly what's happening, though it's only because Mikoto is the heroine, and thus her power gets the most attention. Any power can become über if you spend more time developing it.

For example, if we use the same 'loose science' that they use to überfy Mikoto's electro ability, telekinesis becomes the most versatile power in existence. After all, pyrokinesis is basically moving molecules to create fire, right? And cryokinesis slowing them down, right? Both can be done by a powerful telekinetic. Water and air manipulation are even easier for a telekinetic.

Presto, a psychic who can control all four elements, and all it took was telekinesis and a bit of handwavium.
__________________
Keroko is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-12-05, 11:15   Link #134
tsunade666
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: In my room
accelerator's redirection is a form of telekinesis right? or is it psychokinesis. Its just an advance form of either of those two with the limitation of range.

Well his a level 5. Shouldn't they be strong? I mean we only see her fight touma and an esper vs touma is like a one sided fight ( well except accelerator and the magicians ). So maybe were just underestimating her if we said that the electromaster's power are a bit to pushed.
tsunade666 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-12-05, 11:30   Link #135
Keroko
Adeptus Animus
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Age: 26
They're pushed allright, but it depends on your opinion if they're pushed positively or negatively. Me, I think they're pushed, but I also like that they do it. For me powers don't have to be scientifically justifiable for Mikoto to have them. What I like about them is that it goes beyond the usual 'person with lightning powers throws lightning and that's it' limit that most powers have, and show that if you look beyond the standard, you can do so much more with a superpower.

Hell, one of my To Aru OC's is also an electro user, but to give her a breath of originality, she uses her powers to augment herself, manipulating the electric pulses in her body to increase her movement speed and the pulses in her brain to increase her reaction speed. Makes sense scientifically? No, but it's a cool power.
__________________
Keroko is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-12-05, 11:37   Link #136
tsunade666
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: In my room
keroko To Aru OC? what OC? and yap its a cool power

But isn't it can be explained by science to. Well the nerve system run by electric pulse or something right? so what's the problem of increasing your reaction time by manipulating your own electric pulse? or I'm wrong on the whole level about the electric pulse on the nervous system?
tsunade666 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-12-05, 11:43   Link #137
Keroko
Adeptus Animus
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Age: 26
This OC. Though I'm sure many biologists and doctors are pulling their hairs out by me claiming that increasing the electronic pulses in a body would somehow confer super speed. Maybe Babylon can tell me just what would be incredibly wrong about that, he's a doctor after all.

But hey, it's a cool power and it makes somewhat sense, which is exactly the way most powers in To Aruverse work, so I went with it.
__________________
Keroko is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-12-05, 11:54   Link #138
SaintessHeart
Ehh? EEEEHHHHHH?
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Age: 25
Scientifically, it is impossible to do so because a magnetic field that originates from a single body is always consistent, according to Faraday's law. Biribiri is a single body thus we treat her as a SINGULAR closed circuit.

Even if we apply Lenz's Law to send the beams in the opposite direction, we have to take into account the rate of change of magnetic flux which changes the direction of the magnetic field, because fields work in the way of inverse square law with accordance to charge, not time. Given how heavy the beams are, the relative inertia would require an extremely strong localised magnetic field to control.

With that size of magnetic field, unfortunately, according to the divergence theorem and Gauss's law of magnetism, it means that everyone in a few hundred metre radius would have the iron sucked out of their blood through the pores of their skin.
__________________

When three puppygirls named after pastries are on top of each other, it is called Eclair a'la menthe et Biscotti aux fraises avec beaucoup de Ricotta sur le dessus.
Most of all, you have to be disciplined and you have to save, even if you hate our current financial system. Because if you don't save, then you're guaranteed to end up with nothing.
SaintessHeart is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-12-05, 12:23   Link #139
Dean_the_Young
Has a life IRL
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Somewhere in the Anglo-Saxon Sphere
Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
That's exactly what's happening, though it's only because Mikoto is the heroine, and thus her power gets the most attention. Any power can become über if you spend more time developing it.

For example, if we use the same 'loose science' that they use to überfy Mikoto's electro ability, telekinesis becomes the most versatile power in existence. After all, pyrokinesis is basically moving molecules to create fire, right? And cryokinesis slowing them down, right? Both can be done by a powerful telekinetic. Water and air manipulation are even easier for a telekinetic.

Presto, a psychic who can control all four elements, and all it took was telekinesis and a bit of handwavium.
Pretty much what I feel. The only real limit is what each person feels about it, which is the kicker. It should mean that powers can be highly variable on mental state of mind, something To Aru doesn't do much with.

Making a power that can't be wanked to infinity is hard, but then there's always Squirrel Girl absurdity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsunade666 View Post
accelerator's redirection is a form of telekinesis right? or is it psychokinesis. Its just an advance form of either of those two with the limitation of range.

Well his a level 5. Shouldn't they be strong? I mean we only see her fight touma and an esper vs touma is like a one sided fight ( well except accelerator and the magicians ). So maybe were just underestimating her if we said that the electromaster's power are a bit to pushed.
I see Accelerator's power not as a form telekinesis, but as a glorified reality text-editor. Pause, take the formula for whatever's affecting you, rewrite vector variables as desired, resume.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
Scientifically, it is impossible to do so because a magnetic field that originates from a single body is always consistent, according to Faraday's law. Biribiri is a single body thus we treat her as a SINGULAR closed circuit.

Even if we apply Lenz's Law to send the beams in the opposite direction, we have to take into account the rate of change of magnetic flux which changes the direction of the magnetic field, because fields work in the way of inverse square law with accordance to charge, not time. Given how heavy the beams are, the relative inertia would require an extremely strong localised magnetic field to control.

With that size of magnetic field, unfortunately, according to the divergence theorem and Gauss's law of magnetism, it means that everyone in a few hundred metre radius would have the iron sucked out of their blood through the pores of their skin.
...don't make me love you and your amazingly reasonable scientific brain. That would just be creepy.

Yeah, I made a hash of trying to explain that impossibility-ness earlier. Then again, multiple magnetic fields aren't really a solution either, because they'll all interfere with eachother in getting whatever you want done.

I put Mikoto down pretty much in "Rule of Cool" and the Schroddinger realizer category myself. Which isn't a slight, but rather that they try far too many things with her limited claimed scope of powers. (Why isn't sensing electric/magnetic fields one?)
Dean_the_Young is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-12-05, 12:48   Link #140
Altima of the Gates
Casting a spell on you...
*Graphic Designer
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Where there are no mallets or tentacles.... and the female cast of Tenjou Tenge is mine, all mine!
Age: 30
Send a message via AIM to Altima of the Gates Send a message via MSN to Altima of the Gates Send a message via Yahoo to Altima of the Gates
Quote:
(Why isn't sensing electric/magnetic fields one?)
Doesn't she have that? Isn't that why the Imoutos wear that visor? Because they aren't on the level of doing that yet?
__________________


Thanks to kira_lacusXX for this great sig!
Altima of the Gates is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:32.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.