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Old 2009-12-05, 13:03   Link #141
Dean_the_Young
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I should have rephrased that. She does, but by a one-power-per-esper rule she shouldn't. I was attempting an ironic question.

Electro-kinesis and electro-perception are, by all rights, two different abilities. In the same way that a hand without tactile perception (without feeling what's in your hand) can still manipulate things, so would electro-kinesis relate to electro-perception. Two different concepts.

Mikoto does as of Level 5, and Misaka-clones can do so (as a heart reader), but it's not really a logical that they should have, if that makes sense, especially if she didn't during levels 1 through 4. To be able to manipulate fields at all for any express purpose, such as constructing a iron-sand whip or making a shelter of falling I-beams, she has not not only be able to manipulate fields (for the hand-waven possibility purposes), but be able to do so in the right way.

Which requires knowing how strong the fields she needs to make and alter are.

Which would require being able to detect, measure, and quantify electric fields AND magnetic fields. Two different measurements, abilities which she isn't quite under the cover of electro-kinesis except as mandated secondary powers. Which To Aru doesn't quite acknowledge, so we have to realize them for it.


That make sense?
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Old 2009-12-05, 13:07   Link #142
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Originally Posted by Altima of the Gates View Post
Doesn't she have that? Isn't that why the Imoutos wear that visor? Because they aren't on the level of doing that yet?
Those are electron microscopes to see the saturation and movement of electrons because they, being clones, don't have the experience to sense the movement of electric currents in order to manipulate them.

In short, the Level is just an experience indicator. There are so many things you can do with a single ability, it is how one uses it to manipulate the environment.

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Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young View Post
...don't make me love you and your amazingly reasonable scientific brain. That would just be creepy.

Yeah, I made a hash of trying to explain that impossibility-ness earlier. Then again, multiple magnetic fields aren't really a solution either, because they'll all interfere with eachother in getting whatever you want done.

I put Mikoto down pretty much in "Rule of Cool" and the Schroddinger realizer category myself. Which isn't a slight, but rather that they try far too many things with her limited claimed scope of powers. (Why isn't sensing electric/magnetic fields one?)
OT : Well I am recovering from a recent Physics exam so these things come quick to me. But keep it quiet before my newest waifu from Seizon hears it.

Her sensing of fields is probably limited because of the large electric current passing through her body that generates an uber magnetic force in close proximity, resulting in the other interfering electric or magnetic forces seem negligible in terms of resultant forces.
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Old 2009-12-05, 13:43   Link #143
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Doesn't Biribiri manipulate electromagnetic fields?
I don't know my science, but electric fields aren't really separate from Magnetic fields. They come together.
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Old 2009-12-05, 13:48   Link #144
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Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
Those are electron microscopes to see the saturation and movement of electrons because they, being clones, don't have the experience to sense the movement of electric currents in order to manipulate them.

In short, the Level is just an experience indicator. There are so many things you can do with a single ability, it is how one uses it to manipulate the environment.
I think Level may be a bit more than just experience, but also confidence, confidence which would feed into the Schrodinger affect of allowing people to claim more related abilities because they believe they can. I, personally, view it Levels as a reflection of just how much someone thinks they can do, which of course has a big influence on their actual abilities in terms of replacing reality.

But there must be a barrier of some sort, or everyone* would be Level 5's. But esper powers appear very much to be a pyramid setup, with fewer people one each level.

*Imaginative people, at least, with good senses of justification.
Quote:
OT : Well I am recovering from a recent Physics exam so these things come quick to me. But keep it quiet before my newest waifu from Seizon hears it.
Just what are you putting in those milkshakes anyway?

(Referring to your staus description, of course.)
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Old 2009-12-05, 13:53   Link #145
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Doesn't Biribiri manipulate electromagnetic fields?
I don't know my science, but electric fields aren't really separate from Magnetic fields. They come together.
Electric fields and magnetic fields are inter-related, and do form what we know as electro-magnetic fields, but they are different elements of electromagnetic fields.

In a sense, they generate eachother: a change in the electric field generates a magnetic field, and changing a magnetic field makes a electric field. They have different meanings, though, and different effects. It's been awhile, though, so I'm not the best person to describe the differences.

If only there was someone currently enrolled in a higher level physics course, hint hint hint...
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Old 2009-12-05, 14:15   Link #146
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Doesn't Biribiri manipulate electromagnetic fields?
I don't know my science, but electric fields aren't really separate from Magnetic fields. They come together.
According to Faraday's Law of Induction, yes. But she does so by generating a large electric current in her body to provoke a magnetic field.

In short, she manipulates the magnetic fields by Lenz's Law and extensive changing of the direction of electric current in her body, and magnetises materials through paramagnetism and ferromagnetism.

If she is a Lv 7 she could probably levitate herself through diamagnetism.
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Old 2009-12-05, 15:16   Link #147
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Pretty much what I feel. The only real limit is what each person feels about it, which is the kicker. It should mean that powers can be highly variable on mental state of mind, something To Aru doesn't do much with.

Making a power that can't be wanked to infinity is hard, but then there's always Squirrel Girl absurdity.
Powers are only as weak as the mind makes them, after all. Many times people have complained a power is weak, lightning has often been criticized for having show few uses except zapping people. Then Mikoto came along. Put your mind to it, and even superficially useless powers becomes a tool of destruction. For example; "Control the creatures of the deep sea" sounds pretty useless as a combat power, right?



suddenly doesn't sound as useless now, does it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young View Post
I should have rephrased that. She does, but by a one-power-per-esper rule she shouldn't. I was attempting an ironic question.

Electro-kinesis and electro-perception are, by all rights, two different abilities. In the same way that a hand without tactile perception (without feeling what's in your hand) can still manipulate things, so would electro-kinesis relate to electro-perception. Two different concepts.
I should point out that Mikoto was never described as an electrokinesist. She is more accurately described as an electro user. This subtle change in term makes a lot of difference, as it can encompass both perception as well as application.
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Old 2009-12-05, 16:06   Link #148
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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Powers are only as weak as the mind makes them, after all. Many times people have complained a power is weak, lightning has often been criticized for having show few uses except zapping people. Then Mikoto came along. Put your mind to it, and even superficially useless powers becomes a tool of destruction. For example; "Control the creatures of the deep sea" sounds pretty useless as a combat power, right?



suddenly doesn't sound as useless now, does it?
...

That... that is...

That is the validation of Aquaman.




Quote:
I should point out that Mikoto was never described as an electrokinesist. She is more accurately described as an electro user. This subtle change in term makes a lot of difference, as it can encompass both perception as well as application.
Point. Many points, actually, though it sort of gives her a field of powers.
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Old 2009-12-05, 16:12   Link #149
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Point. Many points, actually, though it sort of gives her a field of powers.
That's the entire point of being a high level user. You don't just get to shoot more powerful bolts of lightning, you also discover more and more applications of your power. Versatility is the key here.
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Old 2009-12-05, 18:53   Link #150
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Eh, I was referring to starting as a Level 1, if you started with that classification.

But hey, first rule of RPG's: don't fix what's broken, so long as it's in your favor.
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Old 2009-12-05, 19:19   Link #151
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ESP is a way of realising one's inner world. This isn't explicitly mean one can only possess one kind of ability as ESP in To-Aruverse is more like reality warping by serious restrictions. The level also should mean the strenght of ones ability to realise his/her inner world, not the experience to use it. Though the two usually the one and the same.
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Old 2009-12-05, 19:31   Link #152
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... I'm not sure I understand what you're saying, but Mikoto explicitly stated that no psychic can have more than one ability.
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Old 2009-12-05, 19:39   Link #153
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Yeah, but it can be in extreme cases pyrokinesis combined with telekinesis or something like that. Because it's their inner world. They're warping reality by their imagination. That's the power of an esper there.
It's a bit like Saten's power from Needless. It's one ability, but it has two different kind of effects.
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Old 2009-12-05, 19:48   Link #154
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That's still utilizing the versatility of your one ability, not multiple abilities.
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Old 2009-12-05, 20:03   Link #155
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Right. I might've stated rather confusingly, but that's it in short. Why we debate Misaka can affect magnetism? Afterall she's able to do what'sn inside her inner world. she can have electric and magnetic powers at once, especially if she uses the former to create the later. There's no set rule that one's power should fit into one narrow term or cathegory. That's what I mean.
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Old 2009-12-05, 20:36   Link #156
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For the sake of argument, "single ability" was never defined.
They are probably marked by what espers have shown to do, and these data are recorded in the database.
It just happens that most of the espers seem only to be able to control one entity.

I'm sure all the Electromasters are capable of inducing both magnetic and electric fields.


In this case, "dual skill" would just mean that you are capable of performing tasks contained by multiple abilities stored in the database.
Now, it's never stated whether there exists a machine to identify your power by examining your AIM.
This is important, because the person, who seems to have multiple abilities, might have a new ability that just seems to be a combination of the other two.
One poor example is that there are multiple classifications of teleporting, and some completely encompass others.
/shrugs
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Old 2009-12-05, 21:05   Link #157
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Some esper users may think that their ability does something, but it could be something else entirely that's far more useful. Leveling up is the realization of this, along with some more power.
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Old 2009-12-05, 22:25   Link #158
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... I'm not sure I understand what you're saying, but Mikoto explicitly stated that no psychic can have more than one ability.
Kinda contradicted by the mandatory secondary powers, though, and the number of things only really supported by the Schrodinger theorem.

Probably better and more accurate to say that psychics can only use one category of ability, though that category might include/expand to include a number of different things. (Electro-kinesis AND electro-senses, for example.)
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Old 2009-12-05, 22:57   Link #159
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Well it more like that. From a single root that grows into a big tree with lots of branches and fruits.

It may start from being a simple electro master for a level 1 but when one level ups. His/her field of AIM and power widens. Like a simple RPG that has skill tree with it. Even its magnetism it can still be rooted from simple electric conduction.
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Old 2009-12-05, 23:42   Link #160
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young View Post
Kinda contradicted by the mandatory secondary powers, though, and the number of things only really supported by the Schrodinger theorem.

Probably better and more accurate to say that psychics can only use one category of ability, though that category might include/expand to include a number of different things. (Electro-kinesis AND electro-senses, for example.)
Electro-kinesis? Japan already applied it in one of it's fastest bullet train
The Train flow on the rail but didn't touch it, but they accidentally out of rail not long ago human error I guess
They use magnet with same polar to keep the train flow in the air, while different polar used to pull and push the train with combination of electric pulse
Magnetic-fly! bzzzz.....!!!

oh btw, I think Mikoto can fly if she can :

1.perform some magnetic field around her body to reject gravitation, some electro-spark-ball like-field, Magneto (X-Men) style

2.Pull herself to nearby magnetic things around her, like bridge, building antennae, or .....plane. You know...Tarzan or Spiderman style, but once she reach forest or village, it's useless

3.Use magnetic dust on earth surface to hold her body in the air like how she use it for magnetic dust sword, like bouncing on a trampoline , but she must cover her eyes if want to use it (Earth Bender style/ Avatar)

still I m amazed with her cellphone badass quality to not fry when she use her railgun and then receive some call from her friends

Last edited by surerman; 2009-12-05 at 23:59.
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