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Old 2009-07-10, 09:54   Link #2381
Jan-Poo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Christen View Post
She only said you are alone on this island. It might be the same thing, but semantics is both your friend and enemy in here.
Uhm no she also said:

The only one alive on this island is you.

@visored theory

The worst problem in your theory is that I can't see why Kyrie had to talk in riddles to Battler, even if she was threatened, at that point it should have been clear that the assassin would kill her anyway. So why Kyrie didn't just screamed the "culprit is xxxxx" as a finale note? If done quickly it could have worked before the culprit could pull the trigger.

Then I don't know how Shannon could move Kinzo's body around, this doesn't seem very realistic, but well..

About the shed there is another possible explanation. Remember how in Ep1 they changed the lock? That could have happened in ep4 as well.

Also I disagree with your idea that the guns are all the same. Clearly the gun that killed natsuhi in ep1 and George in ep4 are not strong enough to smash half a face. But then again I doubt that the smashed faces where actually caused by guns. I suspect there is another weapon involved.
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Last edited by Jan-Poo; 2009-07-10 at 10:10.
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Old 2009-07-10, 10:12   Link #2382
Marion
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MeoTwister5 View Post
Now that I think about it, Sakutaro's pin looks like Germany's Iron Cross medal.

Godwin's law in action |D

@Knick: You make a plausible point about Eva + Hideyoshi dying if Shannon lives and vice versa.

Something I noticed in the last four games: When someone leaves the group discussion between the 7 parents, the remaining ones who didn't leave survive.

In EP 1 Natsuhi, Eva and Hideyoshi left early. As a result Krauss, Rosa, Rudolf and Kyrie died. EP 2 Rosa leaves early, causing the death of the other six. But because all of them stuck together in EP 3 all of them avoided death.

This makes me think that EP 4 is misleading with the discussion using this idea. At some point in the discussion Krauss and Kyrie left early, causing the death of the other parents. At this point I still believe Kyrie and Krauss are working together to some extent in some manner. As I pointed out before they either die in the 1st twilight or one after the other.
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Old 2009-07-10, 10:20   Link #2383
MeoTwister5
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When I think about it, remember that Kinzo has a good collection of guns that would still work. Also, considering that it's been suggested that only his Winchesters are still really working, Winchesters are pretty large-caliber rifles even when the barrels are sawed off. The entire Winchester family had bullet calibers ranging from .32s to to ludicrous .60s. Anything above .40 at close ranges (which is what the sawed off version are used for) can easily leave a gaping hole in your head.
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Old 2009-07-10, 10:57   Link #2384
Knicknevin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Uhm no she also said:

The only one alive on this island is you.

@visored theory

The worst problem in your theory is that I can't see why Kyrie had to talk in riddles to Battler, even if she was threatened, at that point it should have been clear that the assassin would kill her anyway. So why Kyrie didn't just screamed the "culprit is xxxxx" as a finale note? If done quickly it could have worked before the culprit could pull the trigger.

Then I don't know how Shannon could move Kinzo's body around, this doesn't seem very realistic, but well..

About the shed there is another possible explanation. Remember how in Ep1 they changed the lock? That could have happened in ep4 as well.

Also I disagree with your idea that the guns are all the same. Clearly the gun that killed natsuhi in ep1 and George in ep4 are not strong enough to smash half a face. But then again I doubt that the smashed faces where actually caused by guns. I suspect there is another weapon involved.
Assuming Kyrie made the call at gunpoint, all Shannon, or whoever was threatening her, had to say was "I'll let Battler live if you repeat the story I tell you." And she did, right? I think Battler dying at the end was due to something that even the killer couldn't foresee.

I'm only guessing that Shannon tossed Kinzo into the furnace herself. Kanon could have done it at some point earlier as well. Thanks to the delayed smell mechanic caused by shutting the boiler room door, it's always hard to tell how long he's been in there.

I dont think a new lock on the door could be missed. The storage room door has a built in lock, but it also has a hook for attaching a separate lock. Think back to Episode 1- they didn't change the lock on the door, they just added a new padlock to it. Go check if you don't believe me. I think Battler would notice if there were a second lock attached to the door. But again, the number of keys to that room has never been confirmed.

And as for the guns, well, George and Kyrie were the only ones without their heads blown off. And both of them took the shot right between the eyes. Since the shots hit dead center maybe they didn't have enough energy to blow the head apart like they did with the others, who were hit more on the side of the head.
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Old 2009-07-10, 11:15   Link #2385
Renall
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I realize you said you weren't going into motive, but why in your theory would Battler be spared when no one else is? Especially if he has a "sin" that's so important to the "Beatrice" who confronts him? If someone was willing to kill Maria (assuming anyone killed her), you'd think they'd be fine killing Battler too. A suicide theory has to account for why Battler wasn't killed. A different theory (mortal wounding, accident, etc.) would allow for someone wanting to kill him, but failing to do so.

Given all the circumstances, it's quite odd that Battler would survive through no affirmative act on his part. He was even trying to get the killer's attention once he got into the mansion, yet they never showed up.
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Old 2009-07-10, 11:35   Link #2386
rogerpepitone
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I can't remember offhand; is it mentioned in episode 4 where they got the key to the toolshed? Did they find it outside the toolshed, or was Gohda or Kumasawa carrying it, or did somebody go fetch it?
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Old 2009-07-10, 11:36   Link #2387
Knicknevin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
I realize you said you weren't going into motive, but why in your theory would Battler be spared when no one else is? Especially if he has a "sin" that's so important to the "Beatrice" who confronts him? If someone was willing to kill Maria (assuming anyone killed her), you'd think they'd be fine killing Battler too. A suicide theory has to account for why Battler wasn't killed. A different theory (mortal wounding, accident, etc.) would allow for someone wanting to kill him, but failing to do so.

Given all the circumstances, it's quite odd that Battler would survive through no affirmative act on his part. He was even trying to get the killer's attention once he got into the mansion, yet they never showed up.
Well, by my theory, the killer was already dead by the time Battler started looking for them. As for why Battler was spared, well, like I said- arguments about motive don't get far. But with that said... 'Beatrice' seems to have constructed this entire scenario for the sole purpose of tormenting Battler. She let him live so that he could waste his time trying to figure out what happened, fail, and in despair accept the witch. Didn't quite work though...

I'm not 100% on this theory at all, but I think I may be on the right track. Shannon and Nanjo were the only people I could construct a realistic suicide scenario for that didn't involve Maria cleaning up after and killing herself. And if Battler saw Nanjo in drag come out onto the balcony, I think the mental shock would render any further testimony useless...

Quote:
I can't remember offhand; is it mentioned in episode 4 where they got the key to the toolshed? Did they find it outside the toolshed, or was Gohda or Kumasawa carrying it, or did somebody go fetch it?
Oh, that's a good question. Checking... They never said. Huh. I wonder why.

Last edited by Knicknevin; 2009-07-10 at 11:51.
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Old 2009-07-10, 12:02   Link #2388
Jan-Poo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Knicknevin View Post
Assuming Kyrie made the call at gunpoint, all Shannon, or whoever was threatening her, had to say was "I'll let Battler live if you repeat the story I tell you." And she did, right? I think Battler dying at the end was due to something that even the killer couldn't foresee.

I'm only guessing that Shannon tossed Kinzo into the furnace herself. Kanon could have done it at some point earlier as well. Thanks to the delayed smell mechanic caused by shutting the boiler room door, it's always hard to tell how long he's been in there.

I dont think a new lock on the door could be missed. The storage room door has a built in lock, but it also has a hook for attaching a separate lock. Think back to Episode 1- they didn't change the lock on the door, they just added a new padlock to it. Go check if you don't believe me. I think Battler would notice if there were a second lock attached to the door. But again, the number of keys to that room has never been confirmed.

And as for the guns, well, George and Kyrie were the only ones without their heads blown off. And both of them took the shot right between the eyes. Since the shots hit dead center maybe they didn't have enough energy to blow the head apart like they did with the others, who were hit more on the side of the head.
Point one: I don't think Kyrie could really trust that person at that point. Why would she believe that Battler would be spared? Well I don't know, but if it was me I'd rather die screwing up my killer's plan, than dying after doing exactly as he planned.

Point two: Kanon is as credible as Shannon. He couldn't even lift that fertilizer bag. You could say he was faking to be that weak, but that was really unnecessary, plus considering his body features I don't think he's really that strong.

Point four: I'm no expert, but I don't think that a gun that can smash half a head with a single bullet could do such a neat hole regardless of the point it hits.
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Old 2009-07-10, 12:31   Link #2389
Hareoic
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Point four: I'm no expert, but I don't think that a gun that can smash half a head with a single bullet could do such a neat hole regardless of the point it hits.
Head smash = close range.
Neat hole = distance.
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Old 2009-07-10, 13:34   Link #2390
lovelysan
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Can't exit wounds be bigger than the entry wound? Meaning, if one was shot in the head from the back of the skull...

I don't know all that much about gunshot wounds though. And I reaaaaaaly don't wanna look it up for fear of real-life pics D: . And I also can't really ask anyone about it because that would be kind of an akward thing to bring up....
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Old 2009-07-10, 13:41   Link #2391
Ithekro
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Exit wounds tend to be larger (view the assasination tapes of John F. Kennedy shows that much). But then you probably could get a similar effect just by smashing the faces with the butt of the rifle, even these sawed off versions. But yeah, gun to the back of the head would provide an excellent face remover if the caliber is large enough and with a round that spreads a lot on impact with enough speed to exit the head area. But with wounds as seen...that would take a lot of energy from the round to take out that much face. It would also leave a small entry hole at the back of the skull.

The other problem is that the skull behind the face would also be missing...it is not.
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Old 2009-07-10, 13:42   Link #2392
Jan-Poo
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Usually exit wounds are bigger. However the novel never tells anything about that.
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Old 2009-07-10, 14:09   Link #2393
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Since we're talking theories, I guess I'll quickly go over mine again.

Spoiler for Episode 4:


Feel free to question or point out errors if you wish.

Last edited by crazysjd89; 2009-07-10 at 14:53.
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Old 2009-07-10, 14:16   Link #2394
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I think Battler said that even though kumasawa and Gohda had the key, they still wouldn't be able to open it from inside, but they could have given the key through the window and be killed as you said.

Wait.

The key was in Gohda's pocket....


This is hard.
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Old 2009-07-10, 14:17   Link #2395
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Teapot View Post
I think Battler said that even though kumasawa and Gohda had the key, they still wouldn't be able to open it from inside, but they could have given the key through the window and be killed as you said.

Wait.

The key was in Gohda's pocket....


This is hard.
Yes, they put the key or "fake key" in Gohda's pocket after killing him. Then they either locked the shed door, or didn't based on if it is assumption 1 or assumption 2.
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Old 2009-07-10, 14:28   Link #2396
Alaya
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Teapot View Post
I think Battler said that even though kumasawa and Gohda had the key, they still wouldn't be able to open it from inside, but they could have given the key through the window and be killed as you said.

Wait.

The key was in Gohda's pocket....


This is hard.
Actually it pretty easy for shed scenario in episode 4.

The killer broke in, kill those two inside, put a new lock since the lock of the shed is a normal padlock.
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Old 2009-07-10, 14:30   Link #2397
Marion
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I have a theory:

What if 'Battler' is a name passed down by the family?
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Old 2009-07-10, 15:15   Link #2398
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The shed has a normal lock, in addition to the padlock. There's no mention of using a padlock this time. It's possible to pass things through the window, so the key could have been put back in with string.

As for Maria's death, I think she knew she was taking poison. Remember the other tests? Surely hers was similar (yours / Rosa's / everyone else's).

Rule Y is probably "While standing by the rose, Maria will receive a note. Rudolf will die at the first twilight, and Battler and Maria will survive to the last twilight."
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Old 2009-07-10, 15:21   Link #2399
Alaya
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Some random rule that pops in my head. Super crazy speculation.

"Prior to the beginning of the game, Shannon, Kanon or both would die before the game start. If Shanon died, Kanon will take up Shannon role and vice versa. If both died, the game will start with their corpses as the first twilight victims".
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Old 2009-07-10, 17:13   Link #2400
k//eternal
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So how many buildings are known to be on Rokkenjima, anyway?

There's the mansion, the shed (if that can be counted), the chapel, Toraian, and Kuwadorian. That makes five, and the name Rokkenjima suggests six.

Also, the chapel's inscription, "opening at a probability of a quadrillion to one", may suggest that (if you think the mansion is "building one" or "Unian" or whatever) somehow the chapel connects to both the mansion and Kuwadorian. If you think about Kinzo trying to keep everyone away from the chapel, it's obvious that there should be something about it he wanted to keep hidden, and the gruesome scene in EP2 probably distracted everyone from finding it.

We know that when the chapel door is locked, it "prevents all methods of entry or exit", but that doesn't mean that other passages don't exist while the door is unlocked. Like, the door is connected to some mechanism that also makes secret passages accessible while it's unlocked.

Have we ever had a guarantee that the chapel door was locked (i.e., in red) at any point in time, and was it at a time when someone might have needed to use a secret passage? We know that there must be rooms in the mansion that most of the siblings are unaware of; this is demonstrated by the room with the gold bar. It's not terribly farfetched to expect that a secret passage is somewhere in the mansion.

Also, do we have a guarantee of the distance between Kuwadorian and the mansion? We know that Rosa was basically random walking in the forest, so it may have taken her a long time to reach it even when it was actually close by. Additionally, the EP2 finale mentions that the paths outside the mansion are paved in a way that exaggerates distance, so there may be a similar trick at work.
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