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Old 2009-07-10, 17:31   Link #2401
rogerpepitone
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IIRC, going from times in episode 3, it takes about half an hour to walk the distance from the guesthouse to where Eva & Rosa found the gold. I think ep. 4 also gives a half-hour time from the mansion to Kuwadorian.
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Old 2009-07-10, 18:26   Link #2402
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Originally Posted by k//eternal View Post
So how many buildings are known to be on Rokkenjima, anyway?

There's the mansion, the shed (if that can be counted), the chapel, Toraian, and Kuwadorian. That makes five, and the name Rokkenjima suggests six.
I'm not sure what you mean by 'Toraian,' but wouldn't the Guest House be the 6th building? I find it awesome that Kuwadorian is the Japanese pronunciation of "Quadrillion," so the chapel's inscription is extremely interesting. Not enough stuff has happened at the chapel, so it's really hard to speculate what the deal is there
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Old 2009-07-10, 18:28   Link #2403
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I'm not sure what you mean by 'Toraian,' but wouldn't the Guest House be the 6th building? I find it awesome that Kuwadorian is the Japanese pronunciation of "Quadrillion," so the chapel's inscription is extremely interesting. Not enough stuff has happened at the chapel, so it's really hard to speculate what the deal is there
Toraian is the small island where the shrine is.
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Old 2009-07-10, 18:30   Link #2404
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Kuwadorian: Hidden mansion (Nine Birds' Retreat)
Toraian: Guesthouse (Vistors' Retreat)
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Old 2009-07-10, 19:04   Link #2405
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Originally Posted by Freelii View Post
I'm not sure what you mean by 'Toraian,' but wouldn't the Guest House be the 6th building? I find it awesome that Kuwadorian is the Japanese pronunciation of "Quadrillion," so the chapel's inscription is extremely interesting. Not enough stuff has happened at the chapel, so it's really hard to speculate what the deal is there
well not really since Kuwadoririon is the exact transliteration. And it is even clearer with toraian since trillion should be toririon.

Kuwadorian and Toraian could be better transliterated as: "quadrian" and "trian" whatever that mean...

Quote:
There's the mansion, the shed (if that can be counted), the chapel, Toraian, and Kuwadorian. That makes five, and the name Rokkenjima suggests six.
If you really want to include small constructions then there's one at the dock (acording to the anime), and most probably there's another one at the "back".
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Old 2009-07-10, 19:45   Link #2406
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But then that'd bring it up to seven, wouldn't it?
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Old 2009-07-10, 20:32   Link #2407
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Well I don't really think the shed and the little building at the ports should be included. Sounds lame to me.

Even then, I wonder what's the meaning of this odd numeration. the Kuwadorian could be even the first house ever built on Rokkenjima, even before the Ushiromiya mansion. It is actually very plausible that the Kuwadorian was there even before Kinzo knew of Rokkenjima's existence and that might be the reason he decided to buy the island and move his family there.

So why the Kuwadorian is the fourth? The only way I can explain this is that Rokkenjima has a very long history we are not aware of. So maybe there really were 6 houses there and the kuwadorian was the only one that survived.

However that doesn't explain why the guesthouse was called Toraian. Was that Kinzo's idea? And why?
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Old 2009-07-10, 20:39   Link #2408
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Maybe the shrine was the last house?
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Old 2009-07-11, 01:17   Link #2409
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Well, first of all. Let's stop the speculation about how Gohda and Kumasawa were killed. There's several acceptable theories now that can explain it easily, so I don't think there needs to be much trickery. I'll put it in blue:

There is more than one key to the garden storage.

Gohda and Kumasawa may have hung themselves, and been shot from the window.

They might also have given the key to the killer, who opened the door and shot them. The killer hung them, locked the door, and used a string trick to get the key back into Gohda's pocket from the window.

Same as above, but the key in Gohda's pocket might have been replaced with a fake instead of being wired in.


A new lock is denied. The lock on the door is built in. A padlock could be added, but wasn't, or it would be rather obvious.

I think that covers it, but feel free to add. Until Beato denies our theories with the red, we're pretty much at the limit of what we can learn about this one, so I'm content waiting. And honestly, whatever trick the killer used, it doesn't make much difference- Gohda and Kumasawa are dead. How they got that way doesn't change the rest of the game board a whole lot.



The matter of the six houses is interesting, since there are also 6 'sacrifices' chosen by the 'key'. And the similarity between the name 'Kuwadorian' and the pronunciation of 'quadrillion'. Also, it should be pointed out that the inscription on the lintel above the chapel door is written in English. That threw Battler off in Episode 2 when he saw it. I don't think the gold is hidden in Kuwadorian, but maybe it's a starting point?

Kuwadorian, where Beatrice once lived, might be a place important enough to Kinzo that he might think of it as a 'beloved homeland', if not all of Rokkenjima- the land where he was the absolute ruler. So what then would a sweetfish river be? There must be something with the way Japanese atlases show rivers, or something like that. Or maybe ocean currents? Eva supposedly got an idea from the fact that the ayu (sweetfish) live both in fresh and salt water at different points in their life.

Honestly I have no idea where to go from there. If we knew what the river was, the 'village' where you find the 'two' might become obvious, and these two lead us to some 'shore', where you find the 'key'. But I'm stuck at the river.
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Old 2009-07-11, 07:04   Link #2410
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I don't think it's a fake key; IIRC, episode 1 mentions that the shed key is distinctive, and Battler recognizes the key when he retrieves it from Gohda.
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Old 2009-07-11, 07:09   Link #2411
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It's basically been confirmed on all fronts that all the keys were distinctive, and the only way is to replicate the keys, which I think was also shot down by the red.
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Old 2009-07-11, 08:08   Link #2412
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Kuwadorian, where Beatrice once lived, might be a place important enough to Kinzo that he might think of it as a 'beloved homeland', if not all of Rokkenjima- the land where he was the absolute ruler. So what then would a sweetfish river be? There must be something with the way Japanese atlases show rivers, or something like that. Or maybe ocean currents? Eva supposedly got an idea from the fact that the ayu (sweetfish) live both in fresh and salt water at different points in their life.

Honestly I have no idea where to go from there. If we knew what the river was, the 'village' where you find the 'two' might become obvious, and these two lead us to some 'shore', where you find the 'key'. But I'm stuck at the river.
Forget the idea that the river is really a river, it is not. However Eva begun to understand at the time she thought that maybe fishes could still swim on it even if it isn't a river. Then she says "but then that means the river is tied to the ocean.... aaaah!".
Later when she met Rosa, the latter said that "the sweetfish part wasn't important". But Eva again replies that it was an important hint because it made her think about the ocean.

Now this is assuming that Eva actually got it right, but how many things are "tied" to the ocean, are not rivers, you can find them in an atlas and have fishes that swim in it that are not sweetfishes?

"Sea" is the only thing I can think of. Maybe salt lakes too (unlikely) or ocean currents (however the ocean currents are not displayed in atlas normally).

As for the "homeland", always assuming it's a geographical place I think there are only the following options:

-The homeland is a city/village/etc.
This is the most obvious option, but that's why I don't really believe it's the right one. Anyway at this point there are two suboptions. The homeland is Odawara, the homeland is a city we don't know of. If the latter is true the riddle is not solvable, nor by us nor by the servants the cousins or anyone that doesn't know Kinzo very well. And that would kinda defy the purpose of the riddle and the magic. If the city is indeed Odawara, then there's the Enoura theory which is kinda interesting, however Ryukishi himself labeled it as "inconclusive". It is also difficult to imagine what the river is. A railway isn't really tied to the ocean, doesn't have fishes that swim in it. Unless there's a japanese pun that i'm not aware of.

-the homeland is a country.
In this case it's quite easy: Japan. And in this case finding the river that runs through it is also quite easy: The sea of Japan.

-the homeland is a continent.
Then it would be Asia. However I can't really imagine what the river could be.

-the homeland is a planet.
In other words: the whole planet earth. In that case the whole ocean mass is the river that runs through it. But more in detail the Atlantic Ocean seen from a 2d world map would probably look like a river.

It's been a long time since I developed a theory based on this last case. According to this point of view the village is the Antarctica continent. Of the various theories I've heard this is the "village" that fits more with Eva and young Eva discussion. Because Eva initially thought the village was an area of dense population and young Eva was really displeased by such reasoning, hinting that the "village" is the total opposite of that.
At this point I had a problem realizing what "the two" where, until I've found out that "kuchinishi" can have different meanings. For example it could mean "eaten by" or "in the mouth of". In that case the only major "two" that are distinguishable by looking at an antarctica map are the two major gulfs, that with a little fantasy could be seen as mouths. Now in this case the "shore" "eaten by the two" would be the "Ice shelf" which somewhat really is a shore. The problem is I can't find a satisfactory way to get 6 characters from it. "Tanagoori" "棚氷" "たなごおり" none of them have 6 characters. "アイス シェルフ" could be 6 characters if we consider "シェ" as a single unit. Alternatively you could read the kanjis in a different way and then yes there are several ways to get 6 characters, but which one is right?
In other words this is a dead end.

Recently I've tried to change my approach and start from the idea that the homeland is Japan. In that case the village would be Tsushima. Now Tsushima is actually an arcipelago comprising two major island and a little island just between the two. This island is called "Shimayama" 島山. Getting 6 characters from this is easy. shimayama is the kunyomi, you just need to "read it in another way" the onyomi and you get "tousan".
Now this is wild specualtion but "tousan" phonetically sounds like "father". Also you can read "tousan" even from "juuza"'s kanji.

And this is what you get from the geographical approach. There are other different approaches, like the kanji reading and they also can lead to a plausible "key".

In the end we have many "key" candidates. But as long as we can't test their validity we are stuck. We might get to the right key, but without a way to check it we won't be able to tell it apart from the other possible keys.

The biggest problem I have right now is understanding the meaning of head, chest, stomach, knee and feet.

now I've tried to think many different things. One of them was trying to read the kanji in another way

頭 胸 腹 膝 足

You could read them as Toukyou naka shitsu...

Well I don't know... there are like a hundreds of Kanji that can be read as "tou".
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Old 2009-07-11, 10:21   Link #2413
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I'm still puzzled at how Eva commented on the final steps of recognizing the key. It's probably a word that can be 6 or not 6 letters. When she said letters, can that also mean Japanese characters?
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Old 2009-07-11, 13:40   Link #2414
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she said "moji", it means "character", it could be romaji, katana, hiragana and I think kanji are also included.
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Old 2009-07-13, 01:24   Link #2415
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Ok so I have a question; my friend is saying that Lambda's red text at the end of Episode 4 regarding Genji, Nanjo, and Kumasawa's murder in Episode 1 can be read as if she's only talking about that one murder when she says they're not murderers.

He's saying that you can read it that way in Japanese.

Someone want to confirm this or refute it? Cause it could be very important.
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Old 2009-07-13, 02:25   Link #2416
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I put up my notes (including all red/blue text) for episode 4 at http://www.geocities.com/rogerpepitone/U4-notes.html . Other notes are at http://www.geocities.com/rogerpepitone/U3-notes.html and http://www.geocities.com/rogerpepito...eko-notes.html
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Old 2009-07-13, 03:57   Link #2417
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I've been thinking about things, and I had some thoughts as to the 'rules' that govern the game. I've seen some other folks try and define the 'rules' of the game, but those rules always seem too circumstantial. I tried to think about the rules from Higurashi, and had a few thoughts.

Rule A: The killings are always blamed on Beatrice. No matter who the killer or killers are, they always make an effort to pin the blame on 'Beatrice'. How they go about this, and how dedicated they are to the illusion, varies, whether it is by drawing the magic circles and staking the victims, selecting victims by the rules of the epitaph, or coercing people to testify that they are being killed by magic. In Ep4 it seems like Kinzo was taking the blame, but then 'Beatrice' took over and cleaned things up anyway.

Rule B: Ange always inherits the Ushiromiya fortune, and dies shortly after. Given what we saw in Episode 4, Ange probably suffers the same fate in the other episodes, just alot sooner. She probably only survives just long enough for the Sumaderas to finish setting her up as the new heir to the Ushiromiya fortune, and then she 'dies from illness'. Her sickly constitution was also the excuse for her not attending the conference.

Rule C: Beatrice exists. Not as a witch perhaps, but we have it in red that there was indeed a 'Beatrice' living in Kuwadorian at one time. And we understand that 'Beatrice' is a title, passed on to the new inheritor of the name, and that prior to the Beatrice that Rosa met, there was at least one more, the original. And we know for certain that there is someone masquerading as Beatrice, leading me to believe that this person is indeed the third Beatrice. Although who this third 'Beatrice' is is debatable. Personally, my money is on Shannon, given that Beato only appears on the game board if Shannon is going to live through the first twilight.

Rule D: Kinzo is dead. Krauss, Natsuhi, Nanjo, Genji, Kanon and Shannon are hiding it. You can argue about Kanon and Shannon, but both of them wear the Eagle, and go in and out of Kinzo's study at various points, though those scenes can be considered doubtful.

Honestly, if Ryukishi07 IS arranging things so that 'rules' to the game appear like in Higurashi, these rules leave me feeling like I'm missing something pretty big.

I'm pretty confidant about Rule B and D. A and C are iffy, since Beato doesn't appear in two games and arranging the crimes as 'magic' tends to vary from crime to crime. And I'm probably missing something obvious too. Thoughts?
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Old 2009-07-13, 04:49   Link #2418
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I don't think Krauss or Natushi know. In episode 3, the characters take Kinzo's silence as evidence the letter is genuine; Krauss is unhappy about that. If he knew, he could have ordered Genji to unlock the door.

As for the rules, I'd guess that rule X relates to the UnreliableNarrator. The pajama party suggests that it's possible to lie about thoughts and conversations with imaginary characters (Sakutarou, Kinzo, Beatrice) at any point; other events can only be changed if they are flagged with golden butterflies.

Rule Y relates to the overall goal of the real villain, and is carried out the same each Episode. (Maria meets Beatrice by the rose, though at noon in Ep 2; Rudolf dies at the first twilight; Battler & Maria survive to the tenth.) The killer can't be trying to fulfill the epitaph; s/he knows Kinzo is long dead. I think s/he is trying to convince Maria that Beatrice is revived and that they are in the Golden Land. I don't know why anybody would benefit from that, though.
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Old 2009-07-13, 04:51   Link #2419
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Originally Posted by rogerpepitone View Post
Would it be possible to put Roger's red text/blue text notes in the opening post please?
Sometimes I have to search through the forum while I'm thinking on something and I need find those notes to verify it, but it'd be easier that way, and I imagine I'm not the only one who sometimes forgets about the exact wordings of the reds/blues, therefore making that notes to find would be considerably easier for them too.
IIRC Crazy also had one of these blue/red compilations somewhere, and Chrono collected the ones for Ep4, so if the external link is a problem, then a link to those two posts would have almost the same effect.
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Old 2009-07-13, 05:09   Link #2420
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Originally Posted by izmosmolnar View Post
Would it be possible to put Roger's red text/blue text notes in the opening post please?
Sometimes I have to search through the forum while I'm thinking on something and I need find those notes to verify it, but it'd be easier that way, and I imagine I'm not the only one who sometimes forgets about the exact wordings of the reds/blues, therefore making that notes to find would be considerably easier for them too.
IIRC Crazy also had one of these blue/red compilations somewhere, and Chrono collected the ones for Ep4, so if the external link is a problem, then a link to those two posts would have almost the same effect.
I noted down the red text mostly in their original form. Slight alterations to a few but I remembered to list the majority in their original forms.

I'd upload it but I'm lazy.
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