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Old 2009-07-16, 03:04   Link #2501
stray
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unconfirmed View Post
there exists (or existed) 2 people who believe themselves to be Ushiromiya Battler.
Meant to do more than troll earlier... but actually, it's exactly the opposite. I double checked some of the lines to make sure. Let me add some lines to what people have already put up to be clear:

Spoiler for Red text:


Ok, let me put it like this... because it's a f'ed up logic trap that pwn'ed Battler, not really having anything to do with who was his mom. (although it was kind of nice he's taken to calling Kyrie mom...)

If Battler is Ushiromiya Battler, then
Battler was born from Ushiromiya Asumu.

That makes sense, right? So let me keep going:

If Battler = Ushiromiya Battler.
and Battler was not born from Asumu.
Then... Battler was not born.

Let me try to say it another way if that was confusing:

Every Ushiromiya Battler that exists was born from Ushiromiya Asumu.
A Ushiromiya Battler that was not born from Ushiromiya Asumu can not exist.
If Battler was not born from Asumu, he can not exist.

Names being exclusive or not should be irrelevant, and as far as why he can't say it, I'm not sure... and am burned out on speculating. Maybe because it's just conjecture, or maybe the same reason Beato can't say she's a witch in red. Either way, continuing with that logic...

Battler is Ushiromiya Battler.
Battler was born from Ushiromiya Asumu
There is no Battler that exists that was not born from Ushiromiya Asumu.

(of course, that does leave the possibility of a twin with the same name... or meta-Battlers, as they qualify the conditions)
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Last edited by stray; 2009-07-16 at 03:29.
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Old 2009-07-16, 03:35   Link #2502
k//eternal
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Well, yeah, that's more or less what she was attempting to make him think, and he fell for it. But it's been revealed (and made more explicit in the tea party) that as long as the red applies to some person with that name, it's valid.
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Old 2009-07-16, 06:21   Link #2503
kaitwospirit
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post
You know, the other possibility is ryukishi07 just doesn't know the difference between a stillbirth and a miscarriage. It would be an easy mistake to make.
It's also possible that it's Kyrie that doesn't know. And it's quite possible that she would have to be the only one to make that mistake to get all of the other characters saying "miscarriage" rather than "stillbirth," except maybe Rudolf, who's never commented on it. And, I mean, if she lost a baby, no matter when in the pregnancy it was, she'd be grief-stricken -- why would he correct her about technical terms?
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Old 2009-07-16, 06:34   Link #2504
Christen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kaitwospirit View Post
It's also possible that it's Kyrie that doesn't know. And it's quite possible that she would have to be the only one to make that mistake to get all of the other characters saying "miscarriage" rather than "stillbirth," except maybe Rudolf, who's never commented on it. And, I mean, if she lost a baby, no matter when in the pregnancy it was, she'd be grief-stricken -- why would he correct her about technical terms?
It was never confirmed in red so this is entirely possible.
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Old 2009-07-16, 06:45   Link #2505
k//eternal
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Actually, that might make sense. It's not like in ~1968 you can just hop on the Internet and read up on this stuff. Kyrie not knowing the difference seems OOC, but information would've been harder to come by, certainly.
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Old 2009-07-16, 07:32   Link #2506
blitz1/2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stray View Post
That's what Beatrice wants you to believe...
Hurray for anti-mystery! Isn't it easy to think that? Just believe in magic and case is solved!
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Old 2009-07-16, 07:51   Link #2507
Jan-Poo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stray View Post
Battler would have been born in July 1968 to be 18 in October of 1986... there's no way he could be that Beatrice's son if she died in 1967. And as far as being the son of the other siblings, if there was a question as to his birth why would Asumu's family acknowledge him or take him in?

Same problem... if he was Kyrie's son... well first off Kyrie had a miscarriage at the same time, unless she was carrying twins a miscarriage is a miscarriage. Asumu's successful pregnancy was what forced Rudolf to choose Asumu, according to Kyrie's backstory. Theoretically there could have been a 3rd woman... but that seems like a stretch... if so why didn't Rudolf go for door #3, or Kyrie. Asumu and Kyrie seem to have known about each other, so that would imply that Asumu for some reason willingly accepted a child that wasn't hers as her own, and more importantly her parents welcomed Rudolf's child into their home after Asumu's death. Just doesn't add up.

I like the stillborn twin idea...
Now, it's not like I believe in these theories, it's just that rather than thinking through absolutes (absolutely true and absolutely false) I rather think through probabilities. Battler is most certainly Rudolf's son imho. And the other theories are quite feeble, however I can't completely dismiss them unless they are 100% false, such in the case of a red truth negating them.

In the case of Battler being the child of the 1967 Beatrice, as you said if Battler is 18 years old he can't possibly be his son. "IF". Because if we assume that the Battler we know is not Asumu's Battler, then lying about one's age is really a minor thing in this context. This widely accepted theory assumes that the Battler we know replaced Asumu's son, but that could have happened anytime. In other words the background of the Battler we know could have been entirely replaced with Asumu's son's background, including the date of birth.
As I said this is unlikely, but not impossible.

As for Kyrie, it is absolutely impossible that a misscarriage could have led to a healthy newborn baby. However as some people are speculating, maybe Kyrie lied or maybe she didn't know the exact term (as the 80% of us) and she actually meant to say that her son died at birth. Again I hope Ryukishi isn't fucking with us on this, but I can't completely negate it.

Of course the same would go for your "Macbeth theory", if it wasn't negated by the red truth: "You are not Ushiromiya Asumu's son".

Now let's recapitulate the red truths and the theories:

1)Ushiromiya Battler's mother is Ushiromiya Asumu.
2) My name is Ushiromiya Battler.
3) It was from Ushiromiya Asumu that Ushiromiya Battler was born.
4) You are not Ushiromiya Asumu's son
5) Ushiromiya Battler is not Ushiromiya Asumu's son
6) Battler is not Asumu's son


Failed to repeat:

"It was from Ushiromiya Asumu that I was born"

There's only one Battler but Battler is a girl
Doesn't work else Battler would still be born from Asumu.

The Battler we know has been born from c-section
Doesn't work, he'd still be Asumu's son.

The Battler we know is born from Asumu, just not Ushiromiya Asumu, because she wasn't married yet
Doesn't work, see point six

Asumu is a gestational carrier
Doesn't work, else Battler could still say he was born from Asumu

What could work?

Asumu had two twins, the male one seemed to be allright but the female one had to be brought to light with a c-section. However the male one died after a while due to complications. Asumu went crazy for some reason and then she pretended the female one died thus rising her daughter as if she was her brother Battler, she also received the same name. Of course this female Battler is our Battler.

This is completely fucked up, but it works...


PS: I'd like people to use "red" only for things that are absolute facts. If you have a theory use "blue" instead. Thanx.
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Old 2009-07-16, 08:04   Link #2508
Christen
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However, being a buff pervert doesn't exactly make out Battler a female
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Old 2009-07-16, 08:07   Link #2509
Oekitarts
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and he WAS shirtless at one point.
Spoiler for Ep 2:
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Old 2009-07-16, 08:08   Link #2510
Marion
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And I think Battler would realize that he has a chest at one point :U
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Old 2009-07-16, 08:12   Link #2511
Jan-Poo
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Battler is a FtoM transexual! Ha ha ha, okay let's just forget this...
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Old 2009-07-16, 08:18   Link #2512
Alaya
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I don't know why, but I like the idea that Asumu's swap her son with Kyrie's one after they gave birth to Battler(s). For me, it's the most possible case and it does not contradict any red truth too.
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Old 2009-07-16, 09:01   Link #2513
Larrave
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unconfirmed View Post
Ushiromiya Battler is not Ushiromiya Asumu's son.

It was from Ushiromiya Asumu that Ushiromiya Battler was born.


If Battler wasn't a son but a daughter then those 2 statements can both be true.

I'd like to add that the Battler playing the game with Beatrice is definitely male and I doubt Ryukishi7 would something as horrible as making him into a transsexual. What this means is that no matter how you look at it, whether Ushiromiya Battler's a girl or not, there exists (or existed) 2 people who believe themselves to be Ushiromiya Battler. From what we know so far, the one playing Beato's game is the fake.
Spoiler for Battler girl theory:
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Old 2009-07-16, 09:05   Link #2514
Jan-Poo
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It wasn't. It is only said that Beatrice initiated a game to fight against Kinzo's Grandson.
Since Beatrice couldn't deny that Battler is Kinzo's grandson or Rudolf's son, everyone pretty much assumed that Battler is indeed Kinzo's grandson.
However Beatrice is fickle, it wouldn't be the first time that she refused to deny a theory that could be easily denied.
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Old 2009-07-16, 09:09   Link #2515
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And I'm pretty sure she did say that she never insisted that it has to be the Ushiromiya Battler who is Kinzo's grandson, but saying that she wants to fight Kinzo's grandson, never truly stating a specific person. She chose meta Battler for reasons that satisfy her selection process, up to the point where she questions whether this person is really the Battler that is related by blood to Kinzo.
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Old 2009-07-16, 09:27   Link #2516
Marion
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MeoTwister5 View Post
And I'm pretty sure she did say that she never insisted that it has to be the Ushiromiya Battler who is Kinzo's grandson, but saying that she wants to fight Kinzo's grandson, never truly stating a specific person. She chose meta Battler for reasons that satisfy her selection process, up to the point where she questions whether this person is really the Battler that is related by blood to Kinzo.
No she states that her opponent is Battler Ushiromiya, Kinzo's grandson. So no one but Battler can be qualified to play against her.
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Old 2009-07-16, 09:45   Link #2517
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Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
Actually, the Japanese term here is gender-neutral. So it 'grandchild' would probably be a more accurate way to say it. In Japanese, they tend to use the gender-neutral word in this situation, whereas English prefers to use a gender... I guess we'll change that in the next update.

Heh, same thing as the Nanjo case from EP3. Only in Umineko...
Here's chronotrig confirming that Beatrice wanted to fight against Kinzo's Grandchild, not Grandson.
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Old 2009-07-16, 09:47   Link #2518
Marion
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ffff semantics :V

Okay, well Battler is still the only one qualified to play against Beato.
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Old 2009-07-16, 09:52   Link #2519
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Originally Posted by Marion View Post
ffff semantics :V

Okay, well Battler is still the only one qualified to play against Beato.
Not if the other Grandchild is a girl named Battler.
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Old 2009-07-16, 10:20   Link #2520
kaitwospirit
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A reason to have two Battlers:

Rudolf and Asumu have had their cute little newborn Battler and have already placed him in the family register when something happens, and baby Battler dies.

However, Natsuhi is having some state-of-the-art fertility treatments. What to do to keep the game of one-up-manship going the way that Rudolf planned?

Another Battler! Quickly! We'll just hide him away until he's old enough the age discrepancy won't be too noticable...

This scenario is very unlikely, but it's one way we could have more than one Battler without the reasoning for it being completely incomprehensible.
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