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Old 2009-07-16, 16:13   Link #2541
unconfirmed
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I'm pretty sure that if Ryukishi7 wanted to mindrape us with that Battler =/= Battler thing, he wouldn't resort to some kind of weak explanation based on wording and loopholes. I think we're really thinking too hard when we go into abstract stuff like c-sections and other small technicalities. Whatever your initial impression was of that scene is probably what Ryukishi7 wanted you to stick with.

But for the sake of keeping the discussion going, here's my take on it all. From the red, we can generalize the information into 5 points.

1. meta-Battler is not Ushiromiya Asumu's son
2. But Ushiromiya Asumu is the mother of her son Ushiromiya Battler
3. meta-Battler said that he is indeed Ushiromiya Battler
4. meta-Battler has the blood of the Ushiromiya family as he is able to become Beato's opponent once again
5. meta-Battler has a little sister named Ange as the red specified with "my
little sister"


Based off those points we can deduce these corresponding points

1. meta-Battler currently has no fixed identity since he has an unknown mother X. Since his mother can be anyone, meta-Battler can be anyone.(female meta-Battler loophole is not really viable as meta-Battler seems to be male)

2. meta-Battler =/= Asumu's son,
Ushiromiya Battler = Asumu's son,
therefore, meta-Battler =/= Ushiromiya Battler (since this is just a rearrangement of the previous red facts, this has to be fact as well)

3. in order to not contradict with statement 2, two Ushiromiya Battlers must exist...is what you'd like to think. But I feel that they're talking about the identity "Ushiromiya Battler" rather than the name. So how about this, through method X, a shell called meta-Battler is able to receive the identity of Ushiromiya Battler. Therefore, that person becomes Ushiromiya Battler but also is not biologically Ushiromiya Battler.
(Ushiromiya Battler) =/= Ushiromiya Battler.

4. meta-Battler is still a blood descendant of Ushiromiya Kinzo. This fixes the existence of meta-Battler to the Ushiromiya family. More specifically, meta-Battler is the "grandson" of Kinzo, that means meta-Battler is supposed to exist as the 5th cousin.

5. meta-Battler has a sister named Ange. Ushiromiya Battler also happens to have a sister named Ange. Again, I'm sure Ryukishi meant the identity "Ange" rather than the name. Following the train of thought from statement 3, we can conclude that there exists
(Ange) =/= Ange
NOTE: it is impossible for meta-Battler with the identity of Ushiromiya Battler to say, in red, that Ange is his sister. While that may be true according to my theory, biologically speaking, she still isn't related to him. Therefore, we have to conclude that the Ange of meta-Battler is a separate existence to the Ange of Ushiromiya Battler.

To clarify for both 3 and 5, both Ange and Battler believe themselves to be people they're not. And "people" doesn't necessarily have to be a person that existed, it could be a fictional identity created for convenience. A practical example of this would be to say that Person A loses his/her memories and receives the memories of Person B OR a Person X creates a past OF Person B for Person A. Person A may be able to say that he IS Person B, but won't have the same mother as Person B.

To summarize, meta-Battler is not the real Ushiromiya Battler, but he is still a blood relative of Kinzo. He has a sister with the identity Ange. Sometime before his game with Beato, he took on the identity of the real Battler. That's about all we know of meta-Battler, however, it's still a lot compared to what we know about the REAL Battler. So the real question is not who is meta-Battler but, rather, who is Ushiromiya Battler?
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Last edited by unconfirmed; 2009-07-16 at 16:53.
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Old 2009-07-16, 16:39   Link #2542
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shinndou View Post
Stray, let's suppose your theory about the "extension" regarding Battler being born before Asumu married (only gaining the Ushiromiya name after that) is "true". Why would Beato go through all the trouble of doing that? How much of a difference would it make?
I'm not sure if I follow... but the red itself denies the existence of a second Battler, and her blue calls him into question as the 'real' Battler. There's no place for him to exist, and so... he ceases to. She's not out to prove him as a second Battler. Her argument denies his existence altogether. It's a certain kill shot through and through.

Depends on your perspective from there I suppose. She could have been that discouraged over what happened 6 years ago, or it may have been her play to provoke Ange into the mix.

Quote:
That's why I think it's certainly more "convenient" to speculate that a real second Battler (whether it's a guy or a girl) exists. That way we could come up with theories regarding his potential "sin", it makes more sense afterall. Of course, we are not sure that Battler's sin is related to it, but I doubt Beato would throw such a hint randomly after questioning Battler.
Our Battler's sin or the other Battler's sin? Isn't the cast already big enough?!

Honestly, though, there's 14 people alive other that Rudolf and Kyrie (or himself, but you never know) that he could have been sinned against on that island, literally or metaphorically. My latest pet theory is that it's Kinzo, there's no clarification on what impact it had on him when Battler left the register. He could have not given a shit, or he could have seen it as what the witch gave him unraveling, and realized that there was no expense (13 lives) too great to revive the witch and came up with the epitaph. Of course, he's dead at the beginning of all the games.

Oh and don't forget the "Battler is the killer" theory. Maybe it doesn't directly point to Rudolf, but something Rudolf did to shame the family or incite a killer over it. Maybe it has to do with Ange. Maybe he felt up Shannon? I dunno. My point being, there's a million speculations that have nothing to do with another Battler.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Battler tried to say that he was born from Asumu, and he failed. That to me counts as a red truth.
There's just so much that's unclear as to how the red works... but that doesn't make it any less contradictory in red or blue.

Quote:
Honestly I only remember that is being said that Rudolf married Asumu because she was pregnant. I might be wrong, but I won't really believe this unless I see a quote from the game.
I'll look it up, I've tl;dr'ed enough for now. My big thing ATM is Beato's true intentions, as well as Battler's role in all this being that he's been assigned blame for everyone dying in red... that is one thing that can look completely different with a second "Battler" than with just one.
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Old 2009-07-16, 20:02   Link #2543
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what the heck.......kinzo is already dead from the start of each game??
and hell battler did some sin long time ago.

oh well, guess I am latecomer to this visual novel:P.
Just finished them all in hurry; this boggles my mind and I should may be just wait for answer episodes>.<
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Old 2009-07-16, 20:12   Link #2544
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Quote:
Originally Posted by metronome View Post
what the heck.......kinzo is already dead from the start of each game??
and hell battler did some sin long time ago.

oh well, guess I am latecomer to this visual novel:P.
Just finished them all in hurry; this boggles my mind and I should may be just wait for answer episodes>.<
Yes. Kinzo dies before October 4th 1986. When he dies is still the question, but it's before the 4th.

Which means every scene with Kinzo is basically a lie in some way. And that's quite a lot of scenes XD
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Old 2009-07-16, 20:42   Link #2545
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Originally Posted by Marion View Post
Yes. Kinzo dies before October 4th 1986. When he dies is still the question, but it's before the 4th.

Which means every scene with Kinzo is basically a lie in some way. And that's quite a lot of scenes XD
if we follow higurashi rules, it always means that one death leads to other deaths.
and the real killer that pull the string may not even have to interact with the other murderer to make the chaining murders happened.

kinzo would have been the real killer if we follow that rule, but hmm..., I need to assume that dead people stays dead and can not pull something like what that nurse have done in higurashi, then certainly Battler's previous sin that makes one people died is the trigger. I wonder what kind of sin it is. But I kinda have a feeling that he causes Asumu's death or may be something connected to it....

It will be funny if that kinzo has actually died even longer than we know, may be even got killed by Battler. and then these servants, and even natsuhi and krauss might covered it(the death of kinzo) up.

but then higurashi and umineko is different story, so well, the rules might not work.
but still I do believe at least one of the peoples on the island during that time(the game time) knows that kinzo has died before the game.

and well about Beato, I kinda feel that she is more to pitiful rather than evil. Guess she is really under pressure to play the game but yet she must play it; well it is understandable why she is screwing around lol.

Last edited by metronome; 2009-07-16 at 21:19.
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Old 2009-07-16, 21:55   Link #2546
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Ryukishi confirmed that Umineko has some rules like Higurashi does, but understanding these rules are a bit more difficult because we don't know everything that happens - only what we're shown.

And no, Kinzo is definietly dead before the game begins. Takano technically went missing, rather than dead in Higurashi. But before Beatrice's game starts Kinzo is already dead and he can't be a killer that way. The person pretending to be him can, but Beatrice also stated there were no more than 17 people on the island so if someone was impersonating him it would still be one of the 17 living people.
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Old 2009-07-16, 23:57   Link #2547
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Also remember that we still have the issue regarding the body. Polydactyly is surprisingly common and is never definitive proof of identity. Even though Kinzo is indeed dead, him being dead is not again proof that the incinerated body in the boiler room is his. The red confirms that Kinzo's been dead before the start of the conference but we don't know where it is, or how long he's been dead prior to the conference.

The biggest problem now is this question: did Kinzo die of natural causes or was he killed?

Assuming the body in the boiler room is his, one can speculate that he's been dead for a relatively short amount of time. We can no longer ascertain CoD with his body burned, but it's not realistic to think that he's been dead for a mere number of days.

If it isn't him, why did Krauss hide the issue? It's never really made clear his own intentions since it was overtaken by the murders, but the only clear motive is for him to consolidate his base of power as the new head before Kinzo's death is formally announced. Then again, he was killed in the games, which calls into question his relationship with the murders and even Kinzo's death.

Now if Kinzo was killed prior to the conference, Krauss as the person hiding his death would have known if Kinzo died by some other means. It might even be possible that Krauss himself killed Kinzo and is hiding it to agaon consolidate his base before proclaiming himself head. If it wasn't him, he'd have motive to hide the fact because a preemptive unnatural death for Kinzo would destroy his power base as successor. Whichever way Kinzo dies, Krauss would have tons of problems to keep himself in the running as head.
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Old 2009-07-17, 00:10   Link #2548
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Do we know if the red truth is truth for everyone that says it? The Battler talk switches who is saying what...does that matter? Could a truth said by a non-witch (or Ange) not be true, because it wasn't said by a witch?

Is it as simple as that there are two Battlers: the real one that in on the island in October of 1986 and the Meta one that is playing the game? Or is it much harder and complicated (like the real Battler is female and Meta is just an illusion)?

Or is Meta-Ange the real Battler's appearance (the 18 year old female Battler might look like that), but because of who she thinks she is, she's not Battler in Meta. Ange in 1998 is Ange.

So many possibilites.
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Old 2009-07-17, 00:29   Link #2549
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For those of you that are theorizing on Meta-Battler's identity:

Meta-Battler IS able to say "Ange is my little sister." Given that he can't say that Asumu is his mother despite being raised by her, cared for by her, etc. this means that it's not enough for the red text for him to think of Ange as a little sister: she IS his little sister, by blood.

This means that if you believe that Meta-Battler is a stranger hired by Rudolf or something along those lines, and that Beatrice simply refused to state that he was not Kinzo's grandson because she thought she could use it later, then you must also believe that of Ange. (They were discussing the six-year-old Ange when Battler was called to state this, NOT Ange-Beatrice.)

It also opens the question: given how picky the red text is about maternity (being raised until her death by a woman you believe to be your mother is apparently not good enough for red truth), isn't it a little surprising that Battler can say that Ange is his little sister rather than his half sister?
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Old 2009-07-17, 06:01   Link #2550
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Originally Posted by kaitwospirit View Post
Meta-Battler IS able to say "Ange is my little sister." Given that he can't say that Asumu is his mother despite being raised by her, cared for by her, etc. this means that it's not enough for the red text for him to think of Ange as a little sister: she IS his little sister, by blood.
I don't think so. What Battler failed to repeat is that he was born from Asumu, not that Asmu is her mother. This is very important, because then there is no way Asumu is his mother by blood (excluding c-section and the rest...).

However, just before saying that Battler is her brother, Ange said "It's about bounds, right?". Somebody can be your mother/sister without blood links. So nothing proves that Ange is her sister.
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Old 2009-07-17, 06:32   Link #2551
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Spoiler for Thoughts and theory about Battler's sin:
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Old 2009-07-17, 06:40   Link #2552
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Originally Posted by Chadauw View Post
I don't think so. What Battler failed to repeat is that he was born from Asumu, not that Asmu is her mother. This is very important, because then there is no way Asumu is his mother by blood (excluding c-section and the rest...).

However, just before saying that Battler is her brother, Ange said "It's about bounds, right?". Somebody can be your mother/sister without blood links. So nothing proves that Ange is her sister.
Well semantics-wise, the very least definition of brother-sister we can ascribe to Battler and Ange is that they were in the same family. This would at least prove that he had a stronger connection to the family than Beato's initial assertion of Battler being some con-man that Rudolph hired to strengthen his claim to the family succession.
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Old 2009-07-17, 06:46   Link #2553
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lady_Bernkastel View Post
Spoiler for Thoughts and theory about Battler's sin:
Incorrect. Beato never said that "true" battler died 6 years ago. We don't know his whereabouts or status (and it isn't even sure that his name is battler, just the kanji are the same).
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Old 2009-07-17, 06:50   Link #2554
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But then again it's been said twice in red that battler isn't Asumu's son.

I really don't know what to think. If it wasn't for one thing, I'd say that the truth is effective as long as the definition of the words you use matches with what your are thinking.

For example an adopted child could say in red that his stepmother was his mother, as long as his definition of "mother" is extended to family bonds unrelated by blood, but he wouldn't be able to say it if he was thinking of a biological mother.

This would matches with the fact that in previous episodes the red truth was often paired with a particular definition, like the definition of "closed room" and "trap".

This would also explain how it was possible for Beatrice to use the word "magic" and "golden land". It's possible if her definitions are different than the normal meaning.

But there's that one thing that makes this all impossible.

Battler says: Ushiromiya Battler was born from Ushiromiya Asumu.

He certainly wasn't thinking about an Ushiromiya Battler that wasn't himself. So how is this possible?
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Old 2009-07-17, 06:52   Link #2555
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Incorrect. Beato never said that "true" battler died 6 years ago. We don't know his whereabouts or status (and it isn't even sure that his name is battler, just the kanji are the same).
I was sure she said that ._. she...didn't? something like "you can't be him since he was already dead six years ago"
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Old 2009-07-17, 06:57   Link #2556
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Originally Posted by Lady_Bernkastel View Post
I was sure she said that ._. she...didn't? something like "you can't be him since he was already dead six years ago"
I'm pretty sure it wasn't to say that Battler died 6 years ago but to question whether meta Battler is the real Battler the family thinks he is because the last time most of everyone saw the him was 6 years prior, or 1980. To some extent it suggests that it may be possible meta Battler isn't the same Battler everyone knew 6 years ago.
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Old 2009-07-17, 07:15   Link #2557
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Here, found that part:

Spoiler for A bit large:


she did say it =O

umm but now that I see this... she didn't say he died six years ago, but was *already* dead...so...he could die before...
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Old 2009-07-17, 08:32   Link #2558
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I don't think Battler's sin was a big one. It's something he'd forgotten about, and maybe never realized was a sin in the first place. I think it's probably closer to K1's sin in Watanagashi-hen; something minor that ultimately plants the seeds for later tragedy.

Going on that:
Spoiler:


(Side comment: I have to move my Umineko notes off Geocities before it closes. Google Sites doesn't allow uploading HTML; everything has to be done through their composer. Is there another free webhost?)
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Old 2009-07-17, 09:17   Link #2559
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Originally Posted by Lady_Bernkastel View Post
she did say it =O
Not in red, though.
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Old 2009-07-17, 09:26   Link #2560
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Final Mystery

Hey there, up until now I've been lurking and reading the interesting bits of speculation, but I had some interesting ideas to post in regards to the final mystery from Episode 4. Sorry if this is a little long!

Spoiler for Basic Ideas and Assumptions:


Spoiler for More detailed theory:


Well, a lot of it is just wild guessing, but I find it interesting and would be curious to hear what you think.
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