AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Retired > Umineko

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2009-08-02, 18:10   Link #3021
Kaisos Erranon
Homo Ludens
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
As for the proof. The red truth works as proof in this context. Provided Beatrice won't be able to deny Battler theories, that will prove Battler's theories. She might let some wacky theories pass for her strategy purposes, but ultimately she wants Battler to find the truth until then she won't let Battler win. Even if she did Lambda wouldn't allow her to do so. So a proof is bound to come in the end. If neither magic nor human theory is proven, such in the case of a braun tube unopened, then the game will not reach a solution and Lambda will win. But you know Lambda can't win. "This is not endless eight" So a proof will come, the brain tube will be opened, and when that happens only one theory will survive. This is consistent with the schroedinger cat theory.
But I don't want Bern to win either.

I really see Bern turning into an antagonist. If you look at some of the underlying messages, the reason Bern is so cruel is because she was trapped in a similar situation to Battler. (Meta-Battler isn't going home either.)

The only solution I can see is Meta-Battler and Battler reuniting somehow, to get the happy ending Bern couldn't. Bern probably won't like that.

To put it simply, there has to be a solution where Battler wins and Bern doesn't.
__________________
Kaisos Erranon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-08-02, 18:10   Link #3022
Ssol
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Battler simply has to come up with a simple and elegant reason as to why witches cannot exist, and why humans are behind the murders.

I'm starting have doubts he can do this.
Battler doesn't have to prove that witches cannot exist he just has to show that is no proof that witches do exist.

At that point, obviously, some humans/accidents/traps are the reasons for the murders.
Ssol is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-08-02, 18:13   Link #3023
Kaisos Erranon
Homo Ludens
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ssol View Post
Battler doesn't have to prove that witches cannot exist he just has to show that is no proof that witches do exist.
Devil's. Proof.

There is no proof that witches don't exist.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ssol View Post
At that point, obviously, some humans/accidents/traps are the reasons for the murders.
What, with the small bombs?

There has got to be a better solution than that. There has to be ONE solution, not a miraculous succession of accidents and traps. That's even less likely than the existence of witches.
__________________
Kaisos Erranon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-08-02, 18:14   Link #3024
ghost_zero5
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
@Ssol:
As long as he doesn't proof that NO WITCH was responsible for the murders, it is like before opening schroedinger's cat box.
Of course, even if he does proof that, he doesn't proof that witches themselves don't exist. Here you can use the "Devil's Proof" if you want but you don't even have too.

@Kaisos Erranon:
I somehow have troubles to tell if you are pro or contra witches in Umineko and to what extent.
ghost_zero5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-08-02, 18:16   Link #3025
sento
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
What, with the small bombs?

There has got to be a better solution than that. There has to be ONE solution, not a miraculous succession of accidents and traps. That's even less likely than the existence of witches.
I agree with you here. That's not the solution.

That's why I want to think about the hints we have about the culprit before.

But even so, I get why Battler did that in EP4 Tea Party. Beato deprived him of the 18th person, so he went rampage with broken logic to force her to use red... But seems that she wanted to die..
sento is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-08-02, 18:19   Link #3026
Kaisos Erranon
Homo Ludens
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by ghost_zero5 View Post
I somehow have troubles to tell if you are pro or contra witches in Umineko and to what extent.
I'm pro-witches, but like I said there's bound to be a real-world solution.

Even if it's not true, Battler coming up with it will MAKE it true. That's how the Umineko universe works.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sento View Post
That's why I want to think about the hints we have about the culprit before the murders.
Given the insight we have into practically everyone, the only person I can really see being the culprit at this point (other than Suit Beatrice)... is Nanjo.

Maybe he sewed small bombs into everyone's head?

(That was a joke, for those people who don't get jokes.)
__________________
Kaisos Erranon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-08-02, 18:20   Link #3027
ghost_zero5
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Well: You might could explain everything by the "usage" of a virus/biochemical weapon Well that way no one would have to be inside the rooms and actually no one would even have to be near them which would mean that practically everybody could have done so.

Btw. that would also kinda "explain" the last riddle.

But actually, it might be hard to find a reason why the heads were half-gone or something like this, so it is kinda unlikely - and I don't think this is how everything will be explained - but because of the Devil's Proof not impossible

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
I'm pro-witches, but like I said there's bound to be a real-world solution.

Even if it's not true, Battler coming up with it will MAKE it true. That's how the Umineko universe works.
Well. OK but that only means for Rokkenjima and the murder case but not for the "outside" world. So witches would still exist, maybe even at Rokkenjima, but just what happened at Rokkenjima wouldn't be done by witches because however this will end, I think that witches themselves will exist in the end in Umineko. However, I think that Rokkenjima was done by a human though but as said that doesn't meant that I would deny that witches themselves exist in Umineko.
ghost_zero5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-08-02, 18:22   Link #3028
Kaisos Erranon
Homo Ludens
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by ghost_zero5 View Post
Well: You might could explain everything by the "usage" of a virus/biochemical weapon Well that way no one would have to be inside the rooms and actually no one would even have to be near them which would mean that practically everybody could have done so.

Btw. that would also kinda "explain" the last riddle.
Beatrice's real-world form being a virus/bioweapon WOULD make sense, considering.

Everything in the meta-world needs a vessel, right?

Oh, oh, what about this:

It's a bioweapon that everyone hallucinates as butterflies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ghost_zero5 View Post
But actually, it might be hard to find a reason why the heads were half-gone or something like this
Like I said, small bombs.
__________________
Kaisos Erranon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-08-02, 18:22   Link #3029
sento
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Given the insight we have into practically everyone, the only person I can really see being the culprit at this point (other than Suit Beatrice)... is Nanjo.

Maybe he sewed small bombs into everyone's head?

(That was a joke for those people who don't get jokes.)
Well, I gave you a logical, fitting and possible culprit with the stuff we have right?

But yeah, I get your point.
sento is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-08-02, 18:24   Link #3030
Ssol
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Given the insight we have into practically everyone, the only person I can really see being the culprit at this point (other than Suit Beatrice)... is Nanjo.

Maybe he sewed small bombs into everyone's head?

(That was a joke for those people who don't get jokes.)
The other servants also were less than truthful and gave the impression that Kinzo was still alive. Could you give your insight as to why Nanjo is especially suspicious?
Ssol is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-08-02, 18:25   Link #3031
Kaisos Erranon
Homo Ludens
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by sento View Post
Well, I gave you a logical, fitting and possible culprit with the stuff we have right?
Suit-Beatrice being someone Battler knew from 6 years ago?

That'd fit, but again the only person it could really be is Jessica, and we know she doesn't have multiple personalities... I dunno.
__________________
Kaisos Erranon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-08-02, 18:26   Link #3032
Jan-Poo
別にいいけど
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ssol View Post
Battler doesn't have to prove that witches cannot exist he just has to show that is no proof that witches do exist.

At that point, obviously, some humans/accidents/traps are the reasons for the murders.
Exactly. When Battler does that he wins. He doesn't need that witches and magic do not exist in any kind of places or dimensions.

The existence of witches outside the closed space of Rokkenjima is not really relevant to me. I have no problem accepting that, but I also have no problem if they all turn out to be fake.

Whatever is the truth, as long as they have no actual influence on the events of Rokkenjima it's fine.

Quote:
But I don't want Bern to win either
The problem is, as of things are now, If Batter wins, Bern wins. There's no way one can win and the other lose.

At the same time, the only way for both lambda and Bern to lose is for Beatrice to win. However, Beatrice herself doesn't want that. I think it's clear now that she wants to lose. So if Battler loses, there wouldn't be any real winner, only losers.
BAD END.

Quote:
To put it simply, there has to be a solution where Battler wins and Bern doesn't.
Why there has to be? I really can't see why. And even if she doesn't win, as long as she doesn't lose to Lambda she wouldn't really care. I think you are really misjudging Bern.
__________________

Jan-Poo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-08-02, 18:27   Link #3033
ghost_zero5
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Like I said, small bombs.
Well but a bioweapon that does something like this to the heads is quite strange. Actually, I don't know of any but of course, that doesn't mean it couldn't be created.
After all IIRC there exists diseases that can cause at least the skin to "disappear".
However, I have not a vast knowledge about diseases so...
ghost_zero5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-08-02, 18:27   Link #3034
sento
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Suit-Beatrice being someone Battler knew from 6 years ago?

That'd fit, but again the only person it could really be is Jessica, and we know she doesn't have multiple personalities... I dunno.
Shannon too...

Or Ryuukishi can pull "non-fair" stuff and give us a new character. He did it already with Hanyuu...

Who knows.
sento is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-08-02, 18:29   Link #3035
ghost_zero5
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Whatever is the truth, as long as they have no actual influence on the events of Rokkenjima it's fine.
You mean regarding the murders?
Because they still could have some kind of influence in "helping" to solve the mystery behind what happened. However, it is kinda hard to explain four different "endings" without any "magical help".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Why there has to be? I really can't see why. And even if she doesn't win, as long as she doesn't lose to Lambda she wouldn't really care. I think you are really misjudging Bern.
But Bern started that game before Lambda was there. So she actually also must have a reason for why she would like Beato to loose.
ghost_zero5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-08-02, 18:30   Link #3036
sento
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by ghost_zero5 View Post
However, it is kinda hard to explain four different "endings" without any "magical help".
The letters in the bottles.
sento is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-08-02, 18:31   Link #3037
Kaisos Erranon
Homo Ludens
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ssol View Post
The other servants also were less than truthful and gave the impression that Kinzo was still alive. Could you give your insight as to why Nanjo is especially suspicious?
From my viewpoint, since I don't discount magic scenes, the Kinzo we see is either a homunculus furniture clone, or an impostor. Probably the latter in Ep4, given the insane way he acts.

So the only reason I consider Nanjo suspicious is because we know nothing about him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Whatever is the truth, as long as they have no actual influence on the events of Rokkenjima it's fine.
I don't think I'll even understand this kind of Anti-Fantasy. How can you enjoy a story if you're ignoring next to all of it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Why there has to be? I really can't see why. And even if she doesn't win, as long as she doesn't lose to Lambda she wouldn't really care. I think you are really misjudging Bern.
Because I think the game is setting her up as an antagonist. You don't. 'So let's agree to disagree'.

Plus, Ep5 is called "End of the Golden Witch". That has to mean something.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sento View Post
Shannon too...

Or Ryuukishi can pull "non-fair" stuff and give us a new character. He did it already with Hanyuu...
There are only 17 humans on the island though, right?

If she's human, and we know she is because Real-Battler saw her, then she'd have to be either Jessica, or, yes, Shannon.

She acts a hell of a lot more like Jessica though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sento View Post
The letters in the bottles.
That's relying on information from 1998, which from an Anti-Fantasy standpoint you really can't do.
__________________
Kaisos Erranon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-08-02, 18:35   Link #3038
ghost_zero5
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by sento View Post
The letters in the bottles.
Though that is true, it is already strange that there are different letters. Not to mention that this is not the only problem here. What about Battler thinking to be in the Meta-World? Is he dreaming, hallucinating, ..? All of those answers are kinda lame.

Furthermore, I have to agree with "Kaisos Erranon" I am not to sure if I could accept a complete non-magical theory. I actually want one regarding the murders but a complete non-magical theory for everything would be like denying 90% of the whole VN. I am not sure if I could accept that one.
Also what he said regarding the letters and 1998 and Anti-Fantasy is also true. That information can only exist, if magic exists.

Also, if that were the case the whole discussion regarding Lambda and Bern is senseless as they wouldn't exist anyway.
ghost_zero5 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-08-02, 18:37   Link #3039
Kaisos Erranon
Homo Ludens
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by ghost_zero5 View Post
Furthermore, I have to agree with "Kaisos Erranon" I am not to sure if I could accept a complete non-magical theory. I actually want one regarding the murders but a complete non-magical theory for everything would be like denying 90% of the whole VN. I am not sure if I could accept that one.

Also, if that were the case the whole discussion regarding Lambda and Bern is senseless as they wouldn't exist anyway.
And this is why I consider Anti-Fantasy stupid when not being used to figure out how Battler will explain everything.

Kanon's Ep4 death tips suggest that we're supposed to unify both theories, I think.
__________________
Kaisos Erranon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-08-02, 18:37   Link #3040
sento
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
I don't think I'll even understand Anti-Fantasy. How can you enjoy a story if you're ignoring next to all of it?
Ryuukishi challenge, find the truth, etc...

Even so, I never labeled the magic scenes as utter crap. I see them as useful events with clues inside. As Anti-mystery vs. Anti-fantasy text said, you need to use both. I see them covering the truth, but not as complete lies.
sento is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:59.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.