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Old 2009-08-02, 19:40   Link #3061
ghost_zero5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Which I would describe as magic for the purposes of this story due to the whole "sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic" thing.
Actually, I would have said it in the opposite direction: Any magic is just sufficiently advanced technology
Furthermore, in theory you might not even NEED a machine for creating a time loop.
It could be something like a "natural disaster" that happens every million years or something like this
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Old 2009-08-02, 19:55   Link #3062
Ithekro
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It isn't so much that satelite technology isn't up to it, it is just that all the satelites tha are needed weren't up yet. Remember, 1986. That was the year the space shuttle Challenger blew up carrying one of the first GPS satelites.

As to the idea of a bio-weapon...if one wanted to stick a piece of Higurashi into this...Hinamizawa Syndrome was being researched to produce a bio-weapon...could it be that in three years time someone decided to test the results of that project on an isolated island?

That is speculation at best, and that there was a survivor once means that either one can become immune, or can at least get out of range of the influence. That would make some sense if the island were still infected in 1998 and everyone that goes there dies (depending on exposure time).

It would also give a nice reason for a cover up, much like Hinamizawa and the "natural gassing of the town".
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Last edited by Klashikari; 2009-08-02 at 20:22. Reason: DO NOT mention episode 5 element!
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Old 2009-08-02, 20:25   Link #3063
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
As to the idea of a bio-weapon...if one wanted to stick a piece of Higurashi into this...Hinamizawa Syndrome was being researched to produce a bio-weapon...could it be that in three years time someone decided to test the results of that project on an isolated island?


It would also give a nice reason for a cover up, much like Hinamizawa and the "natural gassing of the town".
In Episode 1, Battler refered to Higurashi as a novel, a doujin

Quote:
`...Just like the words of the main character's mother in a novel I read recently called "Higurashi no naku koro ni
Unless Higurashi was based on the events of Hinamizawa or we can establish that Umineko takes place in the Higurashi universe, that is very unlikely. And you would also be forgetting Battler's sin, which is the motive of the crime, according to Beatrice.
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Old 2009-08-02, 20:33   Link #3064
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Well ... I think that's just Ryukishi being weird and meta. And if we just had the presence of Bernkastel, you could say that they might not be connected, but the fact that we also have Okonogi as a connecting character makes that a little unlikely. Most likely, some form of the story of Higurashi took place in the universes of Umineko, but which one happened we don't know.
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Old 2009-08-02, 21:12   Link #3065
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Originally Posted by ghost_zero5 View Post
But Bern started that game before Lambda was there. So she actually also must have a reason for why she would like Beato to loose.
Ah no, that's not true. Lambda started the game. She knew Bern would be attracted by that. You might have been confused because at the start she doesn't appear and it looks like Beatrice was setting up the scene. But then you learn the truth. Beatrice is just lambda's pawn. In other words Lambda is behind this game.

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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
I don't think I'll even understand this kind of Anti-Fantasy. How can you enjoy a story if you're ignoring next to all of it?
You are wrong. I'm not ignoring it at all. I quite enjoy seeing through the lies of the magic and convert it into real facts. For example you might look at Beatrice VS Virgilia battle scene as some sort of epic magic battle, but what I see is an overdramatized chess match.

Aren't you the one who isn't enjoying the game, because instead of trying to solve the puzzle you just look at it? :P

Anyway you should at least recognize that Beatrice's lies aren't consistent. She first said that Natsuhi killed herself, then she said another one did it. She made Battler see Kinzo killing everyone summoning rabbits, and then she said he was dead all along. Beato claims witches aren't human, Eva Beatrice claims she is a human with magic powers. And those are just a few examples.
Beatrice is lying. Why so? You don't need to lie if you are right. And why would Beatrice says that it is a game where she can't possibly win? If everything was done by a witch wouldn't be very easy to win? wouldn't it be impossible for Battler to win?
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Old 2009-08-02, 22:12   Link #3066
Ithekro
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Isn't it possible that Beatrice's idea of things and Eva-Beatrice's idea of things are not necessarily the same thing. One's idea of what a person is could be different from the other. Also how do we know if Eve-Beatrice's red truths are really true?

Eva-Beatrice, being from Eva, might consider all the servents people. However do we know if Beatrice considers them to be people? Furnature that doesn't think they are people might not thing other furnature are people, thus would not count to any limit on the number of people on the island.

Also, why would Eva (in either form), know what is going on if she is breaking a Rule? If there is no culprit in her version, than it stands to reason that her information might not be all that accurate outside of what Eva woud have experianced, which wouldn't be all that much more than Battler experianced, and he's in the dark, so to speak.
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Old 2009-08-03, 01:25   Link #3067
Kaisos Erranon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
You are wrong. I'm not ignoring it at all. I quite enjoy seeing through the lies of the magic and convert it into real facts. For example you might look at Beatrice VS Virgilia battle scene as some sort of epic magic battle, but what I see is an overdramatized chess match.

Aren't you the one who isn't enjoying the game, because instead of trying to solve the puzzle you just look at it? :P
...What if I just want to read a nice story...? And... did you just tell me I wasn't enjoying the game?

That's... that's... I don't even have WORDS for that, I'm sorry.

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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Anyway you should at least recognize that Beatrice's lies aren't consistent. She first said that Natsuhi killed herself, then she said another one did it. She made Battler see Kinzo killing everyone summoning rabbits, and then she said he was dead all along. Beato claims witches aren't human, Eva Beatrice claims she is a human with magic powers. And those are just a few examples.
Beatrice is lying. Why so? You don't need to lie if you are right. And why would Beatrice says that it is a game where she can't possibly win? If everything was done by a witch wouldn't be very easy to win? wouldn't it be impossible for Battler to win?
TWO.

There are always TWO explanations. BOTH are right. BOTH are valid. That is how this universe works. There are TWO worlds: real and meta, and both sets of events are occurring at the same time.

Beatrice can't win because... we don't know why yet.

God I need more support here.

(And I think it's fairly obvious that that isn't Kinzo. Goldsmith acts nothing like the Kinzo we see in every other arc. Anti-Mystery would say that someone took his place after he died, and it was a different someone in Ep4.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
Also how do we know if Eve-Beatrice's red truths are really true?
Good question. Did she say that she has the power to speak the truth in red, in red?
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Old 2009-08-03, 03:17   Link #3068
ghost_zero5
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Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
It isn't so much that satelite technology isn't up to it, it is just that all the satelites tha are needed weren't up yet. Remember, 1986. That was the year the space shuttle Challenger blew up carrying one of the first GPS satelites.
Well, satellites aren't up to it either. After all satellites need a line of sight. If the storm is strong enough that isn't possible.
Have you ever tried to watch satellite TV if the storm was strong enough?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Ah no, that's not true. Lambda started the game. She knew Bern would be attracted by that. You might have been confused because at the start she doesn't appear and it looks like Beatrice was setting up the scene. But then you learn the truth. Beatrice is just lambda's pawn. In other words Lambda is behind this game.
Actually, I remember that Lambda shows up and talks about his. However, from what I understood Beato was still the one who started that game on its own and Lambda got attracted because of Bern.
In any case: Bern WAS attracted BEFORE she knew that Lambda would be in the game. At least that's what Bern's reaction tells us, once she finds out about Lambda but of course, she could only have pretended to not know.
And the statement I was replying to requires only that much "information".

EDIT: Changed at least one grammar mistake. I guess there are still some though but that one was too "serious" for me to ignore it

Last edited by ghost_zero5; 2009-08-03 at 03:44.
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Old 2009-08-03, 05:03   Link #3069
Antera Caramichael
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There was a secret TIPS given by Ryukishi some time ago, which is a letter from Bern to the player. In this one, she explain the XYZ rules of the world after being invited in it by LAMBDA, who told her that this game was impossible to solve even for her.
Moreover, in another one, Lambda diary, we learn how Takano and Béatrice gained their powers by Lambda realising their wishes. So I think that it is pretty clear that Lambda is behind everything...
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Old 2009-08-03, 05:52   Link #3070
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http://community.livejournal.com/witchhunters/6828.html

Nice clues here. And seems that the whole "look for the reasons behind the culprit" is the way after all...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
That's relying on information from 1998, which from an Anti-Fantasy standpoint you really can't do.
Why not? 1998 was a mystery setting to give you hints outside the board.

Anti-Fantasy is not about negate all the info we have, you're pretty wrong with that. As I already said, magic scenes are full of hints about the mystery. In Umineko, magic is a cover to mystery, a new truth based in the other one. Even Beatrice calls it "magic corrosion".

Of course that going "all the magic scenes are shit" lead you to nowhere, but that's a given.
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Old 2009-08-03, 05:59   Link #3071
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by sento View Post
Anti-Fantasy is not about negate all the info we have, you're pretty wrong with that. As I already said, magic scenes are full of hints about the mystery. In Umineko, magic is a cover to mystery, a new truth based in the other one. Even Beatrice calls it "magic corrosion".

I think that you're misunderstanding something about this story. Of course that going "all the magic scenes are shit" lead you to nowhere, but that's a given.
But I believe in magic.

I don't like looking at the magic scenes in the game as an elaborate lie filled with hints about the actual truth. It makes me extremely uncomfortable and makes me feel like I've wasted my time playing the game.

In other words, your viewpoint makes me extremely angry.

It's nothing personal. I'd just rather take cool and touching stuff at face value rather than nitpick through it. In other words, I'm trying to enjoy the story for the story.
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Old 2009-08-03, 06:08   Link #3072
sento
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
But I believe in magic.

I don't like looking at the magic scenes in the game as an elaborate lie filled with hints about the actual truth. It makes me extremely uncomfortable and makes me feel like I've wasted my time playing the game.

In other words, your viewpoint makes me extremely angry.

It's nothing personal. I'd just rather take cool and touching stuff at face value rather than nitpick through it.
But it's not only my viewpoint, it's the direction that the whole story is taking.

The whole "you can't trust what you're seeing" is Ryuukishi's trademark. And we even get the whole "magic corrosion" thing. Beato said it, as far the game advances, fantasy gains terrain to mystery. Both are the same truth, only flavourished in a different manner.

Basically, then you're not different from the Anti-Fantasy radicals who say that the magic scenes are utter crap. Umineko is a mystery story after all.
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Old 2009-08-03, 06:11   Link #3073
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by sento View Post
Basically, then you're not different from the Anti-Fantasy radicals who say that the magic scenes are utter crap.
Your viewpoint still says that the character development that happens in the magic scenes is nonexistent.

I don't like that.

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Originally Posted by sento View Post
Beato said it, as far the game advances, fantasy gains terrain to mystery. Both are the same truth, only flavourished in a different manner.
This is kind of what I've been saying all day. Why are we even arguing?
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Old 2009-08-03, 06:16   Link #3074
MeoTwister5
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Do you believe in magic in a young girl's heart
How the music can free her, whenever it starts
And it's magic, if the music is groovy
It makes you feel happy like an old-time movie
I'll tell you about the magic, and it'll free your soul
But it's like trying to tell a stranger 'bout rock and roll
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Old 2009-08-03, 06:17   Link #3075
sento
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Your viewpoint still says that the character development that happens in the magic scenes is nonexistent.

I don't like that.
Why? I never said that.

If we're talking about "both being the same truth, flavourished in a different manner", technically the character development happens in both.

That if Ryuukishi is not trolling us and showing what he want to show, as he did with Watanagashi/Meakashi... He LOVES that after all.
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Old 2009-08-03, 06:22   Link #3076
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by MeoTwister5 View Post
Do you believe in magic in a young girl's heart
How the music can free her, whenever it starts
And it's magic, if the music is groovy
It makes you feel happy like an old-time movie
I'll tell you about the magic, and it'll free your soul
But it's like trying to tell a stranger 'bout rock and roll
...

Quote:
Originally Posted by sento View Post
Why? I never said that.

If we're talking about "both being the same truth, flavourished in a different manner", technically the character development happens in both.
...You have a point. I apologize profusely.

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Originally Posted by sento View Post
That if Ryuukishi is not trolling us and showing what he want to show, as he did with Watanagashi/Meakashi... He LOVES that after all.
He certainly does... goddamn end of Ep3.
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Old 2009-08-03, 06:25   Link #3077
MeoTwister5
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id point out the paralelelismss betwen that song and Beato but I'm too drunk rigt now. Maybe later when i puke and rink some water.
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Old 2009-08-03, 06:30   Link #3078
Kaisos Erranon
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id point out the paralelelismss betwen that song and Beato but I'm too drunk rigt now. Maybe later when i puke and rink some water.
...

...

...Sure, I'd love to hear it.
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Old 2009-08-03, 07:08   Link #3079
Jan-Poo
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
...What if I just want to read a nice story...?
Because that's not the way it is supposed to be enjoyed. Ryukishi is enforcing people to speculate in every possible way. Apart from the various countless hints in the story that enforce you to follow the attempt of the characters to explain everything with human tricks, Ryukishi himself is telling us to do so in his interviews. This is why Ryukishi consider it a "game" even though you have 0 interaction. This is a "game" in the same way a riddle book is. It is the same as if you bought a book of riddles like the one Maria's got, and instead of trying to solve the riddles you just find fun to read the "stories" of all those sheeps and wolves.

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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
And... did you just tell me I wasn't enjoying the game?

That's... that's... I don't even have WORDS for that, I'm sorry.
Weren't you the one who told me that in the first place? And I'm like one of the most prolific posters in this board. I'm not really offended, but you shouldn't either.
Anyway to reiterate, you are enjoying the story, but you are not enjoying the game. If you aren't trying to explain everything with human tricks you aren't playing.

Well it's up to you frankly. If you only want to enjoy the story you can do that. It's not like it is completely wrong. It is in fact a good story. But how exactly are you playing?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
TWO.

There are always TWO explanations. BOTH are right. BOTH are valid. That is how this universe works. There are TWO worlds: real and meta, and both sets of events are occurring at the same time.

Beatrice can't win because... we don't know why yet.

God I need more support here.

(And I think it's fairly obvious that that isn't Kinzo. Goldsmith acts nothing like the Kinzo we see in every other arc. Anti-Mystery would say that someone took his place after he died, and it was a different someone in Ep4.)
I think you fail to see the connection with the quantum physic theory. Ryukishi himself made that comparison so I have no reason to think it works differently. According to the quantum physic the state of a wave function can have multiple nature until it is observed. So two different states exists at the same time.
HOWEVER, once the wave function is observed, the wave function collapses in a single reality. That is how it works. No matter how many realities exist at a certain time, in the end when you observe it only one exists and only one is valid.
The cat will not be both alive and dead forever. Once you open the box, he will be either alive or dead.
You cannot think that the box in this story will be forever closed. It will open at one point, and when that happens there will be only ONE reality.

If you think the two realities will still exist after that, it is the same as to say that the schroedinger cat comparison is a sham.



Quote:
Good question. Did she say that she has the power to speak the truth in red, in red?
Oh yes she did. But how does that prove anything?


Quote:
Originally Posted by ghost_zero5 View Post
Actually, I remember that Lambda shows up and talks about his. However, from what I understood Beato was still the one who started that game on its own and Lambda got attracted because of Bern.
In any case: Bern WAS attracted BEFORE she knew that Lambda would be in the game. At least that's what Bern's reaction tells us, once she finds out about Lambda but of course, she could only have pretended to not know.
And the statement I was replying to requires only that much "information".

EDIT: Changed at least one grammar mistake. I guess there are still some though but that one was too "serious" for me to ignore it

I think you misinterpreted those events, anyway as Antera Caramichael pointed out, it is confirmed that Lambda initiated this game.
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Old 2009-08-03, 10:46   Link #3080
momobunny
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Why the long discussion? There's not just ONE way to enjoy Umineko. Not everybody wants to think of theories and find ways to solve the mystery, some just want to sit back and enjoy the story. And people who do like to theorize aren't necessarily ignoring all of the magical elements. There's no right or wrong way to go about this so I don't see why it deserves this type of back and forth discussion.
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