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Old 2009-08-03, 11:54   Link #3081
paraalso
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
If you think the two realities will still exist after that, it is the same as to say that the schroedinger cat comparison is a sham.
The Schrödinger's cat doesn't really work completely that way though. That way of looking it at it is only one intepretation called the Copenhagen interpretation. There is also another very common interpretation called the many-worlds interpretation. This is a very simplified description, but with the Copenhagen interpretation the box collapses into one reality, either dead or alive. With the many-worlds opening the box splits into 2 universes that can't interact with each other. In one universe the cat is alive, in the other the cat is dead.

Overall quantum mechanics is far more confusing than Umineko, and I don't think it serves very well as a basis for arguing about things.


Personally I see the game board world as being completely anti-fantasy. I seek to explain everything within the events of the Rokkenjima Mass Murder incident through mystery. That doesn't mean I deny the existence of meta-world, the existence of the world of 1998, or the 1998 Ange as "real". I find the "That never happened" way of ignoring what you want an uninteresting way of looking at the game. You want to see Rosa as a good mother? Simply deny that any of the scenes with Rosa abusing Maria ever happened, and you're good to go. It has this kind of potential for abuse. I only rarely see it from even the most extreme anti-fantasy advocates thankfully.

I also view the meta-world characters like Bern and Lambda as real entities. They simply don't have anything to do with the game board incidents, aside from their interaction with Beatrice and meta-Battler in the meta-world. The magic scenes shown on the game board are a show set up by Beatrice for misdirecting Battler, though they can also hide a clue to the truth of the mystery. It seems clear to me that what Battler and Beatrice are fighting over is whether magic exists on the gameboard, and whether magic had anything to do with the incidents of the 4th and the 5th of October in Battler's original world, not whether magic exists anywhere.
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Old 2009-08-03, 13:54   Link #3082
ghost_zero5
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I agree with "paraalso" regarding the quantuum things.
Actually, I also agree with the rest of him. The "game world" I definitely view as being anti-fantasy. However, I think that fantasy outside of it could still be there in Umineko.

Also if that is the case and you observed the truth, you only observed the truth of the mass murder incident but not about the rest of the world (at least that is what will probably happen, I doubt that Battler will also proof that witches don't exist outside the "game world").

@Jan-Poo:
However, I want to add that you made one other mistake. You said that the wave function has two different states. That is acutally wrong. The wave function is a description to describe the possibility of the system being in two different states. Once you measure (for example mathematical you could use a projection operator) you get a definite state.
BUT as "paraalso" said there is also the Multiverse theory. Actually, there are even some other theories but those are probably the most common.
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Old 2009-08-03, 13:56   Link #3083
Jan-Poo
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Originally Posted by paraalso View Post
The Schrödinger's cat doesn't really work completely that way though. That way of looking it at it is only one intepretation called the Copenhagen interpretation. There is also another very common interpretation called the many-worlds interpretation. This is a very simplified description, but with the Copenhagen interpretation the box collapses into one reality, either dead or alive. With the many-worlds opening the box splits into 2 universes that can't interact with each other. In one universe the cat is alive, in the other the cat is dead.
The many-worlds interpretation is a lot less popular outside science fiction books. Plus Virgilia clearly stated that once you open the box you learn the truth which points to the conclusion that Ryukishi is following the copenhagen interpretation when talking about the schroedinger's cat.
Anyway... are you prepared to see the story split in two different universes with two different endings? If not even with the multi-world interpretation only one outcome will be shown.
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Old 2009-08-03, 13:58   Link #3084
ghost_zero5
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Actually I think the multiverse theory is being more popular nowadays than the other one. At least for various aspects. Of course, for "normal" quantum theory the Kopenhagen is still the one used BUT that one is outdated nowadays in at least one point IIRC.

However, you are probably right here BUT opening the Cat Box for the mass murder incident, doesn't open the box regarding magic outside that incident. Especially, the Meta-World and such thigns - not to mention that explaining those scenes (what happens in the Meta-World) completely, will be kinda hard anyway - of course, it wouldn't be impossible but...
However, even if you open the box regarding the Meta-World, you still haven't opened it for the rest of the world and that shouldn't be able (even in the game).
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Old 2009-08-03, 14:01   Link #3085
Jan-Poo
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well yes of course. If it did it would risk to erase even Lambda and Bern and I doubt Ryukishi is going to "kill" them... or is he..? °°;
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Old 2009-08-03, 14:01   Link #3086
Leinne
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Hi this is my first time posting in he forum, but I've read it for quite a long time and I decided to post this since no one has. It's Gohda's book with some unknown information in the novels about his past and the legend of Beato.

Spoiler for Notes from a certain cook:
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Old 2009-08-03, 14:02   Link #3087
ghost_zero5
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
well yes of course. If it did it would risk to erase even Lambda and Bern and I doubt Ryukishi is going to "kill" them... or is he..? °°;
To erase them Battler would have to proof that in the world itself no magic can't exist but actually, we can't even proof that in our world.
However, Battler might be able to remove Bern as she more or less started existing after Higurashi but that is also unlikely.

Btw. I wonder what Meta-Battler will be in the end, will he also turn into a "witch"?

Btw.2: A bit off-topic but as you mentioned this could not only be considered a VN but also a game because of the clues and so you have to gather. I wonder how exactly they will do this for the future episodes (mainly the answer arcs) in the Anime because the Anime is more like story-telling, without the game part.
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Old 2009-08-03, 14:10   Link #3088
Ssol
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Originally Posted by ghost_zero5 View Post
Btw. I wonder what Meta-Battler will be in the end, will he also turn into a "witch"?
When talking about Battler's sin Beatrice used the red text:

Six years ago for me, no person called Beatrice existed.
-Why did she add the "for me" part? She could have just said six years ago. Since we don't know how time affects this being who has lived 1000 years through time loops I argue that this could be ANY point in time.

The sin I am now demanding that you remember is not between Ushiromiya Battler and Beatrice.
-From other red texts it's pretty clear that there is more than one person who used/is using the name Ushiromiya Battler. So actually this statement means NOTHING because it could be applied to any Ushiromiya Battler.

Ushiromiya Battler has a sin.
Because of your sin, people die.
Due to your sin, a great many humans on this island die. No one escapes, all die.

-So the other red text, all the other normal text Beatrice used, and the way she reacted to Battler not knowing the sin may be important but could just as probably have no importance. These three lines are the only real clues we have.
-The sin may or may not be in reference to what happens between Oct4 1986 and Oct6 1986
-This series of red text does not apply to game 3 since Eva lives. Then which games does it apply to? Mabye just game 4?

Theory:
Ushiromiya Battler is the main culprit behind most of the crimes but at same is not the same Battler we see interacting with Maria/Jessica/George/etc. The red texts used when referencing Ushiromiya Battler have been counting both people as one person! Thus creating person 17X, the culprit! In the end the Battler may discover all the tricks used by Ushiromiya Battler to make it look like Beatrice did the crimes but he will have no explanation for who he is himself.
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Old 2009-08-03, 14:14   Link #3089
ClockWorkAngel
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I'm sorry to burst you bubble but,

There are no more than 17 people on the island.

Unless someone amongst the 17 is dead, there can be no 18th person. However it is possible if BATTLER is working against them outside of the island.
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Old 2009-08-03, 14:16   Link #3090
Ssol
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Originally Posted by ClockWorkAngel View Post
I'm sorry to burst you bubble but,

There are no more than 17 people on the island.

Unless someone amongst the 17 is dead, there can be no 18th person. However it is possible if BATTLER is working against them outside of the island.
That's true but I'll just edit 18X and replace it with 17X and my point still stands.
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Old 2009-08-03, 14:24   Link #3091
paraalso
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
The many-worlds interpretation is a lot less popular outside science fiction books. Plus Virgilia clearly stated that once you open the box you learn the truth which points to the conclusion that Ryukishi is following the copenhagen interpretation when talking about the schroedinger's cat.
Anyway... are you prepared to see the story split in two different universes with two different endings? If not even with the multi-world interpretation only one outcome will be shown.
I don't disagree that Ryuukishi is probably following that interpretation, but I wouldn't be surprised if he's aware of the many-worlds alternative too. He seems pretty well read. Who knows, he might even some day spring it on us as another metaphor in game. The description of the kakera already has some similar elements.

I don't think the story will split into two universes either of course. But the many worlds theory is actually the more accepted of the two among physicists these days from everything I know, and the jury is still largely out. It's extremely difficult to test these things after all. I just wanted to make the point that the Schrödinger's cat doesn't necessarily work that way, and it can't be used as a proof that something must work in a particular way.
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Old 2009-08-03, 14:30   Link #3092
ghost_zero5
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Acutally, shouldn't Umineko regarding the different Kakera and such already be interpreted as multiverse - though probably not that kind of multiverse that the alternative interpretation of the Schrödinger's cat theory is about. Of course, those Kakera could maybe also be interpreted as "planets".

Furthermore, yeah Ryuukishi seem to be pretty well read - especially regarding such matters. Also devil's proof, hempel's raven and such things are not things you would find normally in such games.
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Old 2009-08-03, 14:53   Link #3093
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Because that's not the way it is supposed to be enjoyed.
...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
And I'm like one of the most prolific posters in this board.
...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
If you aren't trying to explain everything with human tricks you aren't playing.
...


I have nothing left to say on this topic. I concede the argument to you, as you were so persuasive I can't possibly argue back.
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Last edited by Kaisos Erranon; 2009-08-03 at 15:26.
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Old 2009-08-03, 15:11   Link #3094
Jan-Poo
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Now that was just silly. Either give a proper answer or do not answer at all. Also picking fragments of my sentences and quoting them completely out of context was very lame.
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Old 2009-08-03, 15:20   Link #3095
Nyura Kousen
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Spoiler for Theory:

It has a lot of flaws, anyways. *sits and waits for it to be completely denied*

Last edited by Nyura Kousen; 2009-08-03 at 15:42. Reason: Used to use ¿ ;_;
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Old 2009-08-03, 15:32   Link #3096
ghost_zero5
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In any case you mentioned one interesting point and that is the knowledge about the magic circles.
I wonder who of them could be deceiving us in not knowing them. After all the murderer definitely needs to know them, otherwise he couldn't let it look like a witch murder.
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Old 2009-08-03, 15:34   Link #3097
Ssol
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Originally Posted by Nyura Kousen View Post
Spoiler for Theory:

It has a lot of flaws, anyways. *sits and waits for it to be completely denied*
Rosa = Beatrice is interesting because that means those scenes where Beatrice is there while Rosa is being tortured mean that Rosa is torturing herself (For not being a good mom?)

Also, the story seems to have focused on Maria and Rosa a lot. Arguably more than any of the other families.
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Old 2009-08-03, 15:41   Link #3098
ghost_zero5
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Originally Posted by Ssol View Post
Also, the story seems to have focused on Maria and Rosa a lot. Arguably more than any of the other families.
Up to now at least. However, I hope we will find out more about the other families too. I mean we found out some things already but compared to Rosa and Maria it isn't so much.
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Old 2009-08-03, 15:47   Link #3099
Jan-Poo
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I like more the theory that Beatrice is Jessica or Shannon. In Ep4 said that the demon Gaap is her best friend. Depending on who Gaap is (Shannon or Jessica) then Beatrice would be either Jessica or Shannon. But this is mere speculation. The two Beatrice talking together with one saying that she is taking over to the other maybe means that there are two of them playing the role of Beatrice on different turns. Still I find it hard to believe that Jessica is involved in the crimes unless she is a very good actress.
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Old 2009-08-03, 16:03   Link #3100
Nyura Kousen
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Originally Posted by ghost_zero5 View Post
I wonder who of them could be deceiving us in not knowing them. After all the murderer definitely needs to know them, otherwise he couldn't let it look like a witch murder.
Everyone close to Kinzo can know about them, in my opinion. Which includes Nanjo, Genji, Shannon, Kanon and, but of course, Maria. However, this means one or more of them is an accomplice, or even the murderer. Or, in Maria's case, she could even be an "innocent accomplice", she draws them because "Beatrice" tells her so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ssol View Post
Rosa = Beatrice is interesting because that means those scenes where Beatrice is there while Rosa is being tortured mean that Rosa is torturing herself (For not being a good mom?)
I think the whole "let's kill mama!" scene was Rosa torturing herself (inside her mind), yep. She was about to die, so she started thinking about Maria, and the terrible things she did to her... we know that Maria still loves her, but Rosa sees her as a burden; that's why she felt guilty and started thinking... well, about that

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Still I find it hard to believe that Jessica is involved in the crimes unless she is a very good actress.
I find it hard to believe, too. In all games, someone she loves dies in the first twilight, and we know how she reacts, so it's really improbable. That's why, in my opinion, she might be Maria's Beatrice, but she wouldn't be related to the murders.
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