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Old 2009-08-03, 17:09   Link #3101
ghost_zero5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nyura Kousen View Post
Everyone close to Kinzo can know about them, in my opinion. Which includes Nanjo, Genji, Shannon, Kanon and, but of course, Maria. However, this means one or more of them is an accomplice, or even the murderer. Or, in Maria's case, she could even be an "innocent accomplice", she draws them because "Beatrice" tells her so.
That's true but there are also the "Jessica is the murderer" theories but Jessica knowing about those symbols? Somehow, I can't believe this. However, she could have had e.g. Maria as accomplice that should be enough to get the information she needs.
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Old 2009-08-03, 17:24   Link #3102
Leinne
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In Gohad's notes, he writes that Kanon told him that someone had messed up the tools of the shed and had painted a magic circle while he had the key, that's too similar to the first twilight of ep1 and can be related to the belief of someone making it look as Beatrice exists
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Old 2009-08-03, 17:38   Link #3103
Kaiba
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Question here regarding one theory:

Spoiler for Theory Stuff:

So, thoughts on this theory?




Quote:
I'm not really sure about that one. Yes, it seems quite impossible for her to act like that in front of a social worker - however, she also hit Maria and lost it in front of the cousins. Also, Maria always went shopping with Sakutaro, right? If I recall correctly, the social worker scene happened after she went to the Police Station. Didn't she have Sakutaro with her during that time? If she lost it in the boat to Rokkenjima, during the scene with the social worker she'd still have the doll.
I could see Rosa losing it and hitting Maria in front of a social worker because of that. What I can't see is Rosa attacking the social worker herself hard enough to throw her into a wall and then have no repercussions from that.
As for Maria's shopping: it's possible that Maria endlessly prattled about her friend "Sakutarou" who she describes as a doll to the storekeeper, who simply decided to play along and not hurt a little girl's feelings - it's clear he's a old, nice guy after all, so it's hardly unreasonable.
I argue that Maria did not have Sakutarou at the time the social worker appeared, and lost Sakutarou during an earlier boat ride to Rokkenjima - it's not the first time she's been there before, after all. It's probably around the time the social worker appears that Rosa "killed" Sakutarou in the way I described above.

Last edited by Kaiba; 2009-08-03 at 18:01.
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Old 2009-08-03, 17:38   Link #3104
Nyura Kousen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ghost_zero5 View Post
That's true but there are also the "Jessica is the murderer" theories but Jessica knowing about those symbols? Somehow, I can't believe this. However, she could have had e.g. Maria as accomplice that should be enough to get the information she needs.
I can't believe Jessica = culprit theories either. I mentioned it earlier, her reactions make it unbelieveable. Jan-Poo also said that she'd have to be an awesome actress. It's true, Maria could have helped her - but still... unless she has split personalities or something like that...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leinne View Post
In Gohad's notes, he writes that Kanon told him that someone had messed up the tools of the shed and had painted a magic circle while he had the key, that's too similar to the first twilight of ep1 and can be related to the belief of someone making it look as Beatrice exists
Kanon told him he didn't believe in Beatrice until that happened. Gohda didn't believe, either. So, as you said, the magic circles were made in order to make them believe. However, it could also be a prank some servants (or even Kinzo) pulled off.

EDIT: Sakutaro theory.
I'm not really sure about that one. Yes, it seems quite impossible for her to act like that in front of a social worker - however, she also hit Maria and lost it in front of the cousins. Also, Maria always went shopping with Sakutaro, right? If I recall correctly, the social worker scene happened after she went to the Police Station. Didn't she have Sakutaro with her during that time? If she lost it in the boat to Rokkenjima, during the scene with the social worker she'd still have the doll.

Last edited by Nyura Kousen; 2009-08-03 at 17:52.
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Old 2009-08-03, 17:56   Link #3105
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She had Sakutaro with her in the police station. The social worker scene is the same time when Rosa ripped up the doll too, so obviously she had the doll.
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Old 2009-08-03, 18:02   Link #3106
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The social worker scene was kinda "strange".
I mean that the social worker didn't say anything at that time is possible but I am pretty sure that they would have done something afterwards and Maria probably wouldn't be under Rosa's care anymore.
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Old 2009-08-03, 18:03   Link #3107
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Well, jessica is already a rgeat singer, so maybe she is a well rounded talent compelte with acting askills.

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Originally Posted by ClockWorkAngel View Post
I'm sorry to burst you bubble but,

There are no more than 17 people on the island.

Unless someone amongst the 17 is dead, there can be no 18th person. However it is possible if BATTLER is working against them outside of the island.
However, there can be a real ushiromiya battler amongst the 17 that is kanon whose real name we don't know.

@kaiba: I like your theory on sakutaro.

this is closely related to batler's demise in the 4th Episode; as far as beatrice identity goes, Bernkastel already said that beatrice "is the rules of this world" so, she can kill battler because the rules of rokenjima say that everybody dies.


A little bit on witch classes and the relationship between lambda and beatrice; beatrice as an endless witch is still one level below lambda, who is a traveler, thus meaning that beatrice can't travel through kakeras, she can't either "reset time" that is why it is mentioned in Episode 3's tea party that lambda is lending her powers (kakera travel) to beatrice.


on Bernkastel being evil, for me she is more like an anti-hero, she is doing good stuff but resort to morally gray means, such as using ange as a bait to give battler hte necessary determination to beat beatrice, because batler was having a lot of fun playing the game and was forgetting about his actual goal.

About the kakera system, imho the alternate universes need to be created someway, that is why traveler witches are so powerful, because she can misdirect kakeras, hence why bernkastel created an emo ange, which would be the most suitable to bring battler's determination back, and that also explains some weird things on higurashi; and more importantly creates "kakera 3" ange, and bernkastel being a witch, she is able to grab the dead ange, as witches can only grab people who die ( see hanyu, beatrice) to bring them to other kakera or eventhe meta world.

sorry about the scattered toughts, I normally am offline during the weekends.

Last edited by maximilianjenus; 2009-08-03 at 18:10. Reason: Episode 4th info
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Old 2009-08-03, 18:04   Link #3108
Kaiba
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marion View Post
She had Sakutaro with her in the police station. The social worker scene is the same time when Rosa ripped up the doll too, so obviously she had the doll.
Don't remember, but do the police actually state she had a doll, or did Maria just talk about Sakutarou and describe him to them? And like I said, I don't think Rosa ripped up the doll, as it was already lost - rather she told Maria to get over her imaginary friend and accept that she had lost the doll for good, and so killed Sakutarou in a sense.
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Old 2009-08-03, 18:11   Link #3109
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
I think you misinterpreted those events, anyway as Antera Caramichael pointed out, it is confirmed that Lambda initiated this game.
Forgot that sentence.
Ah OK. It really seems that I misinterpreted it then. I will probably go through this part once more then
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Old 2009-08-03, 18:26   Link #3110
Marion
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
Don't remember, but do the police actually state she had a doll, or did Maria just talk about Sakutarou and describe him to them? And like I said, I don't think Rosa ripped up the doll, as it was already lost - rather she told Maria to get over her imaginary friend and accept that she had lost the doll for good, and so killed Sakutarou in a sense.
She had the actual doll in the holding cell they were keeping her in. She was even 'talking' to Sakutaro and hugging him.
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Old 2009-08-03, 18:50   Link #3111
Jan-Poo
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@Kaiba's sakutaro theory

Your theory is identical to one that was posted a while ago. If I'm not mistaken it was proposed by K//eternal.

You do have a point that the whole scene with the social worker was completely unrealistic. However what I find difficult to accept is that Kawabata found the stuffed lion (supposedly after a family meeting) and he never thought that it was probably lost by one of the Ushiromiya's children.

There is also the fact that Beatrice couldn't repeat in red that sakutaro was the only one in the world. Well it's not really a fact, but the sentece she couldn't repeat was almost certainly 99,999999% the same sentence she said in white a little while before. So I'm more bent into believing that Rosa made another one.

Anyway if the scene of Rosa "killing" sakutaro was fake, then it was also fake that she "killed" siesta 556. That could be an interesting development in Ep5
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Old 2009-08-03, 20:59   Link #3112
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Crazy theory time.

ΛΔ and Bernkastel aren't really powerful traveler witches.
The best way to describe the former is with the phrase "nothing is impossible"
and the latter with "everything is possible".

In fact, that makes Bernkastel and ΛΔ logically equivalent. Of course, the only difference is what you would call the fulfillment of those concepts.

In one case, upon reaching one's goal through sheer determination and willpower, much like Takano's goal of proving her grandfather's theories, one would call the end result a "certainty".

On the other hand, until that end result is reached, one cannot deny the possibility of X happening such that the result is changed, no matter how unlikely that "X" is. Upon reaching that unlikely event due to X, much like Rika being able to survive with her friends when all the odds are against them, one could call the end result a "miracle".

This is why Bern is > ΛΔ, since a future event may never be "certain" until it becomes a event in the present. ΛΔ only manifests herself as the determination required to reached that desired event. If it cannot be reached, that would simply mean the person in question does not have enough determination to insure certainty, not because ΛΔ didn't have the "power" to grant that certainty.

If ΛΔ is a representation of your pesky parents' ideal of "work hard now and relax later", or "doing your h/w so you can have a good future", or "hurry up and wash the dishes since they're never going to wash themselves", then Bern is the embodiment of your ideals, the lazy kid who thinks back "maybe I can relax now and relax later as well", or "maybe I'll have a good future without the h/w", or "perhaps the dishes really will wash themselves".

At their greatest, either one can accomplish "magic". ΛΔ can indeed make a girl into a witch, and Bern can indeed grant Ange a miracle. However, the important thing to remember is, the wielder of that "magic" is not them, but you. Only you can change your fate, or sit around and let it change itself. In this way, Bern and ΛΔ are very similar to Beatrice's existence (read: "Beato=love" theory). All the witches are just a physical manifestation of the innate power of humans to influence the world around them.
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Old 2009-08-03, 21:17   Link #3113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unconfirmed View Post
All the witches are just a physical manifestation of the innate power of humans to influence the world around them.
My ideas of what Bern/Lamda/Beato represent are slightly different but I agree on the manifestation point.

Other witches also appear in the meta world and probably represent concepts such as the ones you described.

However, Battler appears in the meta world as well so... WHO IS BATTLER?
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Old 2009-08-03, 22:16   Link #3114
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Maria had the three magic circles that were used in her notebook.
Therefore, either:
- The killer had some involvement with teaching Maria about the circles, and taught them because they were to be used in the murders.
- The killer looked through her notebooks and used the circles found there.

I've been wondering about an overall theory of the murders:
Spoiler:


@Kaisos Erranon:
As far as locked rooms / impossible crimes goes, Umineko isn't that much. Try reading John Dickson Carr's classic The Three Coffins (aka The Hollow Man).
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Old 2009-08-03, 22:25   Link #3115
Jan-Poo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ssol View Post
My ideas of what Bern/Lamda/Beato represent are slightly different but I agree on the manifestation point.

Other witches also appear in the meta world and probably represent concepts such as the ones you described.

However, Battler appears in the meta world as well so... WHO IS BATTLER?
If you think the purgatorio shown in Ep1 Tea Party is the meta world, then Jessica, George, Maria, Shannon an Kanon also appear in the metaworld.

I don't think the metaworld is limited to witches. I think every person could have a metaphysical conunterpart in the metaworld as long as their presence there can represent something. Like for example the presence of Ange represented the Ange of 1998 trying to solve the mystery from the future.
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Old 2009-08-03, 22:43   Link #3116
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I think that there is no way that a human did all of the murders... Only when Battler proves that Beatrice doesn't exist, is when the crimes become possible for humans... Or maybe we all have to think like Phoenix Wright in order to solve it all...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ssol View Post
However, Battler appears in the meta world as well so... WHO IS BATTLER?
Maybe Battler is Rudolf's Furniture... I always have the idea in my head that he is Furniture... If he was Rudolf's, it would explain the plan with the inheritance and maybe Battler's "sin"
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Old 2009-08-03, 22:48   Link #3117
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Originally Posted by Ssol View Post
My ideas of what Bern/Lamda/Beato represent are slightly different but I agree on the manifestation point.

Other witches also appear in the meta world and probably represent concepts such as the ones you described.

However, Battler appears in the meta world as well so... WHO IS BATTLER?
Another crazy theory.

Meta-Battler (not to be confused with Ushiromiya Battler) is YOU!

The 17 people to arrive on the island include the real Ushiromiya Battler-who is Asumu and Rudolf's son. Kinzo is dead. Watching those 17 getting killed over and over are you, the player, and your opponent, Beatrice.

In the Tea Party of Ep 1, the Ushiromiya Battler that appears is really the voice of you, the player, and your thoughts. Did you not get agitated when Jessica and everybody else decided to believe in the witch and give up? Did you not react the EXACT same way Battler reacted when Beato appeared? From that point on, you unconsciously took on the appearance and personality of Ushiromiya Battler and became what most people call "meta-Battler".

Ryukishi further tempted you with the open-ended playing field where any sort of crazy theory could work (ie. small bombs). As such, you as the opponent of Beatrice, can now easily deny her through an improbable but undeniable method X. Thus, you've also acquired the aid of Bernkastel, who's the concept "everything is possible". In other words, she's the essence of what you call the Devil's Proof. (As a side note, Maria allies herself with Beatrice who is the concept "love" in order to perform her "magic" of creation.)

From Ep 2 on, you start seeing your in-game "avatar"-who looks like Ushiromiya Battler-talk, argue, and generally voice your thoughts to Beatrice during those in-game pauses. However, you continue to think that it is Ushiromiya Battler who is playing with Beatrice. In other words, you believe that you are Ushiromiya Battler. That is why when Ushiromiya Battler caved in at the end of Ep 2, meta-Battler/you did as well.

Ryukishi 7 kept adding fuel to the illusion with Ep 3. He created a situation that caused you to rage at Beatrice's troll and replicated that emotion with meta-Battler in game. Now you feel even closer to your in-game representation, while the Ushiromiya Battler you and Beatrice watch from above seems almost like another person. This also explains why the knowledge meta-Battler/you gain do not transfer over to Ushiromiya Battler in the gameboards.

Furthermore, in Ep 4, Beatrice reveals to you that you are, in fact, NOT Ushiromiya Battler. Yet, to you, who has been tricked into believing yourself to be Ushiromiya Battler for 3 arcs found this is highly shocking.
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Old 2009-08-03, 22:54   Link #3118
Kaisos Erranon
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*snip*
While I would hail this as the best tribute to postmodernism of all time, I think a lot of people would be very angry.
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Old 2009-08-03, 23:04   Link #3119
Ssol
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
If you think the purgatorio shown in Ep1 Tea Party is the meta world, then Jessica, George, Maria, Shannon an Kanon also appear in the metaworld.

I don't think the metaworld is limited to witches. I think every person could have a metaphysical conunterpart in the metaworld as long as their presence there can represent something. Like for example the presence of Ange represented the Ange of 1998 trying to solve the mystery from the future.
-I don't count the first tea party as the meta world of witches. I think it is just what it says it is Purgatorio (whatever that is)

-My point what actually to question what Battler represents. If Beato is love then Battler represents a something that wants to prove love doesn't exist?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ~Pyro~ View Post
I think that there is no way that a human did all of the murders... Only when Battler proves that Beatrice doesn't exist, is when the crimes become possible for humans... Or maybe we all have to think like Phoenix Wright in order to solve it all...

Maybe Battler is Rudolf's Furniture... I always have the idea in my head that he is Furniture... If he was Rudolf's, it would explain the plan with the inheritance and maybe Battler's "sin"
Beatrice said that the sin has nothing to do with Battler's immediate family. But of course she didn't use red.

From the limited reds we have regarding the sin all we really know is that SOME Battler committed a sin 6 years ago that lead to many people's deaths.

Quote:
Originally Posted by unconfirmed View Post
Another crazy theory.

Meta-Battler (not to be confused with Ushiromiya Battler) is YOU!

The 17 people to arrive on the island include the real Ushiromiya Battler-who is Asumu and Rudolf's son. Kinzo is dead. Watching those 17 getting killed over and over are you, the player, and your opponent, Beatrice.

In the Tea Party of Ep 1, the Ushiromiya Battler that appears is really the voice of you, the player, and your thoughts. Did you not get agitated when Jessica and everybody else decided to believe in the witch and give up? Did you not react the EXACT same way Battler reacted when Beato appeared? From that point on, you unconsciously took on the appearance and personality of Ushiromiya Battler and became what most people call "meta-Battler".

Ryukishi further tempted you with the open-ended playing field where any sort of crazy theory could work (ie. small bombs). As such, you as the opponent of Beatrice, can now easily deny her through an improbable but undeniable method X. Thus, you've also acquired the aid of Bernkastel, who's the concept "everything is possible". In other words, she's the essence of what you call the Devil's Proof. (As a side note, Maria allies herself with Beatrice who is the concept "love" in order to perform her "magic" of creation.)

From Ep 2 on, you start seeing your in-game "avatar"-who looks like Ushiromiya Battler-talk, argue, and generally voice your thoughts to Beatrice during those in-game pauses. However, you continue to think that it is Ushiromiya Battler who is playing with Beatrice. In other words, you believe that you are Ushiromiya Battler. That is why when Ushiromiya Battler caved in at the end of Ep 2, meta-Battler/you did as well.

Ryukishi 7 kept adding fuel to the illusion with Ep 3. He created a situation that caused you to rage at Beatrice's troll and replicated that emotion with meta-Battler in game. Now you feel even closer to your in-game representation, while the Ushiromiya Battler you and Beatrice watch from above seems almost like another person. This also explains why the knowledge meta-Battler/you gain do not transfer over to Ushiromiya Battler in the gameboards.

Furthermore, in Ep 4, Beatrice reveals to you that you are, in fact, NOT Ushiromiya Battler. Yet, to you, who has been tricked into believing yourself to be Ushiromiya Battler for 3 arcs found this is highly shocking.
That's a really interesting theory and fits with who Bern and Lamda are talking to at the end of eps 1/2.

However, Ryukishi seems to have abandoned that as we watch episodes 3 and 4 entirely in the third person perspective.

edit: What I mean is that I think Ryukishi started going one way and went another regarding breaking the fourth wall.
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Old 2009-08-03, 23:11   Link #3120
June 1983
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Speaking of the sin, by the way -- this may be kind of obvious, but:

Quote:
Do you know what is the sin?
It isn't because you ate the forbidden fruit.

Do you know what is the sin?
It isn't because you listened to the serpent.

You still don't know what is the sin?
Then, that itself is your sin.

-Frederica Bernkastel
This is awfully similar to what Beato says to Battler when he can't tell her what his sin is.
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