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Old 2009-08-14, 11:33   Link #3221
rogerpepitone
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Spoiler for Wakuseino's problems:
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Old 2009-08-14, 14:11   Link #3222
gtr06
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Originally Posted by Wakuseino View Post
Ok, I've gone through Episode 4 again, and looking back on it, this thing is seriously driving me absolutely insane. Absolutely none of it makes sense, whether I look at it from the "magic" theory or the "human" theory. I don't even know where to begin with the inconsistencies, and these have all probably been pointed out before, but...

Spoiler:


There are lots of other problems and weird things that I can't just put together in a meaningful way, but for the time being that's the one that's really bugging me.
Despite what you brought up, I believe it is still related to the epitaph. What we are presented with is a distorted view of magic, because the killer is trying to make it look like "magic is taking over the island". The killers in this round have more resources than the other killers in other "fragments" are able to use them more efficiently, suggesting that they know a lot more about who is on the island and the weather of the island. Which is why in ANGE's perspective, there is a lot more investigative information available, which coincides with what is happening in this 1986.

Therefore, the twilights don't make sense, because everyone is split up, the stories are consistent in a confusing way and we do not know if everyone died according to the epitaph order that was shown to us in magic. George could have actually died a lot later or earlier than Jessica, she could have seen his bodywalking around before she died.

In Episode 1, the stake that gouged Kanon was found next to him, not in him.
People who aren't gouged, may still be alive.

All this means is the more that is being revealed, the better the killer is at fabricating what we see. Just as we get more information and start to notice the consistancies of using RED or the following of the Epitaph is used to our advantage, the killer is taking advantage that we know this. And is laughing at how we stick to the rules of the game, which actually puts our mind in a cage, while the killer is thinking outside the box.
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Old 2009-08-14, 19:25   Link #3223
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Ep. 1 gives the pilot's name as Kawabata. Is he the same guy who captains the boat, or a relative? It seems odd to give his name if not.
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Old 2009-08-14, 19:37   Link #3224
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Originally Posted by rogerpepitone View Post
Ep. 1 gives the pilot's name as Kawabata. Is he the same guy who captains the boat, or a relative? It seems odd to give his name if not.
I don't think they ever give the pilot's name :v What part is that, when they board the plane or something.
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Old 2009-08-14, 20:12   Link #3225
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It's real early, before it shows the character list, when they're getting on the plane.

"This is Kawabata, the pilot. We sincerely thank you for taking New Tokyo Aviation's flight 201 today. We estimate a 20 minute flight to Niijima airport. We are receiving reports of atmospheric turbulence. Since there might be some shaking of the aircraft, we ask you not to unfasten your seat belts after take-off."
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Old 2009-08-14, 22:30   Link #3226
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Okay, so I've been reading through EP4 with my parents, and I've come up with a theory of sorts.

We just finished reading the chapter of Jessica and George's fight. From this scene and others, I'm pretty sure it's clear that these are not actual fights, but just George/Jessica just displaying their incredible determination. This is the same for this kind of 'magic' shown. It is just a manifestation of a certain characteristic. Another example that further proves this is by Lambadelta being connected with Takano's absolute certainty/ambition.

So how I viewed these scenes a second time through with this in mind is what if these scenes are really actually very far removed from what we're actually seeing? What if George isn't actually in combat with anyone, but is actually in some kind of situation where he is displaying his determination over his future with Shannon? (I don't have a specific idea, but say arguing with relatives?) Or if we take Gaap as actually being Shannon, as some have theorized, what if he is convincing her to ignore her doubts and fears over the situation?

Likewise for Jessica's battle, what if she is in some kind situation where she is showing her persistence to help Kanon realize his humanity, or enjoyment of life. If we take Ronove to literally be Genji, then it could make sense if she is actually talking to him seriously about Kanon and her relationship with him.

This thought led me to the idea of what kind of relationship does he actually have with Kanon/Shannon? Since they all bear the one-winged eagle, and consider themselves furniture. But keep in mind that Genji has been with Kinzo for something like 40 years, while both Shannon and Kanon have only come within the last 10. My point being, is there possibly some reason Genji is against Kanon and Jessica being together?

As well, regarding the dungeon scene and how those 5 were viewing the events that happened with George/Jessica, I have an idea, if only an interesting thought. This only regards up until they're about to escape, since I haven't watched this yet with this idea to consider it. But what if that scene is a representation of these character's 'subconscious'. For example, Shannon may be arguing with George in the rose garden at the time, but the dungeon is showing how George's display of love for her really is reaching her and she understands. (This also slightly stemed another theory I had connected to this that Gaap is really Shannon L5ing/Hypnotized/Mind Controlled etc. and is trying to convince George to kill everyone). Same with Kanon, and slowly realizing how Jessica is right, and how Krauss slowly starts to understand and accept his daughter and what she stands for. I don't know where Nanjo and Kyrie fit into this idea of the dungeon being a group display of inner thoughts, but that's because we don't know enough about them, I guess.

Now back to the idea of magic really being a metaphor for human characteristics, what would Kanon/Shannon's extreme characteristic be? The non-furniture people seem to show magic through things such as love, determination and persistance. But seeing as how Shannon and Kanon view themselves and their power ("cursed power" as Kanon says in the dungeon scene), it seems to me their extreme emotion/characteristic would be something like self-loathing or possibly hatred. This of course would be created because of the Fukuin Orphanage and their indoctrination of being furniture. If this is true, what does this mean for the series as a whole? I'm not trying to imply that the servants are the culprits or anything, but seeing as this line of thought about magic is a very core element of the story, this would be an extremely heavy obstacle that will need to be eliminated for a good end.

Now for a theory for the series as a whole, but I guess more specifically the Meta-World and Battler and Beato's game. With the idea of Jessica/George's fight being a metaphor of displaying some kind of emotion/characteristic, what if we apply this to Battler and Beato's game as a whole? I think this idea could in fact wrap up the whole idea of the Meta-World while completely 100% denying any kind of magic involvement. We wouldn't have to use the idea that it's a dream, Battler being in a coma or that 'just the Meta-world exists, but no magic outside of it'.

Now I don't have any kind of specifics (I just thought of all of this like an hour ago), but what if we view their whole game as Battler displaying whatever extreme characteristic he has, and trying to come to terms with 'Beatrice' and work everything out? This is very relevant to Battler's sin, and who/what Beatrice truly is. Obviously this whole 'game' is on a much, much more complicated level then a single fight between George and Gaap. And this is why so many characters show up, including Ange. Thinking about it some more, it seems like everyone that ever interacts with their game has to be connected with Battler's sin, and are a part of however Battler is actually sorting it out behind the metaphor. This is similar to everything being in Battler's head, but there is a very significant difference. To me that difference is something like even if it is in his head, there is clear development and growth taking place, making everything just as valuable and relevant compared to if it was 'actually' happening. This isn't saying that it is happening all in his head, as we have no clue where/why/what is actually going on behind the fog of the Fantasy perspective if this is all true.

...Did I just solve Umineko?

I hope anyone that reads this was able to follow my logic through all that, ask me if you have any questions.

I posted this because I hadn't seen a theory like this that so completely tied these things together so well.
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Old 2009-08-14, 23:36   Link #3227
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...Um, I'm not sure, but I don't like your theory. *shot* If the murders aren't actually happening then it isn't fun. =X I don't like the theory of everything being in Battler's head. Even if there is growth, development, etc, happening, it takes the fun out of it. =X Besides, it can't be in Battler's head because of the bottles that were shown to exist in 1998. They were detailed with the events of episode 1 and 2. And I believe that there should be bottles for episode 3 and 4 too.(Devil's proof effective) Furthermore, the handwriting was "Beatrice's" handwriting. That would be implying Battler = Beatrice.

*is feeling evil after own theory got shot down*
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Old 2009-08-14, 23:43   Link #3228
Keriaku
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I think you might have misunderstood.

I'm not saying that anything 'isn't happening', I'm just explaining the magical scenes. There are definitely murders and most of these magical scenes do result in a dead body, I'm just explaining what could be happening behind the Fantasy view.

Also, as I stated, I don't actually think it all is in Battler's head (though that is a way to interpret this), I'm just saying that what we see of the Meta-World battler could just be a Fantasy perpective on what is actually going on on a much larger scale. I do also believe there are other kakera, and even possibly that these characters exist. But I believe the game between the two is really a metaphor for Battler working out his sin and who/what Beatrice really is and the characters that involve themselves are all a part of Battler's sin in someway. (Beatrice, Ange, Virgillia (Kumasawa), Ronove (Genji), Gaap etc.)

It's even more relevant because the whole game is about examining the murders, which we know are a result of his sin.

EDIT: It is also 100% sure that there is a mastermind and everything that is planning the weekend, this doesn't really interfere with the ideas I'm presenting.
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Old 2009-08-15, 00:11   Link #3229
Darklas
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Oh, okay. I misunderstood. ;p
But I wish Beatrice existed. In a sense, I kinda like the fantasy. XD I should change sides. XD If your theory is true, I can stop thinking and just enjoy reading it. =X
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Old 2009-08-16, 06:52   Link #3230
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Just a small observation that likely only reflects on the English language. "You" is both singular and plural in the second person.
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Old 2009-08-16, 11:08   Link #3231
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keriaku View Post
Okay, so I've been reading through EP4 with my parents, and I've come up with a theory of sorts.

We just finished reading the chapter of Jessica and George's fight. From this scene and others, I'm pretty sure it's clear that these are not actual fights, but just George/Jessica just displaying their incredible determination. This is the same for this kind of 'magic' shown. It is just a manifestation of a certain characteristic. Another example that further proves this is by Lambadelta being connected with Takano's absolute certainty/ambition.

So how I viewed these scenes a second time through with this in mind is what if these scenes are really actually very far removed from what we're actually seeing? What if George isn't actually in combat with anyone, but is actually in some kind of situation where he is displaying his determination over his future with Shannon? (I don't have a specific idea, but say arguing with relatives?) Or if we take Gaap as actually being Shannon, as some have theorized, what if he is convincing her to ignore her doubts and fears over the situation?

Likewise for Jessica's battle, what if she is in some kind situation where she is showing her persistence to help Kanon realize his humanity, or enjoyment of life. If we take Ronove to literally be Genji, then it could make sense if she is actually talking to him seriously about Kanon and her relationship with him.

This thought led me to the idea of what kind of relationship does he actually have with Kanon/Shannon? Since they all bear the one-winged eagle, and consider themselves furniture. But keep in mind that Genji has been with Kinzo for something like 40 years, while both Shannon and Kanon have only come within the last 10. My point being, is there possibly some reason Genji is against Kanon and Jessica being together?

As well, regarding the dungeon scene and how those 5 were viewing the events that happened with George/Jessica, I have an idea, if only an interesting thought. This only regards up until they're about to escape, since I haven't watched this yet with this idea to consider it. But what if that scene is a representation of these character's 'subconscious'. For example, Shannon may be arguing with George in the rose garden at the time, but the dungeon is showing how George's display of love for her really is reaching her and she understands. (This also slightly stemed another theory I had connected to this that Gaap is really Shannon L5ing/Hypnotized/Mind Controlled etc. and is trying to convince George to kill everyone). Same with Kanon, and slowly realizing how Jessica is right, and how Krauss slowly starts to understand and accept his daughter and what she stands for. I don't know where Nanjo and Kyrie fit into this idea of the dungeon being a group display of inner thoughts, but that's because we don't know enough about them, I guess.

Now back to the idea of magic really being a metaphor for human characteristics, what would Kanon/Shannon's extreme characteristic be? The non-furniture people seem to show magic through things such as love, determination and persistance. But seeing as how Shannon and Kanon view themselves and their power ("cursed power" as Kanon says in the dungeon scene), it seems to me their extreme emotion/characteristic would be something like self-loathing or possibly hatred. This of course would be created because of the Fukuin Orphanage and their indoctrination of being furniture. If this is true, what does this mean for the series as a whole? I'm not trying to imply that the servants are the culprits or anything, but seeing as this line of thought about magic is a very core element of the story, this would be an extremely heavy obstacle that will need to be eliminated for a good end.

Now for a theory for the series as a whole, but I guess more specifically the Meta-World and Battler and Beato's game. With the idea of Jessica/George's fight being a metaphor of displaying some kind of emotion/characteristic, what if we apply this to Battler and Beato's game as a whole? I think this idea could in fact wrap up the whole idea of the Meta-World while completely 100% denying any kind of magic involvement. We wouldn't have to use the idea that it's a dream, Battler being in a coma or that 'just the Meta-world exists, but no magic outside of it'.

Now I don't have any kind of specifics (I just thought of all of this like an hour ago), but what if we view their whole game as Battler displaying whatever extreme characteristic he has, and trying to come to terms with 'Beatrice' and work everything out? This is very relevant to Battler's sin, and who/what Beatrice truly is. Obviously this whole 'game' is on a much, much more complicated level then a single fight between George and Gaap. And this is why so many characters show up, including Ange. Thinking about it some more, it seems like everyone that ever interacts with their game has to be connected with Battler's sin, and are a part of however Battler is actually sorting it out behind the metaphor. This is similar to everything being in Battler's head, but there is a very significant difference. To me that difference is something like even if it is in his head, there is clear development and growth taking place, making everything just as valuable and relevant compared to if it was 'actually' happening. This isn't saying that it is happening all in his head, as we have no clue where/why/what is actually going on behind the fog of the Fantasy perspective if this is all true.

...Did I just solve Umineko?

I hope anyone that reads this was able to follow my logic through all that, ask me if you have any questions.

I posted this because I hadn't seen a theory like this that so completely tied these things together so well.
Well, honestly, you have described what is called anti-fantasy perspective. More or less what you said is the basic of such approach. A little particulars may vary from person to person, but "magic events" = "metaphor of something else" is a constant.

Now the real problem is to explain the various murders and the reasons behind them. Also regardless of what magic is, if you acknowledge the validity of the red truth, you know that there are various crime scenes that are hard to explain by human means. Therefore you also need to find a way to explain how those happened, which is basically what Battler is trying to do, and we as player are compelled to do so.

Only when you have all the elements that would make Battler win this game, then you could say that you solved the game ^_-
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Old 2009-08-21, 05:13   Link #3232
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I'm new here, didn't read a hundred pages, etc etc.

I just finished EP4, and while I wait for EP5 to get translated. I want to focus on some small things. (Grand theories base themselves on trivial matters!)

Before Kyrie dies, she tells Battler of her escape, how they got out of the passageway and up the well and stuff. But when Battler checks the well, it is barred shut, and he could not push, pull, or smash it open. Now where did this grate come from? This points to one thing, Kyrie is lying. The details of the deaths in the fourth game were never confirmed in red, and so it is very possible that Kyrie made up this story to hide the fact that she killed Krauss, Nanjo, Shanon, and Kanon and committed suicide. Then her phone call can be explained as a way to hide Battler from the truth and prevent him from finding out himself. The motive can be explained as "Kyrie colluded with Krauss and etc to extort money from 'Kinzo' via the ruse of testing the children, and once it failed, Kyrie killed her co-conspirators and committed suicide."

Or we can turn this around and say Kyrie was forced at gunpoint to tell Battler this fantasy story, but she knew beforehand that the well was grated and the culprit doesn't. So by saying she climbed out of the well, she was trying to tell Battle that such thing did not happen, the reason of which would be apparent if he checked the well, and he should solve the mystery. This theory leads to the question: who is forcing Kyrie to tell this story and why? Like my Kyrie-culprit theory above, the fantasy story is obviously made up to hide the truth, and it is possible that the culprit forced/allowed Kyrie to make up some part of the story than make her recite the story word by word. Maybe afterwards, the culprit finally realized Kyrie's hidden message to Battler and thereby had her shot? Then who could be in a position to force Kyrie at gunpoint? If we ignore the twilight order, then everyone except Kinzo (confirmed dead in red), Kanon (confirmed dead before Kyrie in red) and Battler (the one on the phone being talked to) are able to do this. The only information in red we are given is Kanon is the first among the Kyrie's group to die, making him the ninth sacrifice. But we know nothing about the order of the other deaths. Another thing to consider is "why" the truth needs to be hidden, was it to cover up a murder, or the location of the cache, or is it something entirely different?

Actually...can we trust Battler's observations at all? He did see Beatrice during his test, so if this is true, then Beatrice is among the 17 on the island....? His test is before he confirmed everyone's death too....(except George)


Also, this is just useless speculation. There must be a place called Mirai-an 未来庵 somewhere, according to m b t q. Perhaps it's the main mansion itself, or the chapel, or some still unknown building. I can't figure out which kanji "billion" would correspond to....備来庵?
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Old 2009-08-21, 07:10   Link #3233
Jan-Poo
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wai miraian? Kuwadorian doesn't have that kanji neither the sound.

If they existed they would be, mirian and birian.
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Old 2009-08-21, 07:53   Link #3234
Natsuki Hyuga
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Well, the katakana reading for them would be ビリオン (bi-ri-o-nn) for billion and ミリオン (mi-ri-o-nn) for million. Kind of forgot for quadrillion and trillion. If this would help, anyway... I'm not really sure if it could be read another way or something.
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Old 2009-08-21, 08:16   Link #3235
Jan-Poo
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yeah but it looks like kuwadorian and toraian follow a different rule.

For example trillion should be "toririon" and quadrillion should be "kuwadoririon", in other words kuwadorian and toraian aren't the katakana version of quadrillion and trillion but of: "quadrian" and "trian".

The difference is quite evident in the case of the latter because of the different pronounciation of the syllable "tri".
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Old 2009-08-21, 12:01   Link #3236
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umm I just had an idea/theory regarding the siestas and stakes...
Maybe they are kids that Kinzo took from an orphanage... [like he did with Shannon and Kanon when he took them from one]... and then, by his orders they were well-trained.
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Old 2009-08-21, 12:02   Link #3237
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but then how do you get around the limit of the people on the island?
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Old 2009-08-21, 12:05   Link #3238
Ithekro
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Furniture.....
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Old 2009-08-21, 15:34   Link #3239
k//eternal
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
yeah but it looks like kuwadorian and toraian follow a different rule.

For example trillion should be "toririon" and quadrillion should be "kuwadoririon", in other words kuwadorian and toraian aren't the katakana version of quadrillion and trillion but of: "quadrian" and "trian".

The difference is quite evident in the case of the latter because of the different pronounciation of the syllable "tri".
Well, you could consider them to be "quadrion" and "trion", given how the the "on" is pronounced in "*illion", right? In which case you're just dropping the "lli" from it.
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Old 2009-08-21, 16:38   Link #3240
Jan-Poo
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but official katakana versions of billion trillion etc, exist, and they end with "on"

http://homepage2.nifty.com/m-travell...ber-hikaku.htm

now if I search for

ビリオン トリリオン クワドリリオン

I get several pages on google, but if search for

ビリアン トリリアン クワドリリアン

I get none.

So there's no mistake.

Another possible interpretation is that the "an" part is what it actually is "resort" and only preceding numeral must be considered. In this case it would be the latin numeral progression:

uni
bi
tri
quadri
quinque/quint
sex
sept
oct

http://phrontistery.info/numbers.html

It can't be the greek one because the fourth one would be "tetra".
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