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Old 2009-09-25, 16:05   Link #3501
gtr06
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was there ever a speculation in episode 3 that Rosa died and Beatrice just took her clothes and her place? after watching the cartoon it seems possible to me.
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Old 2009-09-25, 16:06   Link #3502
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Originally Posted by gtr06 View Post
was there ever a speculation in episode 3 that Rosa died and Beatrice just took her clothes and her place? after watching the cartoon it seems possible to me.
I think someone would notice if Beatrice took Rosa's place. Beatrice is taller than her and her facial features are more mature, compared to Rosa's. Plus you can easily tell Beato is older than Rosa in that time period. It doesn't seem likely to me.
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Old 2009-09-25, 16:10   Link #3503
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And come on! I mean the ushiromiya's aren't the happy family but they would notice if someone switched roles with Rosa, not only by looking but by her behaviour
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Old 2009-09-25, 16:35   Link #3504
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Originally Posted by gtr06 View Post
was there ever a speculation in episode 3 that Rosa died and Beatrice just took her clothes and her place? after watching the cartoon it seems possible to me.
If you've only read up to episode 4 then this is a possibility since there is no red text to deny it. However, wouldn't it be strange that no one would recognize Rosa's sudden change in appearance?

Keep reading and the answer will probably be revealed.
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Old 2009-09-25, 18:08   Link #3505
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Originally Posted by gtr06 View Post
was there ever a speculation in episode 3 that Rosa died and Beatrice just took her clothes and her place? after watching the cartoon it seems possible to me.
That is quite difficult to believe, unless they were twin from what Rosa said, you can understand that her mother was still alive back then. How could Beatrice trick Rosa's own mother? Plus Beatrice was completely clueless about the world, this is impossible.

However what the anime made me think is that Rosa somehow developed a fake "beatrice" personality after the trauma of seeing the corpse of the real Beatrice dead because of her. That's what I would believe if I were an anime viewers without any VN knowledge.

Anyway, as usual the anime messes up my theories. I thought Beatrice's death was no accident and that someone pushed her. In the novel it is possible, but the anime completely changed the dynamic of the incident, so it isn't possible anymore unless Rosa is deaf, or the killer is a ninja.
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Old 2009-09-25, 20:46   Link #3506
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Even in the VN, the idea of Rosa's Beatrice being murdered doesn't make sense. Nobody could have known that Rosa would go to Kuwadorian, or where they would be. It occurred in a part of Rokkenjima far from the mansion, so nobody would be there otherwise.
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Old 2009-09-25, 21:04   Link #3507
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It is possible. Rosa was missing, we know there's 2km from the mansion and the kuwadorian and there isn't a straight path. It must have taken several hours, enough for someone to be alarmed. If someone went in the forest in search of Rosa, that person could have seen Beatrice and decided to take advantage of that situation (assuming she had a reason to hate her).
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Old 2009-09-25, 21:09   Link #3508
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Originally Posted by Vega Lyra View Post
For Rosa and Maria's death in EP3, I'd have to agree that a different person committed their murders. I can imagine Eva killing Maria first out of frustration (fight about gold? did Eva even find the gold? ), and Rosa is shocked enough to pull the gun at Eva, but Eva instinctively uses her wide array of martial arts skills to kill her. I don't think Eva would have planned to kill them beforehand. (Does Eva have an alibi during the time Rosa and Maria were out of the guesthouse? )

For Maria's rose outburst in EP3, I have no clue why she suddenly wanted to see it. This situation seems to be only unique to EP3. There seems to be a heavy fuss about Maria's rose in Umineko.
Eva technically has no alibi. Her alibi is Hideyoshi's word, but if Battler's cigarette deduction was true then that alibi is gone.

The rose was fixed by Beatrice and she probably wanted to take care of it so that it wouldn't be broken again, since Beatrice probably explained to her how endless magic does not usually last all the time maybe.
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Old 2009-09-26, 18:34   Link #3509
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Haven't read anything in this thread yet since I'm not done EP4...but the scene I'm at now has left me confused about something I'm hoping someone can clear up.

(Also, oh my God, I absolutely hate Rosa now...she's the most detestable human being ever, and I think it's because she's so realistic it's hard to imagine her as just a character in a story...)

Anyways.

Spoiler for my question:
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Old 2009-09-26, 18:55   Link #3510
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Originally Posted by KanonTheFurniture View Post
Haven't read anything in this thread yet since I'm not done EP4...but the scene I'm at now has left me confused about something I'm hoping someone can clear up.

(Also, oh my God, I absolutely hate Rosa now...she's the most detestable human being ever, and I think it's because she's so realistic it's hard to imagine her as just a character in a story...)

Anyways.

Spoiler for my question:

Spoiler:
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Old 2009-09-27, 07:55   Link #3511
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...the incident that had her deny Maria, Sakutaro, and the Stakes happened after Maria was already dead, after everything on October 4th and 5th of 1986 had already happened.
Uhm from what I understand. Ange told Maria that witches don't exist when she was a child on Rokkenjima. I think there was a flashback when Ange remembers telling that to Maria, I can't find it right now, but I remember her saying that she's been told by her father and mother that witches do not exist in reality.
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Old 2009-09-27, 07:59   Link #3512
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Uhm from what I understand. Ange told Maria that witches don't exist when she was a child on Rokkenjima. I think there was a flashback when Ange remembers telling that to Maria, I can't find it right now, but I remember her saying that she's been told by her father and mother that witches do not exist in reality.
Wait what? I though this happened before the Rokkenjima Muders.
Didn't they communicate though Maria's Diary at the time Rosa was "Working" and home alone?
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Old 2009-09-27, 08:01   Link #3513
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And what did I say? it happened before the Rokkenima murders.

however I don't understand what you mean by "communicating through Maria's diary",
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Old 2009-09-27, 08:14   Link #3514
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
And what did I say? it happened before the Rokkenima murders.
Ohhh ok then

Quote:
however I don't understand what you mean by "communicating through Maria's diary",
I meant as Ange using Maria's diary as a vessel to communicate to Maria.
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Old 2009-09-27, 10:01   Link #3515
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When Ange was a little girl, she was friend with Maria. They met every year during the family conference, and were playing witches.

But on a certain family conference, the little Ange denied witches and said Sakutaro was just a plush. Maria cried a lot because of that.

Then Sakutaro was destroyed by Rosa, and on another family conference, that Ange couldn't attend to because she was sick, the Rokkenjima mass murder happened.

Several years later, Ange is alone at school and creates imaginary friends, MARIA, Sakutaro and the seven stakes.

But they cannot really protect her from her loneliness, so she denies magic again.

And finally, several years later, Ange goes on a journey to discover the truth, accompanied by her imaginary (or magical) friends.

Scoolgirl Ange is not communicating with Pre-Rokkenjima-Murder Maria with her diary

That's what I understood.
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Old 2009-09-27, 10:03   Link #3516
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
It is possible. Rosa was missing, we know there's 2km from the mansion and the kuwadorian and there isn't a straight path. It must have taken several hours, enough for someone to be alarmed. If someone went in the forest in search of Rosa, that person could have seen Beatrice and decided to take advantage of that situation (assuming she had a reason to hate her).
If somebody were to go into the forest in search of Rosa, wouldn't they be likely to:
- Get everyone (or at least all the Fukuin servants) to form a cordon during the search
- Call out to Rosa repeatedly while searching (in case she'd been injured and was unable to move)
?

It's a big island. It's pretty tough for anybody to find Rosa in the time span.
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Old 2009-09-27, 10:36   Link #3517
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chadauw View Post
When Ange was a little girl, she was friend with Maria. They met every year during the family conference, and were playing witches.

But on a certain family conference, the little Ange denied witches and said Sakutaro was just a plush. Maria cried a lot because of that.

Then Sakutaro was destroyed by Rosa, and on another family conference, that Ange couldn't attend to because she was sick, the Rokkenjima mass murder happened.

Several years later, Ange is alone at school and creates imaginary friends, MARIA, Sakutaro and the seven stakes.

But they cannot really protect her from her loneliness, so she denies magic again.

And finally, several years later, Ange goes on a journey to discover the truth, accompanied by her imaginary (or magical) friends.

Scoolgirl Ange is not communicating with Pre-Rokkenjima-Murder Maria with her diary

That's what I understood.
I don't remember that. ._.
I think chunks of my memory are slowly oozing out

But the thing that made me think that the diary was used as a vessel is after Ange rejected magic at the school, you see Maria in her room (I think she was in her room?) crying. It was hard for me to imagine this right after she came back from Rokkenjima
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Old 2009-09-27, 11:31   Link #3518
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forget the possibility, but what's the point of explaining her death as a murder? does it change anything?
Spoiler for EP5:


as for the rosa search, the mansion and the garden itself are quite big, they probably wouldn't think she was missing unless she didn't appear on the dinner or something like that. even if anyone was looking for her, the first thing to do was to search around the mansion, not the forrest.
especially that everyone knew that rosa is afraid of the witch, nobody would think she could just run into the forrest and get lost.



Quote:
...she's going as far as to blame the Rokkenjima Incident on that fact that she hurt Maria...and the following line is what's really thrown me for a loop:
"I have no basis for it. I don't have a clue how hurting Onee-chan would connect with a mysterious incident several years later."
this line made me think about another thing. it wouldn't be weird if Ange inherited Kyrie's intuition XD, so i thought she may be actually right. pretty much the first thought i had after the sin scene: "what if it is between Battler and Maria?" now i kinda think like that:
battler's_sin + hurting_maria = murder_incident
where the details go like that:
1.sin doen't happen = rokkenjima incident doesn't happen
2.sin happens = plot branches like that:
2a. sin happens + ange doesn't hurt maria = rokkenjima incident doesn't happen
2b. sin happens + ange hurts maria = rokkenjima incident happens


than again i'm just like ange - no basis for it, except for her line and general intuition. just a thought i had.
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Old 2009-09-27, 11:35   Link #3519
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Originally Posted by Chadauw View Post
When Ange was a little girl, she was friend with Maria. They met every year during the family conference, and were playing witches.

But on a certain family conference, the little Ange denied witches and said Sakutaro was just a plush. Maria cried a lot because of that.

Then Sakutaro was destroyed by Rosa, and on another family conference, that Ange couldn't attend to because she was sick, the Rokkenjima mass murder happened.

Several years later, Ange is alone at school and creates imaginary friends, MARIA, Sakutaro and the seven stakes.

But they cannot really protect her from her loneliness, so she denies magic again.

And finally, several years later, Ange goes on a journey to discover the truth, accompanied by her imaginary (or magical) friends.

Scoolgirl Ange is not communicating with Pre-Rokkenjima-Murder Maria with her diary

That's what I understood.
That's exactly how I remember it. In other words when Ange said that she hurt Maria by denying magic, she's not talking about that event at school where she kills the stakes, she's talking about an event that happened on Rokkenjima a lot earlier.
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Old 2009-09-27, 13:59   Link #3520
KanonTheFurniture
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chadauw View Post
When Ange was a little girl, she was friend with Maria. They met every year during the family conference, and were playing witches.

But on a certain family conference, the little Ange denied witches and said Sakutaro was just a plush. Maria cried a lot because of that.
I know the two were once friendly cousins when they met in real life during the conferences. However, I don't remember this being mentioned at all. As I understood it, the game never mentioned anything about the real Ange telling the real Maria when they were little girls on Rokkenjima that she denied magic. The way it seemed was as though the first time Ange denied magic was that time in the classroom, where she was denying it to the witch Maria, the Maria who had already died in the real world during the incident. It's even said pretty clearly when she first talks to Maria through the diary (by which I mean the first time we see it in the game, not the first chronological time she did it) that the Maria she's speaking to is dead in the real world. So that means this Maria she speaks to is the Maria who already died, IE, post Rokkenjima Incident.

And that scene where she denied them in the classroom was a flashback scene, so now in the present of 1998, as Ange is making her journey to Rokkenjima having made up with the Stakes and Sakutaro, she's remembering having hurt them like that in the past. But I don't remember anything being said about the time she denied magic and witches being when Ange and Maria were little girls...are you sure about this? I wrote my previous post after a few hours marathoning until that scene and I absolutely do not remember anything being said about it happening like that. I'm not saying you guys are wrong - like I said, the constant flashbacks really confused me - but I don't remember this being said anywhere. Can someone point it out clearly?
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