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Old 2009-11-01, 15:54   Link #3941
Vega Lyra
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In the VN, we weren't shown a scene in EP4 where George presents his engagement ring to Shannon, so either the author decided not to show the scene (even though it may have happened) or George died much too early. Of course, Shannon may have died before him. I don't really remember much of the Episode, though, it was a complete and utter mess. (Or maybe Shannon shot him Not sure if I like that idea, it's unpleasant taste for a lover to shoot her fiance. One of the rules of 'Werewolf' was that the couple could not kill each other, but I'm not sure if that applies to Umineko or not. )
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Old 2009-11-01, 16:02   Link #3942
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Yes it wasn't shown, but it was against Beatrice's interest to show that, since Shannon was supposed to be trapped somewhere.

It all depends if Gaap is really Shannon or someone else.
If Gaap=Shannon, then it's probable that George proposed to her regardless of the whole situation.
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Old 2009-11-01, 18:28   Link #3943
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Eh, I kind of doubt the ring scene happened the 4th time around. I mean, there's no reason that it HAS to happen, even if everything else has been changed so drastically. I think it's a bit of a stretch to call the entire setup a lie, to the point that Shannon wasn't confined at all, as it would have made most of the episode meaningless. (well, the 1986 part anyway) Shannon COULD be Gaap I guess, but that would seem kind of strange to me. I mean, George chooses to save Shannon above everything else. Then he proceeds to try to kill Shannon? I mean, I know that the scene can't really be taken literally, but I don't think you can call it completely meaningless either. I mean, I guess if Shannon had approached George to help her kill his family, he may have thought that the only way to "save" the Shannon that he loved was to kill this Shannon that was asking something so horrible of him, but I dunno.
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Old 2009-11-01, 18:31   Link #3944
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Unless Gaap = Jessica.
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Old 2009-11-01, 18:56   Link #3945
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I don't really believe that the culprit is the same person for every murder...for atleast EP2 and EP3, possibly EP4 as well. Maybe even EP1.
This ceremony thing, to me, seems to be only something that the culprit(s) themself/selves did not have anything to do with. Well, I can't say it for sure, but from what I've seen in EP2, it's pretty likely. Someone could just have found the bodies, disfigured them accordingly, and 'decorated' the crime scenes as if to give the illusion of a 'First', 'Second' Twilight.
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Old 2009-11-01, 20:32   Link #3946
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Originally Posted by Echoman View Post
Eh, I kind of doubt the ring scene happened the 4th time around. I mean, there's no reason that it HAS to happen, even if everything else has been changed so drastically. I think it's a bit of a stretch to call the entire setup a lie, to the point that Shannon wasn't confined at all, as it would have made most of the episode meaningless. (well, the 1986 part anyway) Shannon COULD be Gaap I guess, but that would seem kind of strange to me. I mean, George chooses to save Shannon above everything else. Then he proceeds to try to kill Shannon? I mean, I know that the scene can't really be taken literally, but I don't think you can call it completely meaningless either. I mean, I guess if Shannon had approached George to help her kill his family, he may have thought that the only way to "save" the Shannon that he loved was to kill this Shannon that was asking something so horrible of him, but I dunno.
Why kill Shannon? George is the one who died and even in the magic scene he never really tried to kill Gaap. If Gaap is Shannon and the magic encounter isn't a total lie, then Shannon killed George.

The alternative is that Jessica is Gaap and therefore you'd have to think that Jessica killed George.

But there aren't more reasons to think Jessica would kill George than there are for Shannon. Both Jessica and Shannon have pretty much the same probability of being Beatrice. Actually since Gaap and Beatrice are "best friends" there is a high probability that one of them is Beatrice and the other is Gaap.

if neither Jessica or Shannon are Gaap and they didn't kill George, then the magic scene is a complete lie. But this is what you don't want to believe in.

Alternatively the magic scene is completely true, but that means magic exists.
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Old 2009-11-01, 22:37   Link #3947
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So just asking, does anyone have any screencaps of the end of Episode 4 and all the things that are said in that "Please kill me" red scene there?
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Old 2009-11-01, 23:33   Link #3948
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So just asking, does anyone have any screencaps of the end of Episode 4 and all the things that are said in that "Please kill me" red scene there?
There is, just a few post back of this topic.
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Old 2009-11-01, 23:34   Link #3949
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I had a theory that I posted a few pages back but got lost in a different discussion so I'll post it here again. Sorry if anyone else has already brought this up previously. I'd like to know what others think about it.

Basically, my theory on the whole Jessica vs Ronove and George vs Gaap fight is based on either Jessica or George being a culprit and that they were both in fact, fighting each other but with one of them(the culprit) in a disguise of some sort. The final bit where Gaap opens a surprise hole when Jessica and George deliver their final blows can be interpreted as the disguise coming off by accident at that moment (or he/she purposely revealed themselves to throw the other off guard). This results in George's death and Jessica being wounded (fatally?) but still alive long enough to make that call to Battler. After that:

Assuming she is a culprit:
She is willingly killed by an accomplice because she would die from her wound either way.

Assuming she is not:
Another culprit came and finished her.

As you can see, its still terribly flawed because I'm still not recalling the events properly. I'll have to replay EP4 to work on this theory better.
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Old 2009-11-02, 00:07   Link #3950
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Shannon was Gaap? George would just accept his death if that was the case. Even if Shannon was Gaap, then who was Beatrice and who shot Shannon then? Suicide?

Every game must have the same setting at the time of 00:00 4th Oct. In this case, Shannon died so early in EP3 and who drove the plot in that episode?
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Old 2009-11-02, 02:21   Link #3951
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EP3 seems to be that something went wrong with the plot, but someone else took over, or paranoia set in with everyone else that things went to chaos.

Perhaps the culprit(s) were caught in the act in EP3 by whoever took over, seeing it as an opportunity, kept up the pattern.
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Old 2009-11-02, 05:34   Link #3952
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In EP2, could Shannon have used the spider web to prevent Kanon's blood loss? (Spiderwebs were used to stop the bleeding of wounds, apparently they were good at blood clotting.) Reference
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Old 2009-11-02, 05:48   Link #3953
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That is interesting.

Nanjo tried to treat Kanon but he killed him and kumasawa because he thought they were accomplices/involved in the crime.

Shannon treated him with the spider web.

And Genji and Gohda hid Kanon somewhere. The magical scene of them killing Kanon could represent his disappearance, so that Kanon could hide behind the scenes to initiate attacks on the culprit.

And gohda not only cooks well, but acts well.


I find that Kanon is really very suspicious. In a certain sense, he is very similar to Takano. His corpse has been missing for 2 out of 4 games already. The consistency is disturbing.
But if Jessica had necrophilia then maybe it can explain his disappearances.
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Old 2009-11-02, 06:03   Link #3954
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I believe the motive for Nanjo's murder in EP2 was because he was possibly acting as a spy for Rosa. (Before she sent the servants away, she whispered to Nanjo about something, and Nanjo agreed to go with the servants.) I don't know if Kanon killed him or not, maybe he did. I don't know the motive for the murder of Kumasawa.

I think Gohda is a poor actor, judging by his reactions later on. Genji's the real actor here.

Kanon is the scapegoat of EP2. It's a bit odd that he's always made suspicious.
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Old 2009-11-02, 06:25   Link #3955
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Originally Posted by Vega Lyra View Post
I believe the motive for Nanjo's murder in EP2 was because he was possibly acting as a spy for Rosa. (Before she sent the servants away, she whispered to Nanjo about something, and Nanjo agreed to go with the servants.) I don't know if Kanon killed him or not, maybe he did. I don't know the motive for the murder of Kumasawa.

I think Gohda is a poor actor, judging by his reactions later on. Genji's the real actor here.

Kanon is the scapegoat of EP2. It's a bit odd that he's always made suspicious.
This theory can solve the servant room case but does not explain the latter Natsuhi's room murder. Since even Kanon was alive, he was wounded too gravely to kill the remaining people. In effect, whether Kanon was dead did not matter at all.

But this is contrary to the red texts that Kanon was killed in Jessica's room. You are not using Shannon=Kanon theory, are you?
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Old 2009-11-02, 06:47   Link #3956
Vega Lyra
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Originally Posted by ijriims View Post
This theory can solve the servant room case but does not explain the latter Natsuhi's room murder. Since even Kanon was alive, he was wounded too gravely to kill the remaining people. In effect, whether Kanon was dead did not matter at all.

But this is contrary to the red texts that Kanon was killed in Jessica's room. You are not using Shannon=Kanon theory, are you?
No, I'm not using the theory. I'm also not a supporter of it. The theory is too 'out there'.
For the murder in Natsuhi's room, I'm still not sure about it. Timing seems to be critical there...
I'm not even sure if Kanon killed anyone in EP2.
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Old 2009-11-02, 07:39   Link #3957
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What I've been wondering about is the reason why Gohda, George, and Shannon barricaded themselves up into Natsuhi's room in the first place.

A few things I thought of.

We have never been told the status of Natsuhi's key before it entered George's pocket, right? Perhaps Rosa needed something from that room, but she could not get to it on her own. After pocketing Natsuhi's key in the chapel, she handed it to George who later went there with Gohda and Shannon. However, someone modified the stakes(Perhaps attaching a blade, or maybe there's a retractable blade hidden in it?) and stabbed George and Shannon. Gohda rushed them to the relative safety of Natsuhi's room, but just before he was able to close the door the killer got him.

I'm pretty sure I know what Rosa needed from Natsuhi's room, but that belongs elsewhere.
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Old 2009-11-02, 08:07   Link #3958
hodil
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I'm pretty sure I know what Rosa needed from Natsuhi's room, but that belongs elsewhere.
Dang. it sounded like an answer.

Quote:
This theory can solve the servant room case but does not explain the latter Natsuhi's room murder. Since even Kanon was alive, he was wounded too gravely to kill the remaining people. In effect, whether Kanon was dead did not matter at all.
On the contrary, i actually believe this can end the whole murder case. Kanon was remained hidden, and was the last to survive. He crawled around and found the culprit and killed him and then died from stressing his wound too much.

Fulfilling the red truth of his death.
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Old 2009-11-02, 09:58   Link #3959
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Dang. it sounded like an answer.



On the contrary, i actually believe this can end the whole murder case. Kanon was remained hidden, and was the last to survive. He crawled around and found the culprit and killed him and then died from stressing his wound too much.

Fulfilling the red truth of his death.
Er, I meant because the answer is an EP5 spoiler.
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Old 2009-11-02, 11:31   Link #3960
ijriims
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Originally Posted by hodil View Post
Dang. it sounded like an answer.

On the contrary, i actually believe this can end the whole murder case. Kanon was remained hidden, and was the last to survive. He crawled around and found the culprit and killed him and then died from stressing his wound too much.

Fulfilling the red truth of his death.
I guess someone or he himself had to clean up the blood trail whereever he crawled to.

And in the end of EP2, at least Genji, Rosa, Maria and Battler still survived. Who was the culprit you were talking about?

Also, according to this theory, when the red texts about Kanon (after 2nd twilight) were declared, Kanon was still alive, so he was only wounded but not killed at that time. Contrary to the red texts.
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