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Old 2009-11-05, 23:24   Link #4101
Jan-Poo
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@jirmis

1) You are totally right

2) There are many theories. Shannon or Jessica are the most popular. As for why she knows, there might be many explanations. Anyway Ep4 hints that Nanjo Kumasawa and Genji are aware of a lot of secrets, so they might as well know this one. In such case Beatrice could have learned from any of them.

3) I wonder. We don't know who's Maria's father either....

4) It wasn't necessary for Kinzo or whoever give Rudolf that child to tell the whole story. Or maybe they they used a lie, or maybe again they did tell the truth, because they had no other choice at that point.

5) Kinzo is dissatisfied by Battler's decision to give up his Ushiromiya's name. That's the only comment he made abut him as far as as I recall. We don't know what opinion had Kinzo of him before that event.
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Old 2009-11-05, 23:42   Link #4102
ijriims
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Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
Also, don't feel like divulging the whole thing, but I will say one thing: A lot of people here seem to assume that Episode 3 was the only odd one out and that the mastermind was generally successful in the other three scenarios, thanks to Higurashi. I argue that only Episode 1 was actually truly successful on the part of the culprits, and the other three were actually failures also.
It depends on how many masterminds you have in mind. My opinion is that EP1 and EP4 were successful for one mastermind, EP2 were successful for another one, in EP3 something went wrong for both masterminds.
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Old 2009-11-06, 00:19   Link #4103
Kaiba
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It depends on how many masterminds you have in mind. My opinion is that EP1 and EP4 were successful for one mastermind, EP2 were successful for another one, in EP3 something went wrong for both masterminds.
Well, right now it runs like this:
Mastermind - George
"Beatrice" - Shannon. Note that I argue that Shannon is the main killer, but is generally reluctant to do the murders in general and is doing them on George's orders rather than any desires of her own.
Accomplices - Nanjo, Genji.

Episode 1 everything works according to plan for George. Shannon fakes death, commits most of the murders, and under George's orders betrays Nanjo and Genji and also kills Kumasawa there. Not sure what happens after midnight - it's possible they died for some reason, possible that they escaped with the gold and did whatever. Don't think it's important.

Episode 2 works well at the beginning, but Rosa gets tipped off about what's going on and thus becomes ultra-paranoid of the servants, making it difficult to kill her. Furthermore, Genji gets tipped off with his imminent betrayal and killls George and Shannon out of fear and Gohda because he was there.

Episode 3 has Shannon attempting to pull out of the murder plot, which causes George to kill her(when is the last time we know with certainty that Shannon is alive anyways? Is it possible she was killed before the others in the First Twilight?) out of panic. With Nanjo's help, George arranges the first twilight to cover up Shannon's death with the epitaph, but eventually collapses afterwards out of guilt. Nanjo however kills Maria and Rosa, and later Natsuhi and Krauss, while Hideyoshi, Kyrie, and Rudolf kill each other. George leaves the building to see Shannon and decides to confess, but Nanjo finds out and mortally wounds him, though George ends up killing him in the end.

Episode 4 has Shannon again attempting to stop the murders, only this time instead of confronting George she decides to show up to the conference as Kinzo and declare herself as the new head as she's already solved the riddle in order to stop the imminent murders from happening. The plan massively backfires, the adults utterly refuse to acknowledge her, and Shannon snaps. She kills George in a sort of final confrontation, and manages to sort of temporarily recruit Jessica to her side before killing her too (I would argue that Jessica was told of George's death, but the two were simply not killed at the same time - something that makes sense within the novel). After learning that Battler doesn't remember his sin toward her, she ends up killing herself in the end.
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Old 2009-11-06, 00:31   Link #4104
ijriims
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Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
Well, right now it runs like this:
Mastermind - George
"Beatrice" - Shannon. Note that I argue that Shannon is the main killer, but is generally reluctant to do the murders in general and is doing them on George's orders rather than any desires of her own.
Accomplices - Nanjo, Genji.
I think I see tons of holes and fussy points here. At least you should put Maria or Rosa in or who could put the letter in parlor in EP2? Who put the stakes alongside the bodies in EP4? Why writing the numbers on the door in EP3? (in fact, Eva has been holding George for a long time and George's eyes were open at that time, so hard to fake the death). And Gohda should also be added to account for what he "saw" in EP4. The sin of Battler was utterly unrelated to the whole episodes? How did abandoning the name of Ushiromiya make the crime occuring? (are you going to tell me initially Shannon and Battler were a pair, but after Battler left the family and so Shannon had to stick with George)

What are the motives, money? Puberty rage against the adults? I don't believe a good ending could arrive if George and Shannon were behind all these.

Let me tell you something about my thoery then. Kyrie and Rosa as masterminds, Genji as executor and Nanjo, Maria, Kumasawa and Gohda as accomplices could explain all the events without these holes.

Last edited by ijriims; 2009-11-06 at 03:59.
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Old 2009-11-06, 05:01   Link #4105
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Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
Well, right now it runs like this:
Mastermind - George
"Beatrice" - Shannon. Note that I argue that Shannon is the main killer, but is generally reluctant to do the murders in general and is doing them on George's orders rather than any desires of her own.
Accomplices - Nanjo, Genji.

Episode 1 everything works according to plan for George. Shannon fakes death, commits most of the murders, and under George's orders betrays Nanjo and Genji and also kills Kumasawa there. Not sure what happens after midnight - it's possible they died for some reason, possible that they escaped with the gold and did whatever. Don't think it's important.

Episode 2 works well at the beginning, but Rosa gets tipped off about what's going on and thus becomes ultra-paranoid of the servants, making it difficult to kill her. Furthermore, Genji gets tipped off with his imminent betrayal and killls George and Shannon out of fear and Gohda because he was there.

Episode 3 has Shannon attempting to pull out of the murder plot, which causes George to kill her(when is the last time we know with certainty that Shannon is alive anyways? Is it possible she was killed before the others in the First Twilight?) out of panic. With Nanjo's help, George arranges the first twilight to cover up Shannon's death with the epitaph, but eventually collapses afterwards out of guilt. Nanjo however kills Maria and Rosa, and later Natsuhi and Krauss, while Hideyoshi, Kyrie, and Rudolf kill each other. George leaves the building to see Shannon and decides to confess, but Nanjo finds out and mortally wounds him, though George ends up killing him in the end.

Episode 4 has Shannon again attempting to stop the murders, only this time instead of confronting George she decides to show up to the conference as Kinzo and declare herself as the new head as she's already solved the riddle in order to stop the imminent murders from happening. The plan massively backfires, the adults utterly refuse to acknowledge her, and Shannon snaps. She kills George in a sort of final confrontation, and manages to sort of temporarily recruit Jessica to her side before killing her too (I would argue that Jessica was told of George's death, but the two were simply not killed at the same time - something that makes sense within the novel). After learning that Battler doesn't remember his sin toward her, she ends up killing herself in the end.
For episode 2, while it would make sense for George to defend Shannon to throw off Rosa's suspicions, why leave the room? The plan was obviously to separate the lot of them. If so, it would make sense to leave at least 1 'wolf' with the remaining 'sheep.' But yet, he left the room, which doesn't make sense when clearly, Genji and Shannon should be enough to kill Kumasawa and Gohda(the only threat). Not to mention that George would be in a good position to launch a surprise attack on Rosa if she were to leave the room.

For episode 3, how does George kill Nanjo? He was dead for quite some time before Nanjo died. And the wound was clearly a fatal one. By the time Nanjo wraps up Jessica, George would have bled out; and if you're a dying man, it doesn't make sense to let your victim plead for some time while blood is gushing out from your chest. Also, at the start, why kill off your comrade Genji so quick when you are already down one man?

And yeah, the sin of Battler should be related to the murders or one of the mastermind's actions for every episode, not just episode 4. It is only episode 4 that it is revealed to be linked, but the link should already have been there. Drawing magic circles also doesn't make sense for a murder with profit as a goal. It is far too risky just to throw a bit of suspicion and mystery; what if the culprit were careless/slow? There are also various other holes such as why would George kill his family? Or why would Shannon kill Kanon and Jessica etc, but these are minor as compared to above.

Last edited by Xapheron; 2009-11-06 at 05:03. Reason: Corrected person to be killed for ep 2
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Old 2009-11-06, 05:27   Link #4106
Smeckledorf
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Well if you are trying to pin the murder for episode 4 on someone, then let us look at some key points.
1. Maria was given a mercy killing.
2. Kannon was the first in Kyrie's group to die. However, we do not know how Kyrie's group is defined so we just know he died before Kyrie.
3. Some sort of delayed action trap killed Battler, I do count poison in this case to be a trap.
4. I seriously doubt that the culprit is the same in each episode seeing as almost every time the results were everyone dies. I guess you could argue that Battler's sin is so horrifying that someone who would hate the thought of murder could in fact be a culprit, thus not being able to live with the guilt we get a suicide.
5. For this all being caused by Battler's sin, why is he always one of the last to die? To me it seems like someone is trying to cover up Battler's sin.

There are many more key points to determining the culprit(s) but with some information missing, I cannot say for sure who they are. I would think that there are two sides of the murders, though. I think there is a person or people trying to cover up Battler's sin and there is a person or people that would be driven to murder by Battler's sin. However, we cannot assume that Battler's sin is the only cause of the tragedy just the main cause.

Another reason I do not think there is only one culprit is because of Kinzo's body. I think that was thrown in after some murders because someone did not want the others to know Kinzo had been dead for a while. But if the person who did that was the one culprit then there would be no reason to burn Kinzo's body at first seeing as everyone else would be dead before long. The letters though, those were likely written up by one person so I would say but you never know. Unlike this episode you do not see much collaboration, the only other time I would say an event like this happened was in episode 2 with Kannon.

Back to Kinzo's death to wrap things up, if Battler killed Kinzo then it would make sense that the culprit is trying to cover the crime up by also burning Kinzo's body but if this was all to cover for Battler then it does not make sense that Battler does not live. I really cannot see a way where there aren't multiple culprits here.

In short, it's good thing Battler's victory conditions do not involve explaining a motive.
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Old 2009-11-06, 07:10   Link #4107
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At least you should put Maria or Rosa in or who could put the letter in parlor in EP2?
I guess depending on how you're defining, I could list Maria as an accomplice, if by accomplice you mean"someone who helps Beatrice with the murders." I generally view her as an unwitting one, but yeah she could be one then.

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Who put the stakes alongside the bodies in EP4?
Shannon. Any of the four are capable of being the stakers, but Shannon didn't give a damn anymore after talking with Battler and so was lackadaisacal about it, to say the least.

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Why writing the numbers on the door in EP3?
Okay, this I'll admit I don't know, but as we still don't quite understand completely why anyone would, it's a minor point.

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And Gohda should also be added to account for what he "saw" in EP4.
Huh? Why? From what I remember, all he did from Battler's perspective in Episode 4 was rush into the guesthouse, babble incoherently, and get locked in the shed. Nothing odd here.

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are you going to tell me initially Shannon and Battler were a pair, but after Battler left the family and so Shannon had to stick with George
More or less. I very, very heavily suscribe to that theory.

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What are the motives, money? Puberty rage against the adults? I don't believe a good ending could arrive if George and Shannon were behind all these.
George's motive would be getting their hands on the gold and killing the adults who stand in his way. Shannon doesn't really have one, as I've stated that she's a reluctant order and is just following orders.
A good ending would be easy. Battler and "Beatrice" team up to stop the murders once and for all and get George to understand what he's doing is wrong somehow.

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Let me tell you something about my thoery then. Kyrie and Rosa as masterminds, Genji as executor and Nanjo, Maria, Kumasawa and Gohda as accomplices could explain all the events without these holes.
I've got a couple problems with this already. The first problem is the amount of people involved in that idea - I would argue that only a few people are actually involved in the murders and having a large amount of people creates the inevitable problem of conspiracies in someone who starts blabbing.

Secondly is simply the fact that Kyrie and Rosa are both killed in the first twilight of the first episode, and unlike Shannon whom a case can be made for her not being dead (Battler never seeing her face and such), those two are definitely dead. I am generally disinclined to think that the culprit are people killed right off the bat, so I'm fairly certain that Rosa, Rudolf, Kyrie, and Gohda have nothing to do with it.

Quote:
For episode 2, while it would make sense for George to defend Shannon to throw off Rosa's suspicions, why leave the room? The plan was obviously to separate the lot of them. If so, it would make sense to leave at least 1 'wolf' with the remaining 'sheep.' But yet, he left the room, which doesn't make sense when clearly, Genji and Shannon should be enough to kill Kumasawa and Gohda(the only threat). Not to mention that George would be in a good position to launch a surprise attack on Rosa if she were to leave the room.
Rosa wasn't going to leave the room, there's no way that George can take on Rosa with a gun and Battler with no weapons, and it's always possible Rosa might turn on him and maybe even kill him as she's definitely paranoid. Makes sense to retreat, consolidate, and get hands on weapons, as Genji should know where they are.
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Old 2009-11-06, 07:37   Link #4108
ijriims
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Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
George's motive would be getting their hands on the gold and killing the adults who stand in his way. Shannon doesn't really have one, as I've stated that she's a reluctant order and is just following orders.
A good ending would be easy. Battler and "Beatrice" team up to stop the murders once and for all and get George to understand what he's doing is wrong somehow.


I've got a couple problems with this already. The first problem is the amount of people involved in that idea - I would argue that only a few people are actually involved in the murders and having a large amount of people creates the inevitable problem of conspiracies in someone who starts blabbing.

Secondly is simply the fact that Kyrie and Rosa are both killed in the first twilight of the first episode, and unlike Shannon whom a case can be made for her not being dead (Battler never seeing her face and such), those two are definitely dead. I am generally disinclined to think that the culprit are people killed right off the bat, so I'm fairly certain that Rosa, Rudolf, Kyrie, and Gohda have nothing to do with it.

First, if you said Shannon faked her death in EP1, then it means either Hideyoshi, Kanon were blind or they were accomplices as well.

In EP1, did Battler see the "bodies" of Kyrie and Rosa? I am not sure what Battler saw were corpses from the beginning. But you raised a good point that if they were both dead then I had trouble in explaining what was going on afterwards.

In EP4, Kumasawa and Gohda rushed to Battler's group and told them about Kinzo summoning mysterious people from nowhere and slaughtered the people in the dining room (you better re-read that chapter), this was confirmed latter by Kyrie telling Battler for what "happened" throughout the event (if you remember, this was just before Battler heard the shot of Kyrie). Your theory could not account for the testimony of Gohda, Kumasawa and Kyrie unless you list Gohda and Kumasawa as accomplice and Shannon was disguising Kyrie. THat's why I said you should include Gohda and Kumasawa.

My number of accomplices is not that high compared to your theory (yours theory: George+ Shannon+ Nanjo+ Genji +Maria = 5 and according to what I said, you should also include Kumasawa and Gohda, in total 7 accomplices, and consider how Shannon can fake death in EP1, your accomplice list could go up to 9. Mine: Kyrie + Rosa + Maria +Genji + Nanjo + Kumasawa =6, where Gohda was accomplice only in EP4. Real executors are only Kyrie, Rosa and Genji. Kumasawa, Gohda, Maria and Nanjo were merely covering the executors up and telling lies. So regarding total number of accomplice my theory is not worse than yours.

Plus there was a lot of inexplicable things in your theory: how Nanjo and Kumasawa was handled in EP2. (if you are going to say Gohda was threatened to complice, he should say the truth when they were all in parlor, as Rosa still holds the gun and Battler was there, rather than going out with them again. And really after Genji witnessed the death of Nanjo could he still help George and Shannon?). Who blasted off top of Shannon 's head in EP4? Suicide? Where was the weapon? (I guess you would say it dropped to the well through some unknown mechanism). And how can Nanjo hurted George in EP3 and placed his body in the mansion? Eva was guarding the 1st floor and who locked the window if they got out through the window in second floor? How could Nanjo come back to the guest's mansion was a mystery indeed. In Ep2, Rosa said Shannon and Ginzo had alibi since she had heard from Kinzo personally. What a blatant lie. If Rosa was not an accomplice, this did not make sense. She would immediately identified Genji as the killer of all people in Natsuhi's room and shot him in the head if she was that suspicious of the servants and innocent herself.

Final remark: what a lame good ending it would be. For Battler and Shannon to persuade someone, who would mercilessly kill his parents, lovers and his whole family for MONEY while pretending perfect innocence in front of others, into redemption..... is an impossible event in both Umineko's world and the real world. It could only happen in some lousy novels. This kind of "good" ending is too aweful, and childish to be true. For Battler's sin as forgetting Battler and Shannon's relationship... it is so cheesy, belonging to third-class love romance plot.

Last edited by ijriims; 2009-11-06 at 08:32.
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Old 2009-11-06, 08:45   Link #4109
mizou
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please can someone tell me what are the different explanations of battler's sin??
I can't figure out
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Old 2009-11-06, 09:07   Link #4110
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In EP4, Kumasawa and Gohda rushed to Battler's group and told them about the golden thread and Kinzo summoning mysterious people from nowhere, this was confirmed when Kyrie told Battler for what "happened" throughout the event (if you remember, this was just before Battler heard the shot of Kyrie). Your theory could not account for the testimony of Gohda, Kumasawa and Kyrie unless you list Gohda and Kumasawa as accomplice and Shannon was disguising Kyrie. THat's why I said you should include Gohda and Kumasawa.
Ran through this section of Episode 4, and as far as I can tell, this never, ever happens. Gohda and Kumasawa at best talk about how Kinzo has armed underlings, but he never says anything about summonings or golden threads. Kyrie, yes, but there's a reason I asked if it was possible that that wasn't Kyrie on the phone to begin with.

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Battler did see the "bodies" of Kyrie and Rosa? I am not sure what Battler saw were corpses from the beginning.
No Body double tricks exist! So if those weren't corpses, what were they? How do you get around Kyrie and Rosa's deaths in Episode 1 in the end? If you can't, then two problems arise, Natsuhi's death being the first and the masterminds getting killed off right from the beginning being the second.

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My number of accomplices is not that high compared to your theory (yours theory: George+ Shannon+ Nanjo+ Genji +Maria = 5 and according to what I said, you should also include Kumasawa and Gohda, in total 7 accomplices, and consider how Shannon can fake death in EP1, your accomplice list could go up to 9. Mine: Kyrie + Rosa + Maria +Genji + Nanjo + Kumasawa =6, where Gohda was accomplice only in EP4. Real executors are only Kyrie, Rosa and Genji. Kumasawa, Gohda, Maria and Nanjo were merely covering the executors up and telling lies. So regarding total number of accomplice my theory is not worse than yours.
Numbers-wise, I have Shannon as the main killer, Genji and Nanjo as the accomplices and stakers, and George as the mastermind, though he almost never kills anyone. I don't count Maria as I would argue she does not know of the main plan (she just thinks she's doing Beatrice's work) and thus couldn't spill the beans on things. So that makes 4, as I've already proven that there's no point in adding Gohda and Kumasawa.
You have Kyrie, Rosa, Genji, Nanjo, Kumasawa, Gohda (I'd like for you to explain how he was an accomplice only in Episode 4). I guess Maria is the same for you as for me, so that makes 6 for you, one of whom has a reputation for not being able to hold her tongue. And personally, I find 5 people to be the limit on a conspiracy like this being pulled off.


If Kyrie, Rosa, and Genji are the executors, than who killed Natsuhi in Episode 1? And what was Shannon doing in Episode 2 when Rosa sent her and Genji to check on Kinzo?

Quote:
If you said Shannon faked her death in EP1, then it means either Hideyoshi, Kanon were blind or they were accomplices as well.
Or it means they didn't check Shannon that well as they were grossed out. Risky? Yes. But what have been told from the beginning about risk? And what does it say about Kyrie and Rosa, who should have been even more difficult to pull off than Shannon?

Quote:
how Nanjo and Kumasawa was handled in EP2. (if you are going to say Gohda was threatened to complice, he should say the truth when they were all in parlor, as Rosa still holds the gun and Battler was there, rather than going out with them again. And really after Genji witnessed the death of Nanjo could he still help George and Shannon?)
Gohda did try to say the truth, but he was panicking too much and simply couldn't spit it out, which is pretty much what we saw when Rosa and Battler were talking with him. And of course Genji didn't trust them - I'm arguing that Genji's the one who killed George and Shannon in Episode 2 as he decided that those two couldn't be trusted, they would betray him, and so he had to take them out first.

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Eva was guarding the 1st floor and who locked the window if they got out through the window in second floor? How could Nanjo come back to the guest's mansion was a mystery indeed.
Eva left for a bit and left Krauss and Natsuhi to themselves, who died. The theory is that Nanjo left the mansion, killed George, returned, and killed Natsuhi and Krauss when Eva was away with a headache or whatever.

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In Ep2, Rosa said Shannon and Ginzo had alibi since she had heard from Kinzo personally. What a blatant lie. If Rosa was not an accomplice, this did not make sense. She would immediately identified Genji as the killer of all people in Natsuhi's room and shot him in the head if she was that suspicious of the servants and innocent herself.
Not really, if you think about it harder. While Rosa would immeadiately suspect Genji and Shannon in that scenario, her problem here is that she doesn't know whom else to suspect. If she shoots Shannon and Genji, and then it turns out that Gohda and Kumasawa are in it too, she's dead, and it's possible that she's also concerned with what might happen to Maria. Therefore, she kicks out all the servants, barricades herself with Maria and Battler (whom she trusts until the letter appears), and thus has a defensive advantage that she doesn't beforehand from the servants. Note that she kicks out Shannon and Genji first and frankly maintains a huge paranoia of all the servants, not just Kanon.
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Old 2009-11-06, 09:43   Link #4111
Jan-Poo
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please can someone tell me what are the different explanations of battler's sin??
I can't figure out
Uhmm I can't remember many theories...

There are some who thinks Battler killed or somehow caused the death of Asumu (it did happened six years before, and Beatrice said that because of his sin someone died)
Another theory is that Battler made a promise with someone in Rokkenjima. But then Battler totally forgetting it decided to never attend the family meetings. (Beatrice said: "not remembering is also your sin")

Can't think of other possibilities right now...


About Kaiba's theory. I think it is an interesting explanation. I also believe that Shannon is Beatrice and I also think that the evil mastermind is George.

However I think there is more to be explained. For example why is that Shannon is killing everyone? And why is that George also dies? Even assuming Shannon is blackmailed that hardly can make someone become a serial murderer.

Let me add a piece to your theory. It is my belief that there is a plan in act and many people are involved. This constitutes the "noise" in the mystery.

At the start of the whole story we see Kinzo and Nanjo talking. Imho that's no fake scene, that really happened. Nanjo suggests Kinzo should leave his last will. I believe in the end Kinzo listened to Nanjo and he really wrote his last will.

His last will involved some kind of convoluted plan for his heirs. At the very least we know that the epitaph and the potrait were shown by his will. This happened as soon as he knew he was going to die very soon. It is possible that this is all a huge plan to select the new heir, but there might be more.

Anyway this plan involves a lot of strange things, including the illusion of Kinzo being still alive, including Beatrice's letters and all. However this probably didn't include the murders.

It is my belief that the real mastermind is taking advantage of this scenario of lies and deceits to kill everyone.

So here's the catch. It is impossible that this many people could be part of a huge plot involving serial murders (including the accomplices themselves in the victim list). But if the plan didn't involve anything of the sort, then you can explain why so many people are lying. Maybe the original plan involved disappearances and fake murders. But the mastermind is doing it for real.

Genji, Nanjo, Kumasawa, Kanon and Shannon are all part of this plot, all of them are following Kinzo's will. However they are not part of some serial murder plot. This is the "noise" in the mystery. Beatrice is also abiding to Kinzo's plan, however she's not the mastermind and probably she isn't the murderer either.
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Old 2009-11-06, 10:02   Link #4112
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Originally Posted by ijriims View Post
Final remark: what a lame good ending it would be. For Battler and Shannon to persuade someone, who would mercilessly kill his parents, lovers and his whole family for MONEY while pretending perfect innocence in front of others, into redemption..... is an impossible event in both Umineko's world and the real world. It could only happen in some lousy novels. This kind of "good" ending is too aweful, and childish to be true. For Battler's sin as forgetting Battler and Shannon's relationship... it is so cheesy, belonging to third-class love romance plot.
Well, I've never paid too much attention to the mystery aspect of the story, but it's very easy to assign a motive for George.

After all, episode 4 goes right out and says: George is willing, with little hesitation, to kill everyone if it means that he and Shannon can be together.

So his motive doesn't just have to be money. It can be that he was starting to panic. Maybe he was under increasing pressure to marry someone else. Maybe they were threatening to fire Shannon/send her somewhere else/kill her if he didn't comply (a possible explanation for a second competing Rokkenjima murderer?)

It seems a bit too obvious and for that reason I'm a little skeptical.

For a similar reason, though episode 4 makes it hard for me to imagine Jessica as the murderer, if she'd kill herself before she'd sacrifice anyone else.

As for a good end, if we work under the perspective that George is the murderer, then perhaps the first step to reach that goal would be to find those who are working against Shannon and reach a compromise with them regarding her/the treatment of servants in general.
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Old 2009-11-06, 10:07   Link #4113
ijriims
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Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
Ran through this section of Episode 4, and as far as I can tell, this never, ever happens. Gohda and Kumasawa at best talk about how Kinzo has armed underlings, but he never says anything about summonings or golden threads. Kyrie, yes, but there's a reason I asked if it was possible that that wasn't Kyrie on the phone to begin with.
Not only Kyrie's voice was heard, but also Krauss. If Shannon killed people in the parlor as you say, then how Krauss, Kanon, Nanjo and Kyrie could act as if nothing happened when Shannon was with him.

In fact, it was quite difficult to imitate someone's voice which others are familiar with. Shannon imposting as Kyrie was unlikely. Kanon and Nanjo did talked on the phone with Jessica and Kumasawa.

And as you know, Gohda and Kumasawa was saying Kinzo and his underlings killing everyone. How does it reconcile with your theory that Shannon killing people in the parlor?


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No Body double tricks exist! So if those weren't corpses, what were they? How do you get around Kyrie and Rosa's deaths in Episode 1 in the end? If you can't, then two problems arise, Natsuhi's death being the first and the masterminds getting killed off right from the beginning being the second.
If what Hideyoshi and Kanon saw was a body, then this red texts applied for Shannon as well, if it applies for Kyrie and Rosa. As Hideyoshi said half of Shannon's head was blasted off, with half of her face remains. I suppose it did not require checking at all. Or are you saying that was not corpse at all?

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Numbers-wise, I have Shannon as the main killer, Genji and Nanjo as the accomplices and stakers, and George as the mastermind, though he almost never kills anyone. I don't count Maria as I would argue she does not know of the main plan (she just thinks she's doing Beatrice's work) and thus couldn't spill the beans on things. So that makes 4, as I've already proven that there's no point in adding Gohda and Kumasawa.
You have Kyrie, Rosa, Genji, Nanjo, Kumasawa, Gohda (I'd like for you to explain how he was an accomplice only in Episode 4). I guess Maria is the same for you as for me, so that makes 6 for you, one of whom has a reputation for not being able to hold her tongue. And personally, I find 5 people to be the limit on a conspiracy like this being pulled off.
Gohda as accomplice only in EP4 since my theory is that Kyrie and Rosa teemed up with Krauss in EP4 and Gohda was always Krauss's accomplice. But what I mean as Krauss's accomplice was that Gohda was bribed to assist Krauss for hiding Kinzo's death. Not killing people. But as Kyrie mentioned about the death of Kinzo in EP4 during their "lively" adult discussion, Krauss latter approached Kyrie to offer a chance to team up and Kyrie suggested making the whole scene as Kinzo's doing. But latter Kyrie betrayed Krauss and killed everyone. As I think Kyrie was the real Beatrice, she confronted Battler latter and killed herself for Battler's unawareness of his own sin (for what sin I have suggested, please check previous 1 or 2 pages). All the stakes were latter placed by Maria. And she was too weak to actually stab the stakes into the bodies.

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If Kyrie, Rosa, and Genji are the executors, than who killed Natsuhi in Episode 1? And what was Shannon doing in Episode 2 when Rosa sent her and Genji to check on Kinzo?
Who killed Natsuhi depends on whether Kyrie faked her death or not. So I am not going to talk about it anymore. Shannon was doing what in Ep2? Probably staying in Kinzo's room to pretend Kinzo was alive. Latter Rosa came and agreed to provide fake alibi for them (she knew Kinzo was dead all along). Genji was the one who killed Kanon and Jessica as Genji probably left Kinzo's room for a while. Shannon did not want to believe Genji as murderer and did not dare to disclose Genji's leaving in front of anyone since that exposed Rosa was covering her as well. She did not want to be a suspect, nor suspecting anyone.

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Gohda did try to say the truth, but he was panicking too much and simply couldn't spit it out, which is pretty much what we saw when Rosa and Battler were talking with him. And of course Genji didn't trust them - I'm arguing that Genji's the one who killed George and Shannon in Episode 2 as he decided that those two couldn't be trusted, they would betray him, and so he had to take them out first.
Gohda was too stupid to leave with Genji and Shannon again if he witnessed they killed both Nanjo and Kumasawa. Any normal person would know telling the truth to Rosa was the safest way to preserve the life than going out with murderer again.

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Eva left for a bit and left Krauss and Natsuhi to themselves, who died. The theory is that Nanjo left the mansion, killed George, returned, and killed Natsuhi and Krauss when Eva was away with a headache or whatever.
I have to say it works. Except that George could not kill Nanjo in this episode (I suppose Nanjo could probably ensure George was dead when he checked his body if he killed George). I could not think of any reason why Nanjo could paint the number in this case.

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Not really, if you think about it harder. While Rosa would immeadiately suspect Genji and Shannon in that scenario, her problem here is that she doesn't know whom else to suspect. If she shoots Shannon and Genji, and then it turns out that Gohda and Kumasawa are in it too, she's dead, and it's possible that she's also concerned with what might happen to Maria. Therefore, she kicks out all the servants, barricades herself with Maria and Battler (whom she trusts until the letter appears), and thus has a defensive advantage that she doesn't beforehand from the servants. Note that she kicks out Shannon and Genji first and frankly maintains a huge paranoia of all the servants, not just Kanon.
I was not saying Rosa shooting Genji when she first met Genji and Shannon. I was saying after Rosa, Battler and Maria checked the bodies of Shannon, George, Gohda, Kumasawa and Nanjo, Rosa could expose the fact that Genji was never having any alibi in the second twilight and pointed the gun to him. Rather she just said farewell to him. Consider her paranoia, why was it the case?
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Old 2009-11-06, 10:18   Link #4114
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Well, I've never paid too much attention to the mystery aspect of the story, but it's very easy to assign a motive for George.

After all, episode 4 goes right out and says: George is willing, with little hesitation, to kill everyone if it means that he and Shannon can be together.

So his motive doesn't just have to be money. It can be that he was starting to panic. Maybe he was under increasing pressure to marry someone else. Maybe they were threatening to fire Shannon/send her somewhere else/kill her if he didn't comply (a possible explanation for a second competing Rokkenjima murderer?)

It seems a bit too obvious and for that reason I'm a little skeptical.

For a similar reason, though episode 4 makes it hard for me to imagine Jessica as the murderer, if she'd kill herself before she'd sacrifice anyone else.
His theory involved George killing Shannon, really counterproductive if George's motive was to get rid of any obstacle to his and Shannon's marriage.

And to kill ALL people on Rokkenjima. George was apparently having paranoia to believe that the whole family was working against the two little lovers.

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Uhmm I can't remember many theories...

There are some who thinks Battler killed or somehow caused the death of Asumu (it did happened six years before, and Beatrice said that because of his sin someone died)
Another theory is that Battler made a promise with someone in Rokkenjima. But then Battler totally forgetting it decided to never attend the family meetings. (Beatrice said: "not remembering is also your sin")

Can't think of other possibilities right now...
I can see that you don't buy my theory of Battler's sin to the extent that you just forgot about it completely.

Last edited by ijriims; 2009-11-06 at 11:17.
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Old 2009-11-06, 10:27   Link #4115
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lol sorry I don't remember ^^; but it's not like I read all the things that are written in the threads, so maybe I missed it?
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Old 2009-11-06, 10:45   Link #4116
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my memory fails...
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Old 2009-11-06, 11:17   Link #4117
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For theory on Battler's sin, I think of a new one now: six years ago around the time Asumu died, Asumu told Battler that she was not her mother, and reminded him to forgive Rudolf, accepting the step-mother and do not leave Ushiromiya family since other people (like Maria) need him, but Battler rejected it completely and emotionally suppressed this memory. After Battler rejected Ushiromiya family, in effect abandoning Maria, if he has been remaining in the family, Maria would not have lapsed into the current "black witch". Since Beatrice doing all these to save Maria from this cruel world, if Maria had Battler beside her, Beatrice did not need to enact all these murders and plot. At the same time, Battler's leaving also made some family members and Beatrice believe that this whole family was broken. Battler's sin was to disregard how his abandonment of Ushiromiya family had affected the whole family. but now he still could not remember Asumu had told him before.
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Old 2009-11-06, 11:33   Link #4118
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With all the discussion on murders and the mystery side of the story I've never really seen anything about certain questions that I've wondered about since I read the episode, particularly regarding Ange and her world, which (presumably) is not subject to the whole "Schrodinger's Cat" state of Rokkenjima.

The overall timeline of Ange's journey confuses me in how it relates to her visits to the meta-world. Granted there's no way I can know the specifics of how the meta-world works or how one is invited to observe the game. But no matter what way I look at it, it seems as if either there is a strange unexplained time gap or there are two versions of Ange that entered the meta-world.

If I list the events in chronological order (with respect to the meta world/to 1998) as I understand them, it goes as follows:

(Flashback) Ange in 1998 meets Bernkastel at the top of a skyscraper. She agrees to help.

ANGE is taken to the ceremony room where she bursts in and interrupts the proceedings before Battler can sign. At the beginning of episode 4, she is formally invited to the meta-world to observe.

In 1998, Ange's physical body survived the fall. She goes on a journey to find the truth about Rokkenjima.

Events progress, and eventually in the meta-world Beatrice attempts to deny Battler's existence. When ANGE attempts to protest, she is somehow banished from the room by Beatrice.

Where did this ANGE go when she was banished, and when the game was put on hold?

In 1998, Ange finishes her journey and discovers true magic. From Rokkenjima she goes directly to the Golden Land and shatters it. Then Beatrice and Battler resume their game, Ange breaks the rule she was never supposed to break, and she is erased.

Does this imply that Ange entered the timeline of the meta-world two times? Once when she jumped from the skyscraper, and once when she directly went from Rokkenjima to the Golden land at the end of episode 4? If this is the case, as mentioned in the previous question, what happened to the ANGE that was banished? Is she still hanging around somewhere?

Or if there is only one ANGE in the meta-world, then how does one explain the timeline? When she first entered at the end of episode 3, she hadn't reached the full understanding she required to be able to do what she did at the end of episode 4. And how does her second entrance to the Golden Land/meta-world make sense if she was already there?


My current understanding suggests the theory that the first version to enter was a sort of "meta-Ange," and the second time was her actual physical self forcing her way into the Golden Land. In which case, there might still be a banished meta-Ange somewhere?

Also, there was a scene (I believe it was in the boatman's shop) where she saw someone or something that the man couldn't see, and it gave her a sudden inspiration for what she was supposed to be doing. I never really could gather any idea as to what exactly it was she saw or why it was important.
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Old 2009-11-06, 11:39   Link #4119
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Not only Kyrie's voice was heard, but also Krauss. If Shannon killed people in the parlor as you say, then how Krauss, Kanon, Nanjo and Kyrie could act as if nothing happened when Shannon was with him.
Shannon intimidated them, plain and simple, and they kept quiet. Was it logical for them to do so? Possibly, as I doubt they were too sure at that point what their plan was.


Quote:
In fact, it was quite difficult to imitate someone's voice which others are familiar with. Shannon imposting as Kyrie was unlikely. Kanon and Nanjo did talked on the phone with Jessica and Kumasawa.
Possibly. Maybe a tape-recorder? I just cannot accept that Kyrie talking with Battler was completely legit due to her reaction with the Siestas opening fire on her. Kyrie I view as the kind of person who'll play any move necessary to win and won't just sit and collapse out of despair.

Quote:
If what Hideyoshi and Kanon saw was a body, then this red texts applied for Shannon as well, if it applies for Kyrie and Rosa. As Hideyoshi said half of Shannon's head was blasted off, with half of her face remains. I suppose it did not require checking at all. Or are you saying that was not corpse at all?
No, that wasn't a corpse, that was Shannon, possibly made to look dead, according to what I believe. That trick can't work for Kyrie as Kyrie's corpse was in a much more easy to see place and if the manga is a source, Kyrie's face was completely caved in, unlike Shannon.

Quote:
Gohda was too stupid to leave with Genji and Shannon again if he witnessed they killed both Nanjo and Kumasawa. Any normal person would know telling the truth to Rosa was the safest way to preserve the life than going out with murderer again.
You're right, Gohda's behavior was irrational. That's the point. He brown-pantsed up and just went along with what the killers demanded out of sheer panicking as humans do in extremely stressful situations.

Quote:
I was not saying Rosa shooting Genji when she first met Genji and Shannon. I was saying after Rosa, Battler and Maria checked the bodies of Shannon, George, Gohda, Kumasawa and Nanjo, Rosa could expose the fact that Genji was never having any alibi in the second twilight and pointed the gun to him. Rather she just said farewell to him. Consider her paranoia, why was it the case?
Battler. Rosa couldn't trust Battler completely either, so she had to worry about Battler trying something if she accused Genji.

And as for your sin: it sounds like a variation of the pony theory, only this time it's done with the family and Maria instead. But I have some problems with it, simply being the fact that I can't tell from you which one is actually Beatrice:
1. If Kyrie is Beatrice, why does she give a damn about Maria?
2. If Rosa is Beatrice, what's her motive for killing everyone - killing the Ushiromiya family to save Maria from this cruel world? What does that even mean?

If the murders are done to save Maria, than it's more logical that Rosa is Beatrice, and Rosa's just too suspicious in my books to identify her as the culprit - I view Rosa and Eva to be really about the same, in that both are heavily shown to be the culprit.
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Old 2009-11-06, 11:40   Link #4120
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I think the metaworld is not limited to Beatrice's world. We have seen in some secret tea parties that Bern and Lambda meet in some sort of metaphysical kakera.

Also they said they have been invited by Beatrice, which means they usually can be in some place else.

Since Ange is Bern's piece even if she's banished from Beatrice's world somehow, she can still be somewhere in the metaworld.
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