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Old 2009-11-10, 22:16   Link #4181
rogerpepitone
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I think that a trap is viable for Kanon's death in episode 1:
1) The boiler room was poorly lit.
2) Nobody had been in there up to that point.

Those two points make a trap set off by a tripwire (or alternately a pull-cord) possible. (It's still very chancy, though.)
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Old 2009-11-10, 22:17   Link #4182
Workworkwork
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This discussion about non-small bombs has opened my eyes to the truth.

Beatrice is really the atomic bomb, and Battler is a scientist haunted by guilt! It all makes sense now!
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Old 2009-11-10, 22:21   Link #4183
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Originally Posted by Tsuyi View Post
Wait, noo I thought we were talking about radio-waves as in some kind of device like telecommunication/cellphones, like someone from outside was communicating with him without actually being on the island. My language skills are poor, I'm sorry xD I didn't mean the waves set off a bomb or anything (I don't know the mechanics for that type of thing.) I imagined the bomb to be some sort of timed device. The bomb to kill him, and the radio-waves, being a part of the talking, unrelated to his death.
Aah sorry then I misunderstood. Timed bombs are not denied of course, 'though they would fall under the "trap" definition.

Radiowaves also are valid as long as they cannot physically interfere with the inside.
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Old 2009-11-10, 22:26   Link #4184
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Another idea, what if we're too focused on bombs?

Rokkenjima is an isolated island, and in it are three hotel-sized buildings which presumably are fully powered. The power requirements for Rokkenjima are simply huge, considering the number of people it has. Consider if the storm causes a problem in the electric grid, snapping a power cable, perhaps, or a generator malfunction. The generator (in the boiler room?) at this point should be gas powered (which means its flammable *and* explosive). It should also be very, very large. Large enough to cause a substantial catastrophe, or kill anyone unfortunate enough to be close to it in the case of malfunction.

Alternatively, a snapped power cable landing on the ground, conveniently covered with water, due to rain.

In the first, it would also explain the event of the disturbance in the boiler room in Ep1. Someone was messing with the generator, potentially rigging it to explode at some time. It would also explain why if you're inside the mansion after a certain point (where the boiler room is), you die. Obviously, while an explosion is assured, there won't be a definite time, so it is in effect *both* a timebomb and a murder method dependent on chance (only that it will happen "soon").
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Old 2009-11-10, 22:36   Link #4185
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None of the images we've seen of Rokkenjima show power cables. Either each building has its own generator, or the power cables are underground.
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Old 2009-11-10, 22:47   Link #4186
Neofio3
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Originally Posted by rogerpepitone View Post
None of the images we've seen of Rokkenjima show power cables. Either each building has its own generator, or the power cables are underground.
None of the images we've seen of the island show the mansions from the top-down either, but they're there.

In any case, an exploding boiler set as the "catastrophe", with Unknown culprit X messing with it, as supported by episode 1 and Kanon's murder scene, seems viable. It would move suspicions out of an unlikely (and frankly unstoppable) freak event like a landslide or tidal wave, back into a human murderer being capable of taking everyone out and erasing all evidence, while still being physically absent (or dead).

Also, I wouldn't put it past Ryushiki to have it as a "Shining" reference (a hotel with a checkered history is destroyed through a boiler explosion). Taken as that, Maria can be a Shining reference as well (a troubled child who can see spirits).
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Last edited by Neofio3; 2009-11-10 at 23:04.
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Old 2009-11-10, 23:55   Link #4187
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Hmmm. If that was the case...Kinzo being burned in the boiler room...while it brings people down there, it would distract them from checking anything in the room because their focus would be on the burnt corpse.
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Old 2009-11-11, 10:27   Link #4188
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You know, there is something that had been bugging me since a while.

In the Golden Land, Ange actually used magic, even though Beato's red statement specifically prohibited magic besides her own. So, I ask. What are the odds of Beatrice actually being Ange? I remember she said something about the incidewnt being her fault, or something like that.

For that matters. How much of the red text is actually relevant?

The red truth can be used for anything, right? From saying simple things such as your own name to deny theories in blue. Just to troll, since Battler has shown that he can use the red truth why he didn't try to deny witches in red?

Unlikely but I reckon it would have been funny.
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Old 2009-11-11, 10:40   Link #4189
Jan-Poo
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Ange used "real" magic. Whatever this mean, you can assume that the "magic" Ange used is not the kind of "magic" that Beatrice denied in red.
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Old 2009-11-11, 10:59   Link #4190
Workworkwork
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Originally Posted by Isekaijin View Post
You know, there is something that had been bugging me since a while.

In the Golden Land, Ange actually used magic, even though Beato's red statement specifically prohibited magic besides her own. So, I ask. What are the odds of Beatrice actually being Ange? I remember she said something about the incidewnt being her fault, or something like that.

For that matters. How much of the red text is actually relevant?

The red truth can be used for anything, right? From saying simple things such as your own name to deny theories in blue. Just to troll, since Battler has shown that he can use the red truth why he didn't try to deny witches in red?

Unlikely but I reckon it would have been funny.
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Ange used "real" magic. Whatever this mean, you can assume that the "magic" Ange used is not the kind of "magic" that Beatrice denied in red.
You guys aren't looking at it deep enough. Beatrice herself paralyzed the use of her own magic by claiming she could not revive Sakutarou. "Her" magic might simply refer to her own crippled Endless magic, because she made MARIA deny Sakutarou.
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Old 2009-11-11, 11:19   Link #4191
ijriims
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Isekaijin View Post
You know, there is something that had been bugging me since a while.

In the Golden Land, Ange actually used magic, even though Beato's red statement specifically prohibited magic besides her own. So, I ask. What are the odds of Beatrice actually being Ange? I remember she said something about the incidewnt being her fault, or something like that.
IMO, Beatrice's magic for Maria was that Maria could find her happiness, mother's love, friends in Golden Land (after Maria died. Iillusion, white lie). But she knew that Sakutarou could not be resurrected even in Golden Land since Beatrice and Maria believed that Rosa tore Sakutarou into pieces and that's the end.

Ange brought Sakutarou back to Golden Land because she saw Sakutarou in captain's cabin. The fact that Rosa did resurrect Sakutarou was made known to 1998 Ange. Beatrice's magic could not do so because she did not believe Rosa remade Sakutarou, while Ange could do so because she sincerely believed so and was the truth indeed.

This was regarded as true magic since it achieved what was deemed impossible by Beatrice. "Magic" indeed, since it was a miracle from the Beatrice's point of view. Being miraculous is what defines magic, right?

Last edited by ijriims; 2009-11-11 at 11:51.
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Old 2009-11-11, 15:02   Link #4192
Jan-Poo
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You guys aren't looking at it deep enough. Beatrice herself paralyzed the use of her own magic by claiming she could not revive Sakutarou. "Her" magic might simply refer to her own crippled Endless magic, because she made MARIA deny Sakutarou.
What are you talking about?

-This is my Golden Land. A world where any magic other than my own definitely cannot exist.

Of course "her magic" refers to her own magic, but she denied any other magic.
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Old 2009-11-11, 15:07   Link #4193
Ithekro
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Beatrice's magic is the magic of the golden witch and her endless magic...since Ange is "Beatrice" in 1998...she has the same magic...therefore she is using Beatrice's magic and does not defy the red text.

Red text suggests that the magic of Bern and Lambda can't interfere.
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Old 2009-11-11, 15:18   Link #4194
Jan-Poo
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Why Beatrice would try to pull trick in that situation? She said that because she was genuinely convinced that Ange couldn't perform magic there. Also Ange herself said that her "magic" is different than Beatrice's magic.

To me the simple solution is that Ange's magic isn't magic at all, she just calls it magic.

It is most probable that what Ange showed to Maria was Sakutarou, and I mean a real Sakutarou in cloth and cottons. That's what Ange means by "real magic".
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Old 2009-11-11, 16:11   Link #4195
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Originally Posted by Isekaijin View Post
Just to troll, since Battler has shown that he can use the red truth why he didn't try to deny witches in red?
And what if the attempt failed? If he'd tried to deny the existence of witches in red but couldn't, he'd have ended up confirming their existence. You seem so sure the Anti-Fantasy side will win in the end. That's probably the way it will go, but for the sake of playing Devil's Advocate for a moment...

I wouldn't be too surprised if, in the end, Battler is able to tear apart the second, third, fourth, however many there will be games, only to get stuck back at the first. Natsuhi's death may have been brought about with an opponent's gun leveled at her, but there were no unidentified corpses or body-double tricks and all of the survivors had alibis (all stated in red). Unless someone has a way around that...
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Old 2009-11-11, 16:22   Link #4196
Ithekro
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All unidentified corpes have their identity proven...but what about the identified corpses? Are they proven to be dead (corpses)? Also being classified as "dead" is a great alibi. No one would suspect someone that is suppose to be dead of killing someone else.
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Old 2009-11-11, 17:32   Link #4197
Sute443
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All unidentified corpes have their identity proven...but what about the identified corpses? Are they proven to be dead (corpses)? Also being classified as "dead" is a great alibi. No one would suspect someone that is suppose to be dead of killing someone else.
Aw, tore through that one so soon? Darn. But yeah, Kanon's alibi in the first game really was a good one.
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Old 2009-11-13, 04:09   Link #4198
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Fair warning: This theory has a lot of problems and is merely a "first attempt" to actually untangle ep4's death order. I actually have several orders I'm considering.

Before I start with the theories themselves, here's the general reasoning:

Spoiler for How I'm Approaching Ep4:

Spoiler for Okay, So What?:

From this, imagine two scenarios: "George Dead" and "George Alive."
Spoiler for George Dead:

Spoiler for George Alive:

These are just kernels of ideas. I think I can come up with much better ones as I narrow down just who could have died and when. I want to stress that this is 90% guesswork based on a few shaky assumptions. For instance, if "Kyrie's group" doesn't refer to the people shown in the magic scene, this entire thing is rubbish.

There's also very little to explain the differences in killing methods, though I gave it a go.

Still, I figured someone ought to give it a try.
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Old 2009-11-13, 20:41   Link #4199
Arkwright
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Only recently have I begun thinking about the mystery aspect of the story. In order to start making a theory I began with some basic core assumptions that I would build it around. One of those is based on analyzing the red truth for the final mystery: "Battler's killer in episode 4 is not human."

However I find it hard to believe he was killed by a trap or a bomb or something like that. If there is a "time bomb" or something similar in Rokkenjima then why was there no sign of such an event in any of the police investigations, and why did Eva survive in episode 3 since presumably she didn't actually know where Kuwadorian was?

My thoughts:

Spoiler for Ep4 final mystery analysis:


Edit: Actually, now that I look at it written down like this, I can understand the idea of a trap set specifically for Battler. If the person who set the trap (Beatrice) is dead, then their dead body is here, on the island, and that doesn't prevent them from "killing" Battler.

I still don't really see a time bomb due to the above reasons.
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Old 2009-11-13, 21:14   Link #4200
Tsuyi
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For the animal theory, wouldn't it be the animal who killed Battler, and not Beatrice? Considering the red text in which she specifically says that she will kill him. After all, an animal can not be viewed the same way as an object or a weapon, it is another life form altogether....
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