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Old 2009-11-24, 18:33   Link #4281
Ssol
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What bothers me is that Kanon made the comment about Shannon being chosen in episode 1. Does this imply that there have been other games before this?
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Old 2009-11-24, 18:34   Link #4282
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What if they talk about Beatrice's messages in the bottles? She probably wrote a lot of them before the events in the game.
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Old 2009-11-24, 18:34   Link #4283
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by Ssol View Post
What bothers me is that Kanon made the comment about Shannon being chosen in episode 1. Does this imply that there have been other games before this?
There've been hints about that, too, as I recall.

Who was Beatrice playing against before the games we see? ...Kinzo?
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Old 2009-11-24, 18:38   Link #4284
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
There've been hints about that, too, as I recall.

Who was Beatrice playing against before the games we see? ...Kinzo?
She never refers to the first game as 'the first game' in red I don't think. Just that she opened this game to fight Battler.
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Old 2009-11-24, 18:40   Link #4285
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Originally Posted by Ssol View Post
She never refers to the first game in red I don't think. Just that she opened this game to fight Battler.
Indeed.

...As usual, the question remains: What the hell is going on?
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Old 2009-11-24, 18:46   Link #4286
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There's nothing odd about that EP1 remark, right? Aren't Shannon and Kanon supposed to know about the Epitaph and all the crazy ways of Kinzo? Perhaps they were internally surprised to find out that he wasn't just being insane, and now their lives really will be at risk, but it's not like it was their first time exposed to the workings of the ritual like it was for Battler.
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Old 2009-11-25, 19:54   Link #4287
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
What if they talk about Beatrice's messages in the bottles? She probably wrote a lot of them before the events in the game.
Or they could be talking about near-death experiences they've been through at some point in their lives. They way Shannon described the Golden Land reminds me a lot of how some people describe the afterlife while they're almost dying. I've never been through such thing, but people who have usually describe everything like Shannon's Golden Land.

Well, I could be very wrong here. I have to replay EP4, since I don't remember the dungeon scene very well.
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Old 2009-12-01, 15:30   Link #4288
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Forgive my crack-filled theory here. I just wanted to post it since its been bothering me after I read through the Tea Party for this episode.

"There are no more than 17 Humans on this Island."

Now, what if, without the them knowing, that people in the Ushiromiya family were demon-hybrids? You could knock them off as humans with the red then, but they can also count as humans with the red as well. Then they're are a number of people you can count as culprits since their are plenty of slots. You could have strange occurrences happening, but the murders could still be executed by humans (demon hunters maybe? nah, thats too much).

Then I started thinking about what this could do with Battler's sin and my head exploded. I'll have to get back to you guys on that.

Well, there is my crack theory.
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Old 2009-12-01, 16:25   Link #4289
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As an anti-fantasy advocate, I reject that answer. Demons don't exist within the gameboard as far as I'm concerned.
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Old 2009-12-02, 00:10   Link #4290
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Originally Posted by Altima of the Gates View Post
Forgive my crack-filled theory here. I just wanted to post it since its been bothering me after I read through the Tea Party for this episode.

"There are no more than 17 Humans on this Island."

Now, what if, without the them knowing, that people in the Ushiromiya family were demon-hybrids? You could knock them off as humans with the red then, but they can also count as humans with the red as well. Then they're are a number of people you can count as culprits since their are plenty of slots. You could have strange occurrences happening, but the murders could still be executed by humans (demon hunters maybe? nah, thats too much).

Then I started thinking about what this could do with Battler's sin and my head exploded. I'll have to get back to you guys on that.

Well, there is my crack theory.
Well, there's always the possibility that the word "humans" contains a second meaning for the character who spoke.
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Old 2009-12-02, 01:12   Link #4291
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Tch... No matter how I see it, each game is bloody hard...

First, we have some people witnessing Beatrice in EP2 and Battler being the only reliable witness actually SAW HER in EP4! Doesn't that tell us already that she does exist as a piece?

Then we have the bottles containing the mysteries of EP1 and EP2... Who is the "Beatrice" who Maria adores and the one who wrote in her Grimoire? And how come Rosa doesn't know anything about her?

The PIN 07151129... Aside from it being Battler's birthday the four first numbers... I don't know what else to think... I remember something about having to call outside by dialing 0 before the number... Maybe it's a telephone number or something...

And having raised only one of her hands in the last mystery... Does it mean there is another mystery almost impossible to understand?

But what bugs me the most is Battler's statement of You can't trust any words that aren't red. Does that mean that everything else might be fake?? We have almost no solid foundation in which place suppositions. In normal circumstances we could utilize their characters to figure out more or less who could have done it... But now what can we trust? "Without love it can't be seen" Are we supposed to believe both of the results of the cat inside the box?

It's useless! It's all useless!!! Dammit...

Well, I didn't come here just to whine. So I say some ideas in blue.

Kanon's true name is Ushiromiya Battler. He is the son of Ushiromiya Asumu, who was put in an orphanage by reasons I refuse to explain. Having lived in the mansion, there are plenty of opportunities for him to commit a sin. He also knows well where the gold is hidden and a secret passage which leads to it and to other locations. His dubious deaths trough the first to the fourth game are also explained that way. He "killed" his own name and somehow survived the first and third game. He knows who Beatrice is and what he did to her.

Shannon is not Beatrice. I deny her involvement with the murders.

Due to the fact that both Kyrie and Jessica's stories matched, I accuse Jessica or Kyrie of being Beatrice. One threatened the other and forced her to lie to Battler to throw him off, then killed her. Kumasawa and Gohda were killed by either Jessica or George and then "Beatrice" killed George.


And then...

Beatrice's true identity is Ushiromiya Jessica! In Battler's test she is the only one I could think of who could pass off as Beatrice without Battler noticing who she is. That is because he knew Kyrie for having gone to Ange's birthdays. Jessica was the one who had completely changed in his eyes. Jessica hasn't got the cunning mind that Kyrie has. She wouldn't be able to form a credible lie under pressure. Kyrie must have given Battler some kind of clue in her last call. Probably when she mentioned Asumu


There are my two cents for today... Guess I'll reread EP1 and EP2... There are many things I don't like about this theory.

Beatrice's last mystery is what I don't understand... If everyone is dead, how could someone kill Battler? I don't think Ryukishi would make loopholes such as "the sky or an small rock outside the island don't count as being inside the island" If there is another mystery harder than that... then I'll have to accept witches exist...
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Old 2009-12-02, 01:57   Link #4292
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Originally Posted by Isekaijin View Post
But what bugs me the most is Battler's statement of You can't trust any words that aren't red. Does that mean that everything else might be fake?? We have almost no solid foundation in which place suppositions.
This actually supports a theory I've been thinking about for a while.
I think the red only represents something that the speaker believes to be the truth. I'm not saying that the red is "lie". Maybe some of it is true, but not everything.
I know that without the red, we have no foundations for our theories, but I have this hunch that not everything is true.
Also, if Battler's goal is to deny witches, then the very fact that he believes the red and uses the blue is already preventing him from winning.

So, in a nutshell, the red works like the blue, so some of the things said in red could be mere theories.
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Old 2009-12-02, 02:31   Link #4293
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This actually supports a theory I've been thinking about for a while.
I think the red only represents something that the speaker believes to be the truth. I'm not saying that the red is "lie". Maybe some of it is true, but not everything.
I know that without the red, we have no foundations for our theories, but I have this hunch that not everything is true.
Also, if Battler's goal is to deny witches, then the very fact that he believes the red and uses the blue is already preventing him from winning.

So, in a nutshell, the red works like the blue, so some of the things said in red could be mere theories.
In that case, shouldn't Battler be able to say "I am the son of Ushiromiya Asumu" in red because he believes it to be true?
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Old 2009-12-02, 03:47   Link #4294
Jan-Poo
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Exactly. Red doesn't work that way. We have not one but two facts that prove it. Beatrice also failed to repeat something in red.

BTW, the fact that you can't trust anything that isn't red doesn't mean that anything that isn't red is fake. This red would be effective even if everything was real. But as long as there isn't a full certainty that something is real then you can't completely trust it. Red is the only thing you can trust under this perspective.
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Old 2009-12-02, 03:50   Link #4295
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Beatrice also presumably believes in witches (EP3 mindscrew aside), so she'd be holding on to game-ending red right there if belief was all it took...

(I guess it ties in well to Jan-Poo's comics, though.)
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Old 2009-12-02, 03:52   Link #4296
Jan-Poo
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Actually she probably can say that "witches exist". Since she was already able to use magic and golden land in red, it means that they all have a different meaning, or they actually exist.
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Old 2009-12-02, 03:56   Link #4297
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Probably should have fit that better to the win conditions.

How about "witches exist and committed the crime"?
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Old 2009-12-02, 21:09   Link #4298
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With the whole "witches" in red thing, it really boils down to what the damn definition of the word is.

For example, would someone who considers them self a witch, but lack magic of any kind, truly be a witch?
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Old 2009-12-02, 22:20   Link #4299
Metaler
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In that case, shouldn't Battler be able to say "I am the son of Ushiromiya Asumu" in red because he believes it to be true?
Maybe, but he was being mindscrewed by Beato, from what I remember... Maybe he started to get suspicious at a certain point in the scene, and he subconsciously stopped believing that he was Asumu's son.

Well, I know my theory about the red sounds crazy... I just think that the red is a little too convenient.
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Old 2009-12-03, 00:20   Link #4300
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Originally Posted by Metaler
Well, I know my theory about the red sounds crazy... I just think that the red is a little too convenient.
This has likely been mentioned already, but the anti-fantasy position sort of has a suicidal trump - since the idea this red, absolute truth is something that can only exist with the magic of witches and demons, in essence if we are out to completely deny everything then we *could* discard the red truth as ultimately false - since it is derived from a source that doesn't exist. Consider it the "final option" for the die-hard anti-fantasist.

Of course, this then leaves us absolutely nothing - we cannot ever get to the bottom of the mystery; the alternative is to trust to Beato's sportsmanship regarding the rules. Well, except perhaps the TIPS. It's notable that they still do not update until Battler has seen the death with his own eyes.

Finally, one more thought on the red, regarding Ange and Beatrice's confrontation. I think this provides the most evidence that there is something more to the red.
Beatrice states that:
"This is my Golden Land. A world where any magic other than my own definitely cannot exist."
"With my magic, Sakutarou could not be revived. Your stuffed animal is a special stuffed animal. The only one in the world, made by Rosa for her daughter's birthday."
Note very carefully that "with my" is not red. There's deeper implications to this phrase, seeing as Ange was able to revive Sakutarou. An inconsistency in how the red is used? Or perhaps a testament to Ange's strength? After all, if the red is the absolute truth, then Ange's magic could not work in Beato's Golden Land, and the magic that revived Sakutarou was Beatrice's.

Perhaps the TIP about Mariage Sorciere might help - it notes that "From them, a groundbreaking magical compendium was created, and Beatrice, whose magical power had declined, was given an immense new magical power." Perhaps the red distinguishes between Beato's magic per se, and the magic she gained from Mariage Sorciere?

If we take the anti-fantasy stance, does this inconsistency even matter?


As to Battler's origin, I am leaning towards the son-of-Kyrie camp. Granted, there is the miscarriage/stillbirth ambiguity in the wording, but recall Kyrie is certainly in somewhat of a rush, if not a rage, when she declares this; it's quite possible she might have simply selected the wrong word. As I hear in the anime, the word for stillbirth is used instead. Also, like some have pointed out, Battler and Ange share hair colour - but that might be Rudolf's genes at work.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Isekajin
Kanon's true name is Ushiromiya Battler. He is the son of Ushiromiya Asumu, who was put in an orphanage by reasons I refuse to explain... he "killed" his name and somehow survived...
This sounds crazy enough to work, though granted a bit of a stretch. By "killing" the name Kanon and going back to his true identity I suppose Kanon/Battler could survive death.
The only potential hole I could maybe rip in that is that we do get a number of red truths stating that none of the deaths were faked, and we definitely have a corpse for Kanon in Episode 1 and 3. However, I'm not exactly sure I recall how they line up... would have to refer back to chronotrig's post that lists all the red truths from Episode 4...

Quote:
The PIN 07151129...
Some people noted in the Episode 3 discussion that it's also an allusion to some fitting Biblical verses, but I doubt that helps us in the mystery.

It's the same number that is written in blood on the door back in Episode 3 - does that mean Eva was supposed to see it? Remember, 1998 Ange exists in the kakera of the events of Episode 3, so Eva would have been witness to the numbers on the door.

The family members who received the bank PIN, on the other hand, would never draw that connection - but if Eva remembered them and ever saw that PIN number, she might have.

A completely random theory that popped up is - what if the money is actually from Eva herself (assuming she is the culprit of Episode 3, or at least caused some of the murders). Perhaps feeling guilty for the surviving family she used the number she saw as a PIN?

Finally, crossposting from a discussion on Maria that went more into Episode 4 in general.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vendredi
We get the revelation in Episode 4 that there are two bottle messages. From the summary we get of the text, the realization is that the first message, that washed up for the fishermen, is a description of Episode 1 - the first game board, with 18 players.

The second message in the bottle, we discover during Episode 4, is the one the police found on the island, outlining Episode 2 with the appearance of Beatrice herself. (or was it the other way round? In any case, the fact of the matter is that these represent the first two episodes). I'm unclear as to what to make of this - are these messages from another kakera? I'm doubtful.

I am more convinced that the various iterations of the games simply represent the "Endless" possibilities that Beatrice is able to create within the single kakera - thus, unlike Higurashi we do not actually have any sort of dimension hopping, time resets, or the like (save for the one exception of Ange)- all the various games (except the third) are simply Beato herself presenting various counterfactual scenarios that are played out (whether with magic, or just in the minds of Battler, etc. - however you want to slice it anti-mystery or anti-fantasy wise).

The first two games, our introduction to the situation, simply are the texts of the two bottle messages; the third game results in the kakera with ANGE (the one exception); and the fourth game onward will be scenarios devised by Beato herself.

With this in mind, I am more inclined to regard the multiple games as Purgatory, rather than reincarnation - we have the stakes of Purgatory after all, each of the victims succumbing to one of these deadly sins on the road to the "Golden Land". But I suppose purgatory vs. reincarnation might simply be a matter of semantics; both concepts imply that humans get a second chance after death - which points to some common ground between Buddhists and Catholics.

Protestants are unfortunately left all by their lonesome (seeing as the reject a large number of Catholic doctrines), but perhaps that might be asking too much of a Japanese game.

Last edited by vendredi; 2009-12-03 at 00:31.
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