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Old 2009-12-18, 11:12   Link #4461
ErenselTheJester
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Kinzo is dead. "No one but Kanon can have the title of Kanon. Same thing goes for Kinzo"- said by Lambdadelta in the Fourth Tea Party, I paraphrased a little, but I'm sure that's what she said.
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Old 2009-12-18, 11:18   Link #4462
rogerpepitone
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As for getting the key from Gohda & Kumasawa, perhaps they were willing to give up the key because they thought they were in no danger because they knew the story of what happened in the dining room was just a story. (Recall Gohda's problems describing notKanon's attacks in episode 2 and the first twilight of episode 4. I think he's just not a good liar.)

My question is: How did they get the key before they went into the shed? There's no reason for them to have had the key before dinner (Kumasawa is probably unable to do the heavy lifting required; Gohda is excused from non-chef work around the conference; in episode 1, Kanon was the one who had the shed key); it's also unlikely that one of them would stop to pick it up on the way to the guesthouse; there's no mention of the key being at the shed when they arrived or of anyone going to the mansion to get it.
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Old 2009-12-18, 11:32   Link #4463
ErenselTheJester
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Gohda and Kumasawa saw everything in the dining room, they were so shocked that they couldn't believe what they saw. Also, the key was in Gohda's pocket (I think), how did it get out and back in when the shed can't open without the key from the outside and the key was inside?
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Old 2009-12-18, 11:46   Link #4464
Kaiba
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Originally Posted by ErenselTheJester View Post
Kinzo is dead. "No one but Kanon can have the title of Kanon. Same thing goes for Kinzo"- said by Lambdadelta in the Fourth Tea Party, I paraphrased a little, but I'm sure that's what she said.
Your use of the red (seriously, just use the blue already) is incredibly irritating, particularly when it isn't even correct. Lambadelta never said anything regarding the title of Kinzo.
And at any rate, you're claiming that the magic scenes are completely worthless and that there's in no point in looking at them at all. That's definitely not true. There are definitely clues in the magic scenes, it is just for us to find them, and to ignore them completely is foolhardy.

Quote:
Gohda and Kumasawa saw everything in the dining room, they were so shocked that they couldn't believe what they saw. Also, the key was in Gohda's pocket (I think), how did it get out and back in when the shed can't open without the key from the outside and the key was inside?
Um, yeah, that's what we're all trying to figure out and is the question in the visual novel. What's your point?

While we're at it, the red truths that Lambda stated were:

# The only one who can claim Kanon's name is the person himself!
# A different person cannot claim his name!

Aka. Jack on Kinzo
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Old 2009-12-18, 12:02   Link #4465
LyricalAura
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Originally Posted by rogerpepitone
My question is: How did they get the key before they went into the shed? There's no reason for them to have had the key before dinner (Kumasawa is probably unable to do the heavy lifting required; Gohda is excused from non-chef work around the conference; in episode 1, Kanon was the one who had the shed key); it's also unlikely that one of them would stop to pick it up on the way to the guesthouse; there's no mention of the key being at the shed when they arrived or of anyone going to the mansion to get it.
That's an excellent question. If they did go out of their way to pick up the key from the servants' room, that means a) they knew they weren't in any danger, and b) they knew they were going to be locked in the shed later. It almost guarantees that the whole thing was a pre-planned farce.
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Old 2009-12-18, 14:19   Link #4466
ErenselTheJester
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But then that goes back to question of what happened in the dining room. If Gohda and Kumasawa pre-planned the thing, then what about the dining room? Did they kill everybody? Hmm.... Gohda and Kumasaw are the culprits. At least that's what I'm thinking, but it doesn't make much sense once you consider their own death.
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Old 2009-12-18, 14:32   Link #4467
LyricalAura
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One of the theories about Episode 4 is that a large portion of the cast, including Kumasawa, Gohda, Jessica, and Kyrie's group, was carrying out a previously-arranged performance for the benefit of the people in the guesthouse for Reason X (maybe something in Kinzo's will). The theory goes that the real culprit was taking advantage of the performance to kill everyone off without alerting them that something was actually wrong. From Gohda and Kumasawa's perspective, the people in the dining room may very well have still been alive when they left the mansion.
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Old 2009-12-18, 14:43   Link #4468
ErenselTheJester
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Wow, that's a big theory. Good thing there are no red truths in that game.
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Old 2009-12-18, 14:45   Link #4469
Vega Lyra
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Originally Posted by LyricalAura View Post
One of the theories about Episode 4 is that a large portion of the cast, including Kumasawa, Gohda, Jessica, and Kyrie's group, was carrying out a previously-arranged performance for the benefit of the people in the guesthouse for Reason X (maybe something in Kinzo's will). The theory goes that the real culprit was taking advantage of the performance to kill everyone off without alerting them that something was actually wrong. From Gohda and Kumasawa's perspective, the people in the dining room may very well have still been alive when they left the mansion.
I'm pretty sure Gohda+Kumasawa did not see anyone die. I wouldn't be surprised if there were a good amount of people alive while Battler was talking to SuitBeato at the near-end of EP4.

...What would make Gohda and Kumasawa run to the guesthouse in panic though? Either something very wrong happened, or it's a huge act.
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Old 2009-12-18, 16:46   Link #4470
Knicknevin
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I'm pretty sure Gohda+Kumasawa did not see anyone die. I wouldn't be surprised if there were a good amount of people alive while Battler was talking to SuitBeato at the near-end of EP4.

...What would make Gohda and Kumasawa run to the guesthouse in panic though? Either something very wrong happened, or it's a huge act.
Hmm... there are any number of reasons to suspect Gohda, but I never gave much thought to Kumasawa being a major player in the killings. But still... While speaking to Kumasawa's grandson, Ange found out Kumasawa was actually very interested in the epitaph as well as the chapel, even keeping a picture of the chapel in her home.

Now, I've been thinking that Kumasawa was the original Beatrice and she helped Kinzo out ages ago. Now, apparently the existance of the gold
Spoiler for Ep5 spoiler about Kinzo's gold:
Regardless of the circumstances, the appearance of 'Virgilia' from Kumasawa and Virgilia's status as 'the predecessor Beatrice' would seem like a fairly strong implication of this. If that is the case, Kumasawa might not have been trying to solve the epitaph at all- she may be the one who wrote it.

Now then, if whoever is taking the role of the current Beatrice is serious about testing the Ushiromiyas to see if there is a worthy successor to the head, Kumasawa might certainly be working with her. We don't know much about Gohda, but the lure of money combined with his own seeming cowardace might be enough to get him on board. But at some point Beatrice decided she didn't need the old woman and the cook around anymore.
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Old 2009-12-18, 17:01   Link #4471
ErenselTheJester
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That makes sense.
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Old 2009-12-18, 19:58   Link #4472
Ronove
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Originally Posted by Vega Lyra View Post
I'm pretty sure Gohda+Kumasawa did not see anyone die. I wouldn't be surprised if there were a good amount of people alive while Battler was talking to SuitBeato at the near-end of EP4.

...What would make Gohda and Kumasawa run to the guesthouse in panic though? Either something very wrong happened, or it's a huge act.
Ahh! Remember this whole are is Shrodinger's Cat; a closed box not seen by anyone.
The problem with this episode is that everyone seems to be there and there shouldn't be any danger at all.
One person holding a gun couldn't control a group of 14 could they? Almost impossible, unless they hold machine guns that came from the pits from the floor. Unless we say small bombs while they were chewing their food...BOOM!
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Old 2009-12-18, 22:05   Link #4473
ErenselTheJester
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Truth be told, there aren't really any red truths to this game and as much as I would love to dabble in its mysteries, there's no real point to it. Anyone can make a theory and would still be considered since there is no argument against it.
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Old 2009-12-18, 23:28   Link #4474
Metaler
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Sorry, Erensel, but I think you're missing the entire point of Umineko... But, nevermind that.

I was actually thinking that if the cousins were in the guesthouse through most of EP4 and that no one really died while they were there, then one of the kids must've been on the culprit's side. My bet is on Maria, since she is highly connected to Beatrice.
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Old 2009-12-19, 00:01   Link #4475
ErenselTheJester
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Sorry, Erensel, but I think you're missing the entire point of Umineko... But, nevermind that.

I was actually thinking that if the cousins were in the guesthouse through most of EP4 and that no one really died while they were there, then one of the kids must've been on the culprit's side. My bet is on Maria, since she is highly connected to Beatrice.
I know the point, I just think it is a waste to think of something that doesn't require thinking. Anyways, what happened to Maria? I don't think she did anything after her nap, so where did she go?
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Old 2009-12-19, 00:38   Link #4476
Metaler
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I know the point, I just think it is a waste to think of something that doesn't require thinking. Anyways, what happened to Maria? I don't think she did anything after her nap, so where did she go?
Oh, OK. ^^'

Well... Maria never really did anything... The only time she was left alone was when Battler briefly left the room, but I don't remember why. ^^'
I know that he came back because he heard the phone ring, but Maria had already answered it by the time he returned. Actually, this is kinda weird, since Maria's test was supposed to be the last one... Yet, she was the one called instead of Battler. I wonder if Maria said anything that made the caller conduct her test instead?
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Old 2009-12-19, 01:58   Link #4477
ErenselTheJester
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I think Maria passed the test after that too, but wasn't Battler supposed to be the only one in the island? So where did she go after that?
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Old 2009-12-19, 02:04   Link #4478
Metaler
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Battler found her body in the dining hall where the adults were killed. She was poisoned, at least according to Battler. I suppose she decided to take her own life in the test.
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Old 2009-12-19, 07:14   Link #4479
Kaiba
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Sorry, Erensel, but I think you're missing the entire point of Umineko... But, nevermind that.

I was actually thinking that if the cousins were in the guesthouse through most of EP4 and that no one really died while they were there, then one of the kids must've been on the culprit's side. My bet is on Maria, since she is highly connected to Beatrice.
Two questions:
1. Why do you believe this?
2. And why Maria? Jessica from my perspective is a ton more likely compared to Maria, particularly since she actually called back telling Battler to believe in the witch.
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Old 2009-12-19, 08:22   Link #4480
rogerpepitone
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Maria is one of the few people who could be the last person to die (could get rid of her weapon after death); I think Shannon's the only other one.
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