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Old 2009-04-07, 16:39   Link #801
Jan-Poo
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the only logical explanation is... the informations were disclosed (a version of them at least) but Ryukishi doesn't tell us.
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Old 2009-04-08, 05:48   Link #802
theacefrehley
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Quote:
Originally Posted by izmosmolnar View Post
Spoiler for up to ep4 ch9, quantumtimelines, some more wellfare:
Well,
Real world Ange lives in the world of EP3
Meta Ange takes part in EP4 meta-world, as a 'watcher' of the game.
Mamon 'knowing about the future' is most likely refering to EP3 outcome, or she thinks that EP4 will have a similar 'future' to EP3

It will be a spoiler, but this thread is for this, anyway.

Spoiler:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kitsu View Post
Yes, that's what I also thought. I also think it's strange that Ange was able to get a hold of one of the stakes. Maybe she just believes that she has one (it's an delusion of her). Still....
But what out the other stuff she got like the diary of Maria....wouldn't the police show a bit of interest in that. It would have said a lot abut the relationships inside the family.
I mean it was a mass murder which isn't solved yet any information would be important and let a girl steal this information is a little bit strange.
警察は遺留品捜索の際、大量のガラクタを収集。@
それらは律儀にも捜査終了後、右代宮家に返却された。@
……その中に、真里亞の日記に記されていた挿絵で見たことのあるものを見つけ、持ち帰ったのだ


Here it says that after the police investigated the stuff they got from the island, they returned it to the family and ange found the stake in the middle of the junk. What's the problem? If the police can't find anything with these after many years, they return it.
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Old 2009-04-08, 06:12   Link #803
Kitsu
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Thanks for reminding me. Must have forgot that line~ Explains a lot.
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Old 2009-04-08, 09:05   Link #804
izmosmolnar
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Well I still hardly imagine the police (unless something is vastly different between the Japanese 察 and the European Police deps I'm familiar with), would give back murder weapons, especially in such a famous, notorious murder like Rokkenjima supposed to be . Fair enough if we base it on the events of ep3, the autopsy might reveal that the actual killing blow weren't caused by them stakes, but still. They found them inside the wounds of the corpses, right? I don't know the procedures in Asia, but here in Europe that would make them as an evidence (even if the death was caused by something else), and they'd have to store them away properly, not giving away to the family of the dead as a "junk" once it's over. To obtain one of those, I can only imagine bribing someone with sh*tloads of money, but as I said, I haven't got a clue how corruption-resistant they could be on the Far East.

The other thing you guys were discussing, and that's possibly the only major thing bugging me. Ryukishi himself mentioned it somewhere (I seem to remember I've read it in one of these threads here), how he told his own scripters the whole mistery behind the story more than once, but they forget it time to time. That makes me believe that (unless he is employing semi-retarded people), the whole solution must be some kinda comlicated, not interconnected, probably scenario-wise different answer. I mean if the solution would be a short, sensible answer (like a "the 19th people did it" or "Kinzo did it" etc), people with normal intelligence wouldn't really forget it often then, right?
I don't even try really hard to solve all the misteries plus connect all them together anymore, since the probability I'm going to guess it correctly could only be very-very low (provided that he was telling the truth in first place). I'm just sitting back and enjoying the ride, and hoping he is not going to put too much contradiction in (depends on one's viewpoint of course).

Last edited by izmosmolnar; 2009-04-08 at 09:26. Reason: additional thoughts
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Old 2009-04-08, 10:10   Link #805
theacefrehley
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If the stakes were not the weapons of the crime, and they had a lot of time (months, years) to examine it and found nothing, I don't see why not to return it.

And,
They are 'stylish', so the police could think it was a memento of the family, or a family treasure, and just returned.
Maybe Kinzo's weirdness for that kind of stuff was famous.
It could become money for the family

But, anyway, I'm not a cop, so I can't say for sure.

And also:
この日記帳は、彼女の遺品の中から見つけて私が密かに持ち帰ったもの。

Here it says she took the diary from Maria's stuff in secret
Maybe the stake was the same

Quote:
Originally Posted by izmosmolnar View Post
The other thing you guys were discussing, and that's possibly the only major thing bugging me. Ryukishi himself mentioned it somewhere (I seem to remember I've read it in one of these threads here), how he told his own scripters the whole mistery behind the story more than once, but they forget it time to time. That makes me believe that (unless he is employing semi-retarded people), the whole solution must be some kinda comlicated, not interconnected, probably scenario-wise different answer. I mean if the solution would be a short, sensible answer (like a "the 19th people did it" or "Kinzo did it" etc), people with normal intelligence wouldn't really forget it often then, right?
I don't even try really hard to solve all the misteries plus connect all them together anymore, since the probability I'm going to guess it correctly could only be very-very low (provided that he was telling the truth in first place). I'm just sitting back and enjoying the ride, and hoping he is not going to put too much contradiction in (depends on one's viewpoint of course).
Well,
Maybe it's a cliche but, my guess is that there are many potential killers (each one of kinzo's children, for example) there, and each episode, some random event causes one of them to act, making use of the legend of the Witch. Like rule X for higurashi.
And maybe the mastermind is the one causing the triggers (rule Y), with rule Z covering everything up, putting haze on it.
Maybe that's the causeof the complication

In some thread for umineko I translated some booklets where Bernkastel babbles about it. I think it's worth a look.
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Old 2009-04-08, 10:37   Link #806
Kitsu
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Yup~, read that one. Thanks for translation by the way.
Bernkastel says that she herself isn't able to find those famous rules because everytime the gameboard changes when she thinks she got one. And she says it metaphorical: "The labyrinth changes everytime" You mean that one, right?
Well, I think the trigger after all is the Maria gets a friggin letter from "Beatrice" which causes a lot of uproar between the siblings. Till now she always got one right?
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Old 2009-04-08, 12:25   Link #807
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also, unless ep4 is different, Maria always cries about the rose in the garden.
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Old 2009-04-08, 12:27   Link #808
Kitsu
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Which is necessary because otherwise she won't be alone and can't get the letter. So the rose thing is necessary for our trigger to happen.
So the culprit is the one who "stole" the rose xD
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Old 2009-04-08, 12:32   Link #809
Jan-Poo
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there could actually be many ways for the culprit to get near Maria and give her the letter ^^;

I don't really know why is that rose so important, but it looks like it is somehow one of the key of the mistery.
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Old 2009-04-08, 12:36   Link #810
Kitsu
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Well, Maria was really attached to Battler and was always together with the cousins or at least with Rosa. Also the cousins only left Maria alone because they thought Rosa was with her. I don't think the culprit could easily get a hold of Maria alone if the rose thing didn't happen.
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Old 2009-04-08, 12:57   Link #811
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I'm not sure about that, it looks like Maria has been known this "Beatrice" since a long time, and that means she's been alone with her many times in the past. I know there's still a possibility that she made all that up, but that's kinda improbable. As far as Maria's imagination can go wild, her knowledge of magic doesn't seem something that she came up with on her own. She knows magic circles and demonology, she know the psalms in the bible, where did she learn all that stuff? She might have found books in the library but still... it's very improbable that she even started to delve in black magic without a mentor, without someone or something that triggered that interest.
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Old 2009-04-08, 13:03   Link #812
theacefrehley
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Quote:
Originally Posted by izmosmolnar View Post
Spoiler for up to ep4 ch9, quantumtimelines, some more wellfare:

Let me give me my 2c.


HEAVY SPOILERS

Spoiler:
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Old 2009-04-08, 14:08   Link #813
Kitsu
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
I'm not sure about that, it looks like Maria has been known this "Beatrice" since a long time, and that means she's been alone with her many times in the past. I know there's still a possibility that she made all that up, but that's kinda improbable. As far as Maria's imagination can go wild, her knowledge of magic doesn't seem something that she came up with on her own. She knows magic circles and demonology, she know the psalms in the bible, where did she learn all that stuff? She might have found books in the library but still... it's very improbable that she even started to delve in black magic without a mentor, without someone or something that triggered that interest.
This is what bothers me the most. Who on Rokkenjima would be capable of teaching those things?
Shannon? well I don't think so, also she was properly busy with work.
Kyrie? Well, seemingly no besides she would be busy with doing other things.
Rosa? Before she would do that she would have shot herself in the head a dozen times.
Eva? No way in freaking hell.
Natsuhi? Eh no?
Kumasawa? Hm, it's possible since maybe she know a few things but she would be more likely the Virgillia that appeared
Jessica? Well I don't know...but more likely then Rosa and the other adults, but she doesn't seem to have the knowledge.
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Old 2009-04-08, 14:11   Link #814
Jan-Poo
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Kumasawa is a good option. Then it could have been Kinzo himself, but very unlikely. There is also a chance that a "third Beatrice" exists or existed on Rokkenjima. The "exists" part however requires some wacky theory to make it work after knowing some of the red truths that are revealed on ep4...
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Old 2009-04-08, 14:26   Link #815
Kitsu
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Wait, why am I so against Rosa. The teachings of Beatrice were before
Spoiler for "Ep 4:

Maybe she did all those stuff with her daughter. Or she just has a personality disorder caused by the death of real Beato.
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Old 2009-04-08, 14:27   Link #816
izmosmolnar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theacefrehley View Post
Let me give me my 2c.


HEAVY SPOILERS

Spoiler:

Maybe I didn't put too much emphasis on the
Quote:
up to ep4 ch9
Spoiler for Well you certainly wrote a nice detailed answer! WARNING SPOILERS UP TO EP4 END:

By the way speaking of the rose in the garden, I'm 90% sure Gohda went out to pick up roses for the dessert (I'm probably safe to assume the dessert is the same every episode ) and throw it in his basket or something. If not why would they mention it in first episode that he decorated the dessert with rose?
He is a diligent servant anyway. Can you guys imagine it somehow that he goes there to gather roses which he gonna use for decoration of the dessert, then suddenly discovers a bad shaped rose, and he'd just leave it there? As far as I can tell he used to strive to satisfy everyone, it's not unimaginable to presume he picked the rotten one up too, just to throw it in the rubbish later. He might just want everything neat and tidy.

Last edited by izmosmolnar; 2009-04-08 at 17:40. Reason: additional mumbo-jumbo
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Old 2009-04-08, 14:30   Link #817
Kitsu
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By the way speaking of the rose in the garden, I'm 90% sure Gohda went out to pick up roses for the dessert (I'm probably safe to assume the dessert is the same every episode ) and throw it in his basked or something. If not why would they mention it in first episode that he decorated the dessert with rose?
You watched TahYllis's video "Umineko: First Twilight?" That was so awesome. Well it seems to be logical xD
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Old 2009-04-08, 14:41   Link #818
izmosmolnar
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You watched TahYllis's video "Umineko: First Twilight?" That was so awesome. Well it seems to be logical xD
Yeah I watched all them indeed a short while ago. Some of them are really hilarious ("WHERE IS THE DOOR OPENING GIZMO???" and that's how the fourth twilight happened.)
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Old 2009-04-08, 14:46   Link #819
Kitsu
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Poor Kanon though...he seems too get the role of the victim every time. And we all know the George loves llamas xD
But yeah those are awesome
Spoiler for Ange Episode 4:
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Old 2009-04-09, 06:23   Link #820
theacefrehley
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Quote:
Originally Posted by izmosmolnar View Post

Maybe I didn't put too much emphasis on the

Spoiler for Well you certainly wrote a nice detailed answer! WARNING SPOILERS UP TO EP4 END:

By the way speaking of the rose in the garden, I'm 90% sure Gohda went out to pick up roses for the dessert (I'm probably safe to assume the dessert is the same every episode ) and throw it in his basket or something. If not why would they mention it in first episode that he decorated the dessert with rose?
He is a diligent servant anyway. Can you guys imagine it somehow that he goes there to gather roses which he gonna use for decoration of the dessert, then suddenly discovers a bad shaped rose, and he'd just leave it there? As far as I can tell he used to strive to satisfy everyone, it's not unimaginable to presume he picked the rotten one up too, just to throw it in the rubbish later. He might just want everything neat and tidy.
As for lambda delta: I think what she means is: You are a being of the EP3 timeline/kakera. Even if you save your family, they won't go back to you, but to other 'you', of 1986 of EP4.
Maybe Ange was thinking her 'mind' would fuse with her other self of other kakeras, whatever... And lambda crushed this hope...

If you can copy/paste the part you are in doubt, that'd help, as I could not find anything like what you said.


EDIT: Extra mumbo-jumbo...

Dude, this is not important
You're like trying to find hair in eggs
Just think that EP4 starts after EP3 timeline is over
They watched the human history of EP3 until the year of 3.598 AD, when a meteor destroyed earth. Then EP4 starts
It's like the avatars of the characters are watching movies in the meta world.



As for Rudolf and Kyrie 'killing' the stakes;
I just gave the example
If Ange broke their sshells' and they did not die, maybe it's the same for Kyrie and Rudolf.
And you know what Beatrice's power can do when she played with the siblings in EP2 teaparty, and with Rosa in EP3.
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