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Old 2009-06-10, 15:39   Link #1161
Renall
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A random take on Kanon that occurred to me:

Spoiler for Where's Kanon on the 4th?:

This gives Kanon a good few hours before anyone arrives on the 4th, and 7 or so unaccounted-for hours on the 4th. In episode 1 he says he went to the garden shed "before the rain" which started to fall at 3pm. Other than that, we have no clear proof of his location. So what's he up to?

While a lot of people think of him as a culprit, look at it this way: His body often vanishes. His deaths are never clean, and never seem to properly follow a killer's MO. He is depicted in magic scenes as fighting back all the time. So is he a culprit, or is Kanon investigating the plots that go on and attempting to stop them, possibly influencing which killer winds up being successful in an episode by stopping or failing to stop other killers?

Kanon's body vanishes in ep2 and ep4. In ep2, he trusts in Jessica. In ep4, he trusts in Shannon. Was he wrong to do so? Why doesn't he confide in Battler? He barely knows him, but first impressions would indicate that Battler's a good guy. Is Kanon suspicious of the adults? Is he trying to stop the murders all by himself? What does "Even I..." mean in context? "Even I" need help? "Even I" have weaknesses?

I'm really interested in this view of Kanon. If he's not a culprit, but acting on his own to try to figure out who the culprits are, then teaming up with him might be quite useful for Battler. If nothing else, I wonder just what Kanon is doing all day on the 4th... especially since he has no one to report to.
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Old 2009-06-10, 15:43   Link #1162
Knicknevin
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I've got a partial theory regarding Beato's identity. This is very long, and covers all the games. It is by no means perfect, but still, I've gotten about as far as I can thinking on my own. Any feedback is welcome.

Spoiler for All games.:
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Old 2009-06-10, 16:03   Link #1163
Renall
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A nice theory, though I have a lot of doubts with it. Regardless though, I have to take issue with something you (and Battler) have theorized:

Why are we blaming Eva for ep3? Because we've been told to? Come on, let's not be dupes here: at most, Eva killed Rosa, Maria, Krauss and Natsuhi, and most likely did shoot Battler! And Rosa could've been an accident or even self-defense. Maria could've been killed out of desperation. Krauss and Natsuhi could've gotten suspicious, or Eva could've become paranoid. And Eva was clearly not well when Battler confronted her and got shot.

But all those other deaths? Not Eva. First Twilight doesn't match "her" MO anyway, and she has no reason to even start killing until she finds the gold. That's six deaths she almost certainly didn't do. She wouldn't kill Hideyoshi and George under any circumstances. That's two more. Kyrie and Rudolf probably got into a gunfight with Hideyoshi over his covering for her. Two more. Nanjo can't have been killed by her. And why would she kill Jessica? She didn't even know where she was. The vast majority of the deaths in ep3 weren't Eva, and we don't know if her actions were justifiable (she was having nightmares and may have believed herself to be actually responsible, meaning she might take credit for things she didn't do).

Would it surprise anyone terribly if Eva were actually completely innocent? I can't write off the possibility. It's just too obvious the way she's dangled in front of us as a culprit.
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Old 2009-06-10, 17:05   Link #1164
Jan-Poo
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One thing about times.

It is been stated that Kinzo hasn't met his grandchildren since 2 years, and in another instance Eva laments that "last year" Kinzo didn't show up (she doesn't say he's been missing since more than that). We don't have definitive proof that this is the truth but I think it's improbable this is false. In other words Kinzo attended the family meeting in 1984, the same year the portrait and the epitaph were shown. It is also stated that those two were shown in April, so Kinzo was still alive at that time.
in the year 1985 Kinzo didn't show up and in that very occasion Nanjo told everyone that Kinzo only had 3 months left to live.

Personally I think Kinzo was still alive in 1985. Because it doesn't make sense for Nanjo to say Kinzo was going to die soon if the plan was to cover his death. He'd rather say that Kinzo was in good health.

About Kinzo showing up as corpse. I wonder in what kind of state it was. It certainly didn't pass enough time for him to be a clean skeleton. However it is also almost certain he didn't die just by a few days else there wouldn't be any need to burn the corpse. So I wonder how did they keep his corpse around and preventing the stench from spreading in the house. Did they mummified him? Did they put him in the refrigeratort?

About Jessica and the real Beatrice there is a one year gap. Beatrice died in 1967, Jessica has born in 1968. However it is impossible to state for certain that Jessica's birthday wasn't changed for some reasons.

Other useful dates (they are stated in the game but not in red):

Kinzo met Beatrice after the war (1945+)
Captain kawabata started shipping goods to the kuwadorian around the year 1948
The Ronkkejima Mansion's construction ended in the year 1952
The Ushiromiya's family moved from Odawara to Rokkenjima in the year 1956
A young Beatrice died in 1967, around the same year Kawabata was told it wasn't any longer necessary for him to go to the kuwadorian.
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Old 2009-06-10, 17:44   Link #1165
Renall
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
About Kinzo showing up as corpse. I wonder in what kind of state it was. It certainly didn't pass enough time for him to be a clean skeleton. However it is also almost certain he didn't die just by a few days else there wouldn't be any need to burn the corpse. So I wonder how did they keep his corpse around and preventing the stench from spreading in the house. Did they mummified him? Did they put him in the refrigeratort?
Remember that smell in his study that the game puts down to absinthe or whatever? Suppose it's embalming fluid?
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Old 2009-06-10, 19:08   Link #1166
Jan-Poo
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that would explain a few things and yet it's crazy...

Ah I forgot to mention a thing in my previous post.
Genji in Ep1 states that Beatrice died before the construction of the Rokkenjima's house, so it must have happened in 1952 or before. However young Beatrice in ep2 says she hasn't met Kinzo in 30 years, so, supposing 30 is an approximation it must be exactly the year 1952.
Yeah this is quite a mindfuck considering young Beatrice isn't the same person as that Beatrice and there was another Beatrice before her, but I guess she is playing the part of the first Beatrice since the Beatrice that died in 1967 wasn't even mentioned at that time...

Anyway It looks like Kawabata didn't notice the death of the first Beatrice (if that actually happened), or maybe the first Beatrice has never been in Rokkenjima, and since the beginning he was shipping goods to the Beatrice that died in 1967. However in the year 1948 that Beatrice should have been just a newborn child....
Nah I guess it's more probable to think the first Beatrice was there and the second Beatrice was her daughter. Maybe the first Beatrice died soon after giving birth to the second.
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Old 2009-06-10, 19:14   Link #1167
Marion
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Beatrice of 1967 doesn't have to equal Beatrice of 1952. There was a theory before that 1967 Beatrice is actually the daughter of the original Beatrice, since EP 3 Beato mentioned that she killed herself and then was then trapped within a new wall of flesh made to look like herself (Beatrice 1967).

But if the theory that Jessica is actually Beatrice's daughter is true, then does that mean Kinzo is her dad O_o And if that's so then...Jessica is his 5th child. Aahhhh my brain ;O;!!! It hurrrttss
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Old 2009-06-10, 19:20   Link #1168
Jan-Poo
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It would also mean that Kinzo became dad for the fifth time when he was around 60-70 years old.
That's probably what his alchemic studies were for. He predated Viagra's invention by 30 years
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Old 2009-06-10, 20:06   Link #1169
momobunny
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I'm still a little confused about what Beato said to Battler at the end...

Spoiler for red text:


So I was thinking...

Spoiler for possibilities?:
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Old 2009-06-10, 20:35   Link #1170
k//eternal
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marion View Post
But if the theory that Jessica is actually Beatrice's daughter is true, then does that mean Kinzo is her dad O_o And if that's so then...Jessica is his 5th child. Aahhhh my brain ;O;!!! It hurrrttss
Hilariously, this wouldn't change her ranking in the seating order.
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Old 2009-06-10, 20:36   Link #1171
Marion
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maho Momo View Post
I'm still a little confused about what Beato said to Battler at the end...

Spoiler for red text:


So I was thinking...

Spoiler for possibilities?:
Spoiler for Reply, EP 4 Ending:
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Old 2009-06-10, 20:36   Link #1172
Christen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marion
Spoiler for possibilities?:
Lambdadelta would like to have a word with you

It's possible, although I'm really wondering about the existence of traps now ever since that ura-tea party.

Last edited by Christen; 2009-06-10 at 20:48.
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Old 2009-06-10, 20:38   Link #1173
k//eternal
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I'm trying to figure out how much of EP3's red text is universal, because if it applies across the board, then the statement that only humans are involved on the game board seems to kill most possibilities.

Although maybe she meant "as opposed to other animals", in which case the landslide theory is still a possibility.
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Old 2009-06-10, 20:53   Link #1174
Jan-Poo
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Beatrice=Volcano imho is the best matching theory.

-Volcanic islands are pretty common
-A Volcano could have been "lived" for a thousand of year and be dormant
-The golden land scenario we see in ep2 and ep3 are metaphoric representation of a land scourged by an eruption. When at night a land is filled with lava it could appear as a golden land. The persons that enter the golden land are not "eaten" but consumed by lava.
-An imminent eruption could be the cause for the lack of seagulls (animals are sensitive to imminent disasters)
-The torii could have felt down because of a little earthquake that announced the real disaster

Eva-Beatrice statement is probably not to be taken literally. Imho is the most stupid thing she could say in red. How many times Beatrice stated that she's not human? How many times she stated that Shannon and Kanon are not human? And what about Ronove being a demon? What about the goat men? That's a pretty unconvenient red truth for a witch.
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Old 2009-06-10, 21:05   Link #1175
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One thing I'm wondering as I play EP4... Does Kinzo know that Ange exists? No one seems to talk about her at all, even when all the other grandchildren are mentioned. Like when Kinzo asks if the grandchildren are worth 10b. I can't help but feel this is somehow significant.

Also your Beato=Volcano theory is very interesting and clever. You could be right.
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Old 2009-06-10, 21:06   Link #1176
Marion
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Beatrice=Volcano imho is the best matching theory.

-Volcanic islands are pretty common
-A Volcano could have been "lived" for a thousand of year and be dormant
-The golden land scenario we see in ep2 and ep3 are metaphoric representation of a land scourged by an eruption. When at night a land is filled with lava it could appear as a golden land. The persons that enter the golden land are not "eaten" but consumed by lava.
-An imminent eruption could be the cause for the lack of seagulls (animals are sensitive to imminent disasters)
-The torii could have felt down because of a little earthquake that announced the real disaster

Eva-Beatrice statement is probably not to be taken literally. Imho is the most stupid thing she could say in red. How many times Beatrice stated that she's not human? How many times she stated that Shannon and Kanon are not human? And what about Ronove being a demon? What about the goat men? That's a pretty unconvenient red truth for a witch.
lol Beatrice = Volcano theory |D It's really an amusing thought when you think about it.

Kinzo: I WANT TO SEE BEATRICE SMILING AT ME AGAIN!
Genji:...You mean the volcano?
Kinzo: DO YOU QUESTION MEEE!?
Genji: No Master -pours another drink for Kinzo-

|DDDD
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Old 2009-06-10, 21:07   Link #1177
Marion
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Originally Posted by Bern-chan View Post
One thing I'm wondering as I play EP4... Does Kinzo know that Ange exists? No one seems to talk about her at all, even when all the other grandchildren are mentioned. Like when Kinzo asks if the grandchildren are worth 10b. I can't help but feel this is somehow significant.

Also your Beato=Volcano theory is very interesting and clever. You could be right.
I'm sure he knows Ange exists, but if anything he's referring to the children on the island and not off. Ange is not present for the ceremony nor is she on Rokkenjima, so he probably cares less about her at that time.
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Old 2009-06-10, 21:40   Link #1178
Christen
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I have to question the volcano theory though. The police would have known if there was a major disaster after arriving at the scene, unless Ryukishi intentionally cut out those parts.

Ange's investigations didn't inform us of a volcanic disaster, and assuming we were put into her perspective, such information couldn't have been irrelevant if it existed.

Unless a volcanic eruption is not constant, it might fit (Ange investigated the events of EP3, and Battler died alone in the island in EP4).
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Old 2009-06-10, 21:40   Link #1179
Jan-Poo
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Originally Posted by Bern-chan View Post
One thing I'm wondering as I play EP4... Does Kinzo know that Ange exists? No one seems to talk about her at all, even when all the other grandchildren are mentioned. Like when Kinzo asks if the grandchildren are worth 10b. I can't help but feel this is somehow significant.
I guess you are thinking about the various scenes and talks that apparently show zero consideration for the poor Ange



As far as I remember only Kyrie (at least her own mother does!) and Rosa seem to remember her existence, during the family conference. There's also the scene in ep1 (that I think was repeated in ep2) in the airport when Eva and Kyrie talk about Ange being sick.

Quote:
I have to question the volcano theory though. The police would have known if there was a major disaster after arriving at the scene, unless Ryukishi intentionally cut out those parts.

Ange's investigations didn't inform us of a volcanic disaster, and assuming we were put into her perspective, such information couldn't have been irrelevant if it existed.
This is actually an interesting point. We haven't been told anything about what were the Police conclusions on the case. And this is very strange considering that normally Eva wouldn't escape a death sentence. She was the only person left on the island and noone else could go there or leave.
Actually the whole Rokkenjima case is often referred to as an incident.
Another notable thing is that Ange doesn't go the the Mansion. Why? Even if 12 years have passed the Mansion should be still there.

My guess is that that side of the island was completely covered by lava. The police couldn't find anything. The Mansion, The chapel, the guesthouse... they do not exist anymore. Eva was the only sruvivor because she reached the land of gold i.e. the kuwadorian, who happens to be on the other side of the island, and therefore was unaffected by the catastrophe. Really the only way to survive is solving the riddle.
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Last edited by Jan-Poo; 2009-06-10 at 21:52.
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Old 2009-06-10, 21:50   Link #1180
Squirrellord
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Hmm... I don't like the Volcano theory very much. I'm not saying it can't be true (Devil's Proof), but... well, it seems like just a slap in the face. I mean, are we to believe that it just so happens that when everything hits the fan, to top it all off, God decides to piss in the Ushiromiya Family's eye as well, and has a volcano erupt after they're all murdered?
I said it before in a half joke theory, but I still firmly hold onto the idea that the mansion pulls a Jack Torrence and the boiler goes boom.

Quotes:
Kumasawa: "......I wonder if there's something wrong with the boiler room again..."
Narration: The mansion's boiler was old, and in poor condition. `Both of them had witnessed problems with the boiler on several occasions....

If the boiler exploded, it would have obliterated the mansion, but left Kuwadorian untouched. It would have destroyed all evidence of foul play, magic circles, and mutilation. This would explain why, in the credit roll of episode 1, the only body part found *that could be identified* was Maria's lower jaw.

Oh, and re-reading that credit roll, there's one other problem with the volcano theory... the seagulls return the next day, right after the storm is over. If a volcano assaulted the island, they'd probably steer clear of it
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