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Old 2009-06-11, 21:53   Link #1261
Jan-Poo
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About Bern being evil... I think some people started from the wrong assumption. Bern never stated she's an heroin bent on world's salvation. Quite the contrary.
Bern doesn't have any problem stating that she is a cruel witch, and she's not joking when she says so. She might feel sympathy for Battler but in the end she is a witch, she is looking at human beings as mere pawns and source of entertainment to beat boredom the worst poison for a witch like her.

Evil? Good? She's neither, she's beyond that. There isn't really any twist in Bern's personality, she's always been like that from the beginning.
Spoiler for secret tea party:


As for the ending, I think solving the riddle is the key for everyone's salvation, but that has to be done by Battler.
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Old 2009-06-11, 22:01   Link #1262
momobunny
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
About Bern being evil... I think some people started from the wrong assumption. Bern never stated she's an heroin bent on world's salvation. Quite the contrary.
Bern doesn't have any problem stating that she is a cruel witch, and she's not joking when she says so. She might feel sympathy for Battler but in the end she is a witch, she is looking at human beings as mere pawns and source of entertainment to beat boredom the worst poison for a witch like her.

Evil? Good? She's neither, she's beyond that. There isn't really any twist in Bern's personality, she's always been like that from the beginning.
Spoiler for secret tea party:


As for the ending, I think solving the riddle is the key for everyone's salvation, but that has to be done by Battler.
She just has her own agenda, whether her interests fall on the side of good or evil don't really matter. Or they do... meh either way, I just meant that she does indeed have her own reasons for doing things, whether they are nice or not. ^^;
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Old 2009-06-11, 22:04   Link #1263
k//eternal
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Nobody playing chess has a real emotional attachment to the chess pieces, but they do tend to care about winning.

That's all it is.
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Old 2009-06-11, 22:04   Link #1264
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Bernkastel admitted herself that she is a cruel witch. She is like aligned somewhere in True Neutral.
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Old 2009-06-12, 01:35   Link #1265
Nadeor
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Bernkastel has officially dropped to a status near Rosa in my heart after EP4 Inner Tea Party

But should've figured...ah wth

Spoiler for Final Comments:
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Old 2009-06-12, 03:32   Link #1266
Saerianne
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Bernkastel said herself that she was a cruel witch, crueler then beato. She didn't even act that mean in the ???? in my opinion. She's always been a weird one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by k//eternal View Post
Yeah, I figure it'll be something like that too, or that the solution will have unfortunate implications for his family's happiness that aren't necessarily "they all die" (such as Kyrie or Rudolf being a murderer, etc).

In a sense, the setup allows for him to choose a reality, and I think in the end he'll find one where everyone can get a happy ending.
This is what I think (or maybe hope) will happen. I just want there to be a happy ending. Only thing is that I feel sorry for all the other people who weren't killed and were effected by the games (eg, Ange).
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Old 2009-06-12, 06:56   Link #1267
MeoTwister5
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The biggest problem I think is creating a tension and mystery filled ending that no one dies. Unlike Higurashi that had an active player who has tremendous pre-emptive knowledge of the events about to unfold, so far none of the active pieces has shown to possess any knowledge of previous events.

The thing is, meta Battler being the central character, he pretty much only reacts to the events and has no say in the way things go. The game occurs because someone dies, and Battler has no control of the events that transpire. In short, unless we maybe get a deus ex machina where meta Battler literally enters from the meta world to influence the events and help everyone survive, he is just an observer to the things at hand. Any and all attempts to survive fall squarely flat on the pieces of the game, and unless they do intrinsically know that something's wrong they're just people waiting to die every game. Meta Battler can't stop, influence or control so far what happens in every game.

The premise of their game is that he should be able to find a realistic solution to the murders, NOT to find a way for everyone to survive. As it stands, the rules of the internal reality of the game is that people die, and from a metaphysical perspective the game cannot exist if the required game events do not occur. If no one dies, meta Battler cannot prove a human causation to the deaths.
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Old 2009-06-12, 07:00   Link #1268
Klashikari
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nadeor View Post
Bernkastel has officially dropped to a status near Rosa in my heart after EP4 Inner Tea Party
As we explained before, this event doesn't mean Bernkastel is evil or mean. She has her own objective and challenged Beatrice. No more no less. Loathing at the enemy is nothing that different of Battler going berserk over Beatrice.

As far as it goes, Bernkastel has her own agenda, and having a creepy smile isn't even proof of "good" or "evil". To the contrary, she is the less twisted if you think in a contest sense. And nothing guarantee that she didn't do that just to tag along with Lambda, who is extremely frantic in such kind of stuff.

Thinking back how Bern suffered back in higurashi, you can expect her not to be totally insensitive to Beato's eternal torture.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MeoTwister5 View Post
As it stands, the rules of the internal reality of the game is that people die, and from a metaphysical perspective the game cannot exist if the required game events do not occur. If no one dies, meta Battler cannot prove a human causation to the deaths.
Not true: it doesn't prevent a possibility of a world that "no one dies" to to exceptional roll dice.
As in, if you compare Battler with Rika's ordeal, they are in the same boat, though indeed, Battler himself is like watching a show on TV.

However, due to his own nature of being an observer, he can ALSO decide which ones he "watch" or not. Thefore, nothing would prevent him to actually gain a world where the culprit is stopped in his mad plan.
Of course, game wise, the witch side would never let it happen until Battler vainquish it completely.

But there is certainly a possibility for a "good end" without sounding like a Deus Ex Machina. The whole "game" itself shouldn't exist if you take the strict sense of Anti Fantasy. Therefore, you can admit a certain element.
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Old 2009-06-12, 07:01   Link #1269
Kitsu
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who has tremendous pre-emptive knowledge of the events about to unfold, so far none of the active pieces has shown to possess any knowledge of previous events.
I beg to differ!
Okay it's only said in magic pov but Kanon and Shannon do remember everything clearly xD *joking*
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Old 2009-06-12, 07:09   Link #1270
Jan-Poo
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Quote:
none of the active pieces has shown to possess any knowledge of previous events.
That was true until Ep4. But now we have Shannon and Kanon who are shown remembering the past games. Of course this might be false, however it is unavoidable that remembering a "past game" can only be shown from the antimystery perspective.

Anyway If we deny any kind of supernatural... then I wonder... maybe we can use a quantum physic perspective. There are different alternate realities coexisting at this moment. In most of them everyone dies, however there might be one where Battler solves any mystery and everyone survives. If Battler is the observer then he can observe that particular reality and make the wave function collapse in it.

Yes this is pseudo scientific mumbo jumbo, but I don't think you can find something better ^^;
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Old 2009-06-12, 07:16   Link #1271
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
As we explained before, this event doesn't mean Bernkastel is evil or mean. She has her own objective and challenged Beatrice. No more no less. Loathing at the enemy is nothing that different of Battler going berserk over Beatrice.

As far as it goes, Bernkastel has her own agenda, and having a creepy smile isn't even proof of "good" or "evil". To the contrary, she is the less twisted if you think in a contest sense. And nothing guarantee that she didn't do that just to tag along with Lambda, who is extremely frantic in such kind of stuff.

Thinking back how Bern suffered back in higurashi, you can expect her not to be totally insensitive to Beato's eternal torture.


No true: it doesn't prevent a possibility of a world that "no one dies" to to exceptional roll dice.
As in, if you compare Battler with Rika's ordeal, they are in the same boat, though indeed, Battler himself is like watching a show on TV.

However, due to his own nature of being an observer, he can ALSO decide which ones he "watch" or not. Thefore, nothing would prevent him to actually gain a world where the culprit is stopped in his mad plan.
Of course, game wise, the witch side would never let it happen until Battler vainquish it completely.

But there is certainly a possibility for a "good end" without sounding like a Deus Ex Machina. The whole "game" itself shouldn't exist if you take the strict sense of Anti Fantasy. Therefore, you can admit a certain element.
In that case, Battler will have to be forced to win should the dice give him an ideal world where no one dies, or else they'll redo the game and he may never again get this ideal game world. However, it again depends if Battler can prove a human murderer, or should I say attempted murderer. If he gets a survivor's world, he'll instead have to prove a human attempted to kill them and not a witch.

This in turn gives a logical problematic: if a world does exist where the murderer fails, doesn't the mere existence of this world contradict the powers of a witch? If by strict definition a witch in that situation could have killed anyone anytime with no problem, a failure to kill them means a failure of the witch's definition of power and in turn is a contradiction to her existence. If a world exists where the witch cannot supposedly kill them, then the witch must not be a witch, and thus does not exist.

This is an existential problem. The mere presentation of this world as a probable existence contradicts witches themselves, and by this mere existence Battler has won before the game has even started. A witch should be able to someone in every world. If by her "powers" she is unable to kill even one to negate Battler's wish where everyone survives, then the witch has no real power at all.

From a Magical perspective of real witches, this world should no exist and Battler will never encounter this whatever the dice rolls, so his endeavor is meaningless. However from a Realist point of view, Beato is forced to hide or delay the appearance of this world in order to force Battler to submit, because once Battler finds this world it's mere existence is his victory.
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Old 2009-06-12, 07:38   Link #1272
Alaya
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I think I read an interview with Ryuukishi (translated into my native language) that because Umineko has a differnet theme and feeling than Higurashi, it does not neccessary to have a happy ending where everyone survives.

So I think we should not have a very high hope that everyone will be alive after Battler finally beat Beatrice. It might result in a lone survivor or no survivors incidents but still can be prove by human theory. But for me I don't expect a very good ending for Umineko.
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Last edited by Alaya; 2009-06-12 at 14:22.
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Old 2009-06-12, 07:46   Link #1273
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Spoiler for Kuwadorian:
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Old 2009-06-12, 07:52   Link #1274
Von Himmel
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Spoiler:


Guess I should go for Anti-mystery for now, but still trying to debate how the murder happen as an anti-fantasy for fun. Seriously, there's going to be some powerful drug that can make all the adults see and perceive the same 'magic event' happening at the same time. I don't think I would be surprised if Ryukishi brings us some illogical weapon or machine at the answer arc

Spoiler:


Quote:
The premise of their game is that he should be able to find a realistic solution to the murders, NOT to find a way for everyone to survive. As it stands, the rules of the internal reality of the game is that people die, and from a metaphysical perspective the game cannot exist if the required game events do not occur. If no one dies, meta Battler cannot prove a human causation to the deaths.
Another randomness from me again, but oh well #_#;
Well. . if Ryukishi decided to force it, if there's something that happened beyond the normal
plot, the killing might not happened at all. If all the murders here was planned beforehand, it is possible to prevent it by conducting a plot that is unaccounted for. Of course, because of the event was planned during the game, it takes 'miracle' to do something like this IMO
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Old 2009-06-12, 08:14   Link #1275
MagiToxin
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Spoiler for Bern:


As for the end game and the 'final' world as a result, I think the message bottle at the end of every OP is a clue. Though wikipedia states that the object of the game is to 'reach a conclusion where everyone survives', i find that extremely doubtful. However, I still think Battler is in some kind of purgatory, and the only thing that will 'truly' change should Battler win is the contents of the message bottle would be different, exposing the truth behind the murders of Rokkenjima and thus Ange's family return to her, not 'literally' but she'll be able to move on with her life.
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Old 2009-06-12, 08:33   Link #1276
Christen
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I still like Bern. I am biased towards slightly insane characters.
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Old 2009-06-12, 08:47   Link #1277
Klashikari
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MeoTwister5 View Post
This in turn gives a logical problematic: if a world does exist where the murderer fails, doesn't the mere existence of this world contradict the powers of a witch? If by strict definition a witch in that situation could have killed anyone anytime with no problem, a failure to kill them means a failure of the witch's definition of power and in turn is a contradiction to her existence. If a world exists where the witch cannot supposedly kill them, then the witch must not be a witch, and thus does not exist.
They aren't mutually exclusive. You are implying that witches and magic don't exist as soon as the murders are proved to be a human's doing. That is an actual contradiction considering the existence of the meta world.

The fact the culprit isn't a witch doesn't impair in the slightest the witch's side. However, it would just be Beato's defeat, since her goal is to prove the existence of the witches to battler. In fact, like mentioned way before, both Battler and Beato's winning conditions ARE NOT mutually exclusive.

Quote:
This is an existential problem. The mere presentation of this world as a probable existence contradicts witches themselves, and by this mere existence Battler has won before the game has even started. A witch should be able to someone in every world. If by her "powers" she is unable to kill even one to negate Battler's wish where everyone survives, then the witch has no real power at all.
You seem to imply that Battler just has to lazily wait for the world to appear so he can smash Beato. However, as you could see with the end of episode4, his goal was to deny her completely for the timeframe of 4th and 5th october 1986. By no means it will touch her, because it IS a contradiction to begin with: why claiming "witches and magic" don't exist, despite their existence and even Meta-battler's are totally deviant from reality now?
Quote:
From a Magical perspective of real witches, this world should no exist and Battler will never encounter this whatever the dice rolls, so his endeavor is meaningless. However from a Realist point of view, Beato is forced to hide or delay the appearance of this world in order to force Battler to submit, because once Battler finds this world it's mere existence is his victory.
From a TRUE magical perspective, it is unimaginable that worlds up to now couldn't make Battler surrender.
Heck, if from this point of view, if witches really do exist at that point, they could simply appear in front of Battler and pulls an instant checkmate.


You are merging too much the concept of the meta world with the actual world.
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Old 2009-06-12, 08:55   Link #1278
Jan-Poo
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@Meotwister

You have brought up some valid points. However maybe this conundrum can be solved with a different approach.
For example, according to Beatrice, Battler's sin is one of the cause of the current situation. So it is not necessary for a murder to occur. Battler could solve everything by remembering his sin and make up for it before anything happens.
More in detail. The witch side will never present to Battler a game where nothing happens. But Beatrice has complete control over the game board. Should Meta Battler defeat the witch, unveiling any mystery and denying any fantasy, Beatrice would lose her power and her control over the game board. At that point I think Bernkastel would take over bringing Battler to the best possible Kakera, and that could be anything... even a kakera where Battler didn't commit a sin in the first place (best possible fate), or maybe a kakera where some people die, but Battler still manages to save himself and a few other and the culprit is busted. There's plenty of possibilities.
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Old 2009-06-12, 09:08   Link #1279
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Spoiler for anti-fantasy explanation:


Side comment: Episodes 1-3 have the theme of everybody infighting. Episode 4 has everyone banding together against an external enemy.
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Old 2009-06-12, 11:44   Link #1280
tcaz2
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Regarding the discussion from last page, I always just assumed that, regardless of whether there is magic or not, similar to Higurashi, this scenario ALWAYS = bad end.

While there may be worlds where nothing bad happens,

Spoiler for Higurashi Kai/Rei:


this specific set of things that happen (since everything before the 'cut off date' of October 4th seems to always happen) always leads to everyone dying.
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