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Old 2009-06-13, 21:41   Link #1341
Hareoic
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hodil View Post
Battler's body was never found in all the games right?
Actually, he wasn't reported missing in the third game. Said he was shot in the head.
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Old 2009-06-13, 21:48   Link #1342
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Originally Posted by Hareoic View Post
Actually, he wasn't reported missing in the third game. Said he was shot in the head.
Which is why Episode 3 still feels as the one where things "didn't go as planned". The original "mastermind" probably didn't expect for Eva to somehow change the script. While in the other episodes by comparing Battler's situation at the end you get the feeling that pretty much everything followed the script of the perpetrator.
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Old 2009-06-13, 21:52   Link #1343
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How do you think the bodies go missing? I mean disregarding the volcano theory.

everyone dies and no one else is left on the island, unless dead bodies can walk how can that be explained?

I can only think of someone going to the island before the police arrives. But in that case that must be an organization of some sort... and then again why don't they remove every corpse, or why they only remove a few?

Well I guess it can be speculated that it's not true that everyone dies, but well ep3 pretty much confirms that Eva is the only survivor. and in the EP4 the red truths leave no doubt. Battler is the only survivor and then he gets killed. "I will kill you" in red is not a mere possibility it's a fact.
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Old 2009-06-13, 22:13   Link #1344
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According to the tati, all survivors to the end except Eva of ep 3 - the missing ones - were mutilated. I think their body parts were spread all over the island. The police might find some parts, but they couldn't identify them (except Maria's jaw). I wonder whether the ADN test is available in 1986
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Old 2009-06-13, 22:16   Link #1345
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Wait, technically, on in Ep3 has Eva-Beatrice ruled out animals.

One crazy idea could be some animal have killed Battler.

But then that's just ridiculous?
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Old 2009-06-13, 22:28   Link #1346
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No but that animal must be something Beatrice identify with. And in that case I wonder... if Beatrice is an animal how could she have nothing to do with the Ep3 game?
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Old 2009-06-13, 22:40   Link #1347
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There need not be a "fake Kinzo." None of the red text suggests a human being appeared to people and was acknowledged as Kinzo. They simply said the people present "acknowledged his existence." Well that's pretty easy. I can acknowledge the existence of anyone I happen to know. They don't have to be alive; "He existed. I knew him." There, I just did it. I don't know how the Japanese does tenses but from what I can see I don't see why they can't mean that in past tense.

There's also the whole "can't mistake Kinzo by sight" thing, which doesn't rule out mistaking him by voice. So no one needs to be "posing as Kinzo" if they can mimic his voice or use a recording or something.

My big problem right now is that Battler is just doing a terrible job of countering anything. He completely ignores things like motive in favor of a direct and pat explanation that may not make any sense. Even if he thinks he can win by the mere possibility of a tiny food bomb existing, it's patently absurd to claim the killings are essentially motiveless. Doing things capriciously is how a witch kills; a human has a motive and a methodology, and Battler has completely ignored that!

Random fun: Maybe Lord Pendragon is Battler. Although I think Beatrice called him a phoenix, not a dragon. Then again, she said the same thing of Kinzo, and he turned into one... metaphorically anyway.

On the chess metaphor:

White King: Battler
White Queen: Ange?
Black King: Maria (or MARIA?)
Black Queen: Beatrice

Each side has 16 pieces... which is no more than 17.

Kinzo and Battler wear white. Kinzo's dead. Kinzo is the old white king? Although if white is anti-fantasy, that doesn't seem to make much sense, unless Kinzo has been grossly mischaracterized by these first four episodes.

Plus there'd still be a person missing.

Last edited by Renall; 2009-06-13 at 22:52.
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Old 2009-06-13, 22:56   Link #1348
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
No but that animal must be something Beatrice identify with. And in that case I wonder... if Beatrice is an animal how could she have nothing to do with the Ep3 game?
Maybe the animal is in a cage, and it is let loose by the criminal at some point.
And in ep 3 he was killed before doing that.
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Old 2009-06-13, 22:59   Link #1349
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Uhm well, you did find a loophole, that is if Eva-Beatrice red truth only applies to the third game.

Anyway right now the possibility that Beatrice is an animal or any other animate being can't be completely ruled out
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Old 2009-06-13, 23:08   Link #1350
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I doubt it. Whatever it is can kill the "missing" survivors seemingly regardless of where they are. I doubt an animal is smart enough to open doors, so unless people intentionally go outside, it seems very unlikely. A natural disaster is more plausible.
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Old 2009-06-13, 23:09   Link #1351
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@Renall
In a murder mystery where we don't know who the killer is, or how the murder was acted out, motive is the LAST thing that's important. It can give a clue, if you know it, but it's not 100% necessary to solving the mystery, which usually comes afterwords, once the detective has singled out the one person who did it. Otherwise, the motive never comes around, and the motive is revealed some way else.

For example, in Agatha Christie's "Hickory Dickory Death", the murder victim has was murdered in an obvious way (poison), and they figured out how fast (coffee). This one, motive was a big reason for the mystery, since it was the only thing that the police couldn't find. That's a motive murder case

But then, in John Dickson Carr's "He Who Whispers", the murder victim is killed while alone, with multiple eye witnesses testifying that nobody came or went during the time the murder was committed. He was killed with a stab wound to his back, from his sword-cane, with only his prints on it, but the angle couldn't have been suicide, nor any sort of trickery. So here, it was more important to figure out how, then who, then why. This is an "impossible" mystery.

Umineko's more like the last one... we don't know *how* they were killed despite how obvious it was (faces ripped off, guts disemboweled), or how they were locked up like that.
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Old 2009-06-13, 23:22   Link #1352
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This may be way off the mark a little, but what if there's something hidden in the original red truth japanese characters? ...Or did someone already state this somewhere else? It's just a thought.

But anyway, is there a full list of every game's Red Truths and the 4th game's Blue Truths?
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Old 2009-06-13, 23:24   Link #1353
Cinnamon Doll
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Renall View Post

On the chess metaphor:

White King: Battler
White Queen: Ange?
Black King: Maria (or MARIA?)
Black Queen: Beatrice

Each side has 16 pieces... which is no more than 17.

Kinzo and Battler wear white. Kinzo's dead. Kinzo is the old white king? Although if white is anti-fantasy, that doesn't seem to make much sense, unless Kinzo has been grossly mischaracterized by these first four episodes.

Plus there'd still be a person missing.
Uhm.. I dont know if you figure out that chess pieces based on their clothes, Kyrie has a cross in her cloths as a amakuza and battler too have one...

I think if that crosses means as a bishop... maybe??
The bishop almost always is represented with a cross....

The witches have a particular "thing" in their clothes: red roses in their heads.

I'm not sure... but I though there are many symbols in the clothes of the characters.

@Squirellord: some offtopic... what is the name of the serie of your avatar?? ... gosh! i was very little when I watched that serie... *a lot of memories*
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Old 2009-06-13, 23:33   Link #1354
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iskatar View Post
This may be way off the mark a little, but what if there's something hidden in the original red truth japanese characters? ...Or did someone already state this somewhere else? It's just a thought.

But anyway, is there a full list of every game's Red Truths and the 4th game's Blue Truths?
http://umineco.info/?cmd=read&page=%...word=%E8%B5%A4

In Japanese though, so good luck

And my avatar is from Bannertail: The Story of Gray Squirrel
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Old 2009-06-13, 23:44   Link #1355
k//eternal
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
No but that animal must be something Beatrice identify with. And in that case I wonder... if Beatrice is an animal how could she have nothing to do with the Ep3 game?
Beatrice could be identified with wolves, as the witch legend replaced the wolf legend as detailed by the parents in EP3. If you think Battler getting shot in the head in EP3 is an anomaly and that the "humans only" text applies only to EP3 ("this game board" is what she said, and whenever they talk about setting up the next EP's game they say "the next game board" IIRC), you could easily call Beato's true form a wolf pack.

A wolf pack could also result in the heavily destroyed bodies we see in the Executes of people who go "missing" if you believe that damage level is accurate.

If you want to roll with this "wolf pack" theory and continue taking the easy path at every turn, then in EP3 Eva shoots Battler, then hides out in Kuwadorian where the gold was found. The main mansion is for some reason invaded by the wolf pack and everyone's bodies are devoured, destroying the evidence. The landslides would have been gradual as Ange hypothesized.

In the remaining EPs, the cleanup job (i.e., killing the survivors) is always done by the wolves, hence the messy Executes.

It's not a horrid explanation, although it seems too easy.
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Old 2009-06-13, 23:47   Link #1356
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Wolves would explain the goat's feasting
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Old 2009-06-13, 23:48   Link #1357
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iskatar View Post
But anyway, is there a full list of every game's Red Truths and the 4th game's Blue Truths?

http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...&postcount=476

I never went through and got the blue truth, and I don't recall anyone who has.
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Old 2009-06-13, 23:54   Link #1358
Renall
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Originally Posted by Squirrellord View Post
@Renall
In a murder mystery where we don't know who the killer is, or how the murder was acted out, motive is the LAST thing that's important. It can give a clue, if you know it, but it's not 100% necessary to solving the mystery, which usually comes afterwords, once the detective has singled out the one person who did it. Otherwise, the motive never comes around, and the motive is revealed some way else.
I don't mean a motive for any particular killer. I mean motives for the people we have identified. For instance, we can say "Eva is very concerned about money and becoming the head, so she was willing to kill for it."

This is still speculation, and it may or may not be true, but it's a more plausible explanation than "They all shot each other for some reason!" and it might offer hints. Motive can establish targets and methods, and if we can start to see a pattern, we might be able to hypothesize who did what.

You need to think of it less like a detective in a murder mystery and more like a prosecutor. We're trying to advance a plausible theory here that a human did it. To do that, we just need a human to accuse who has motive (a reason to do it), means (some method for doing it), and opportunity (lack of a plausible alibi to rule out their doing it). The reason we want to approach it this way is simple; blue text that makes a more plausible theory is more useful when counterattacked in red than blue text which just tries to explain isolated events.

For instance, Battler's "they all shot each other" blue for ep1 or his "tiny bombs in their food" blue for ep2 is nearly useless and can easily be countered with red text that doesn't bring us much closer to the truth. His ep3 blue "Eva did it" may not be right (and I've attacked it before), but by advancing Eva as a suspect based on her motive, means, and opportunity, he can advance a more specific theory that, if countered in red, can be used to dramatically narrow suspects and methods.

Of course, narratively Battler's ultimate goal is the actual truth, so merely satisfying "a culprit we can reasonably accuse" is insufficient; we need "the culprits."

On the wolf theory: So uh why do the wolves wait until midnight on the 5th/6th to attack, every single time?
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Old 2009-06-14, 00:09   Link #1359
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I'm sure there'll be a thread for each color once they show up in the Anime.
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Old 2009-06-14, 00:09   Link #1360
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I see your point. The Blue Truth is more for winning the game by undeniable possibilities, but without actually finding out the truth. Which is probably what Battler meant, when Beato gave him the win and he said he wouldn't accept it until he found out who she really was.

And, I know this is old news, but Umineko is based off "And Then There Were None" which...
Spoiler for Novel Ending:


Oh, and about the wolves... Japanese wolves have been extinct for an excessively long time, and it's unlikely that any would be on the island
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