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Old 2009-06-18, 07:22   Link #1521
Jan-Poo
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Quote:
On another topic, I'm sure this has been suggested before, but the claim for the first twilight of the second episode that "Starting when Maria's key was received, and until the instant Rosa unsealed it the next day, it passed through no one's hands." has the obvious answer that any time Rosa opened the envelope after midnight would fit the red text, not just the next morning. My only problem with this interpretation is that I can't any longer see why Rosa would have thought of the envelope to lock up the chapel afterwards. Up until episode 4, I'd been assuming that the siblings got a message to come to the chapel, and finding it locked was what made Rosa think of the envelope, and how she obtained the key. Anyone have an explanation for this?
Sillyhat has found a loophole. It is never been stated when Maria received the key. Sillyhat noticed that while Battler specifically asked to repeat in red that Maria recevied the key on midday of october4, Beatrice didn't repeat that part.

In other words Maria receiving a letter that very moment could be a big lie, or she had received a fake. Then soon after the first twilight the culprit gave Maria the true envelope with the true key. After that no one touched it until Rosa in the morning.
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Old 2009-06-18, 08:07   Link #1522
MeoTwister5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Sillyhat has found a loophole. It is never been stated when Maria received the key. Sillyhat noticed that while Battler specifically asked to repeat in red that Maria recevied the key on midday of october4, Beatrice didn't repeat that part.

In other words Maria receiving a letter that very moment could be a big lie, or she had received a fake. Then soon after the first twilight the culprit gave Maria the true envelope with the true key. After that no one touched it until Rosa in the morning.
Actually I'm pretty sure it was stated in red that the letter given to Maria is the same letter all throughout, meaning the letter was not substituted. My initial observance was similar to Sillyhat, however in my case I assumed that the letter was not swapped, rather the contents were altered. Consider the fact that since only Maria had that letter in her bag we never really learn from her or anyone if they ever felt any change in the contents of the letter. A key is different from paper and would have made even a slightly noticable change. It is also not impossible to assume that the key was inserted into the letter in the middle of the night as a possibility.

Back on the topic of episode 4... does anyone have an inkling of just what the hell Ange saw in the captain's house?
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Old 2009-06-18, 08:18   Link #1523
Christen
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It was speculated to be a Sakutaro plushie. Beato wasn't able to repeat in red that it was the only one that existed.
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Old 2009-06-18, 08:19   Link #1524
cheesie
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
There is another connection. Ange is Battler's sister.
-Ange is my younger sister.
So Battler should be Rudolf's son or Kyrie's son... unless you want to mindfuck this even more and question even Ange's parents.
That's initially what I thought at first too. However, back in Episode 3, Kyrie faces off against Leviathan, and tells her how her envy couldn't possibly rival what she had felt during those twelve years, when Asumu married Rudolf and conceived a baby, while Kyrie suffered a miscarriage. If there's another chance for meta-Battler to be born from either of these two women, then this should be the period.

To summarize once more, Meta-Battler is unable to claim he was born from Asumu, but has established his name as Kinzo's grandson. He is also able to successfully claim that he is Ange's brother.

Perhaps he is truly Rudolf's son, there shouldn't be any reason to doubt it (but I'm also being cautious about it too). However, I'm not really sure if Kyrie had given birth to him, unless she made the whole thing up (which I wouldn't put past Umineko, but as for now, it doesn't seem likely.) I believe that to go even further beyond this is to link it to the crime Beato speaks of, which there's admittedly not much to go on with at the moment. Hmm...

Another theory is...

(This is where I'll take you up on that offer. )

Ange : Come back quickly, Onii-chan!! Don't leave me all alone!!! It's me, Ange...!! No one came back, not Mom, not Dad, not you, Onii-chan!! I'm lonely!! I beg you, come back quickly! That's right, I'm Ange!! The Ange of the world where no one comes back...!! My entire family didn't come back from Rokkenjima on that day...!! The witch before your eyes stole my whole family, even you, Onii-chan...! Only you can finish her, Onii-chan!! Finish her, Onii-chan...!! And take our family back!! Then, ......come back to me......!!!

Now, I need someone fluent in Japanese to confirm this, but perhaps the reason why it's possible for Battler to claim that he is indeed her brother because 'brother' also means 'Onii-Chan' and that 'Onii-Chan' doesn't necessarily have to refer to a person who is blood-related. (Oh boy...) This is quite different from being made to say 'I was born from Ushiromiya Asumu' as it's a direct confirmation that he is of the same blood. It is also indeed a mind-screwing theory, not like we needed to add it onto the many piles already, but there's always that possibility and if it did happen, then you heard it here first.

And yes, it's possible for his appearance to be changed during that growth spurt, so it shouldn't be anything out of the ordinary. However, the only people who could fully acknowledge Battler's appearance would be his parents, Rudolf and Kyrie. I'm assuming that the time before the crime happened six years ago, and after, there was nothing out of the ordinary with Rudolf's family, seeing how I'm sure there will be quite a fuss if there's suddenly a different looking Battler popping up on their doorstep.

Unless Rudolf, or Kyrie, has something to hide. I believe that Rudolf knows more than he lets on, given by his dialogue, when he tells Battler he's going to die tonight, suggests that he at least has a decent understanding of the twilights. In fact, he may be the only one out of the family, apart from Maria, who knows of this (and to an extent, maybe Kyrie, but I can't remember much about her in Episode 1, and if I'm mistaken, please feel free to correct this.)

This, as well as how the game had never once mentioned how Asumu died, and had given a rough estimate of her time of death, around the same year where Rudolf proposes to Kyrie? It's certainly incensed meta-Battler enough to forsake the family name. This also takes place in the same year that this crime had occurred, and someone had died due to this crime. (I have reasons for believing that the twilights play a huge role in this, but that's another issue.) Could Asumu have died as a result of Battler's crime?

The thing is, and I agree with you on this, is that the main problem lies in Battler's memories. He was assuming that this crime relates to his abandonment of the family name, and yet, we also know that there was something that he had forgotten, and this is why Beato had grieved. So I really wouldn't put much weight on what he says regarding those six years for now, not because he may be lying, but because what he wholeheartedly and confidently believes in during those six years may in fact be limited, and there's something more in the bigger picture that he's not able to see, yet. To reiterate, I believe that Kyrie, Rudolf, and last but not least, Asumu, are heavily involved with this more than what the game lets on, but that's all I have at the moment. (On that note, if I'm not wrong, there is also a small bit where Beato theorized that it had something to do with the family inheritance, but I can't remember the exact quote.)

Edit:
Quote:
Originally Posted by MeoTwister5
Back on the topic of episode 4... does anyone have an inkling of just what the hell Ange saw in the captain's house?
Fabulous Mackerel.

Last edited by cheesie; 2009-06-18 at 10:27.
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Old 2009-06-18, 09:00   Link #1525
Jan-Poo
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Quote:
Actually I'm pretty sure it was stated in red that the letter given to Maria is the same letter all throughout, meaning the letter was not substituted.
the exact sentence is:

Quote:
The letter that I handed over to Maria and the one Rosa opened are the same thing
It doesn't say when the letter was given. You only assume it was given in midday of october 4 because the antimystery scenes say so.
Also in the the case "Beatrice" gave Maria two letters a fake one initially and the real one later, this sentence doesn't give any clear info about which letter she's talking about.

Quote:
Now, I need someone fluent in Japanese to confirm this, but perhaps the reason why it's possible for Battler to claim that he is indeed her brother because 'brother' also means 'Onii-Chan' and that 'Onii-Chan' doesn't necessarily have to refer to a person who is blood-related
That works for "Onii-chan" and "Onee-chan" but not for "otouto" or "imouto". The latter are only used for blood relatives. Well they might be used for family members even when there's no blood relation however such use in the red truth has been denied because else Battler would have no problem stating he's Asumu's son.
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Old 2009-06-18, 09:16   Link #1526
Natsuki Hyuga
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post

That works for "Onii-chan" and "Onee-chan" but not for "otouto" or "imouto".
Not exactly. "Otouto" and "Imouto" mean "Younger Brother" and "Younger sister" respectively and certainly, they can be used even though both of the siblings are not related by blood.

cheesie, get to the point than doing tl;drs! I know what you mean, but are you trying to burn my eyes with tl;drs everytime? :E
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Old 2009-06-18, 09:25   Link #1527
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Natsu, when you present a case, you build it and try to make people see from your point of view. If you want to ask me something, let's head over to VM.
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Old 2009-06-18, 10:11   Link #1528
Jan-Poo
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Originally Posted by Natsuki Hyuga View Post
Not exactly. "Otouto" and "Imouto" mean "Younger Brother" and "Younger sister" respectively and certainly, they can be used even though both of the siblings are not related by blood.
Can they be used for someone who isn't part of your family at all as in the case of "Onee-chan" and "Onii-chan"? If not I don't think I've said something wrong.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo
That works for "Onii-chan" and "Onee-chan" but not for "otouto" or "imouto". The latter are only used for blood relatives. Well they might be used for family members even when there's no blood relation however such use in the red truth has been denied because else Battler would have no problem stating he's Asumu's son.
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Old 2009-06-18, 10:40   Link #1529
Natsuki Hyuga
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Can they be used for someone who isn't part of your family at all as in the case of "Onee-chan" and "Onii-chan"? If not I don't think I've said something wrong.
Sorry read your post a bit wrong ( I was assuming it was the "imouto" and "otouto" ^^; ) But yes, "Onii-chan" and "Onee-chan" can be used by non-related by blood family members or even close relationships. I wouldn't delve deeper, but in this case, if someone is an "older brother" or "older sister" figure for a person, he/she can use the the terms, even though they are not blood-related.

Argh, I read that part wrongly again. But yes, they could, as "imouto", if stretched out in a way, can exactly fit into "younger sister figure" for a person, just like my explanation on "onii-chan"/"onee-chan". But again, that would require a bit of rather... implausible thinking. As well as it's pretty hard to find the examples for "imouto" outside family relationships, unlike "otouto". (Key point is on "Figure" thinking from a person... But I guess that would REALLY take a stretch, so yah.) I still can be wrong though and I sure hope I am, especially seeing this "Figure" theory may need more Japanese word as addition. D:

Even "son" itself can be twisted imho... Because I was under impression that "son" can also mean he is not blood-related, but a "son figure" for Asumu. The problem is here, as cheesie said, Battler cannot say: 'I was born from Ushiromiya Asumu' rather than 'I am Ushiromiya Asumu's son', while Ange only said that Battler is her "Onii-chan" and Battler uses "imouto". Note the difference here, because Battler uses "born" that correalates that he is blood-related to Asumu, but Ange/Battler uses "Onii-chan/"imouto"" that can correalate with brother/sister figure.

Et tu, while I think it's possible to say that he is not Rudolf's son, personally, I can't take anymore mind-screwing from Ryukishi The theory is still plausible in a way though.

... Although I really don't want this to be possible, because this too, can nullify Meta-Battler's Ushiromiya's heritage in a point Though that would need a wider stretch, to be very honest, as I can't possibly say his "Kinzo's grandson" statement can be screwed easily, as much as it also is possible.
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Old 2009-06-18, 11:05   Link #1530
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IMO, considering that Beato won't delve deeper about his identity, I think we can safely assumed that Battler = Kinzo's grandson. Well, if she can, she would try to say it in red about Battler's fake identity more right ? ^^;
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Old 2009-06-18, 11:05   Link #1531
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Originally Posted by Natsuki Hyuga View Post
Sorry read your post a bit wrong ( I was assuming it was the "imouto" and "otouto" ^^; ) But yes, "Onii-chan" and "Onee-chan" can be used by non-related by blood family members or even close relationships. I wouldn't delve deeper, but in this case, if someone is an "older brother" or "older sister" figure for a person, he/she can use the the terms, even though they are not blood-related.

Even "son" itself can be twisted... Because I was under impression that "son" can also mean he is not blood-related, but a "son figure" for Asumu. The problem is here, as cheesie said, Battler cannot say: 'I was born from Ushiromiya Asumu' rather than 'I am Ushiromiya Asumu's son', while Ange only said that Battler is her "Onii-chan". Note the difference here, because Battler uses "born" that correalates that he is blood-related to Asumu, but Ange uses "Onii-chan" that can correalate with brother figure. In which we know how much of brother-complex Ange is

Et tu, while I think it's possible to say that he is not Rudolf's son, personally, I can't take anymore mind-screwing from Ryukishi The theory is still plausible in a way though.

... Although I really don't want this to be possible, because this too, can nullify Meta-Battler's Ushiromiya's heritage in a point Though that would need a wider stretch, to be very honest, as I can't possibly say his "Kinzo's grandson" statement can be screwed easily, as much as it also is possible.
well, I don't think the Kinzo's grandson bomd is that strong either XD

hey, don't diss the incest,

(imagines how many fans will be disappointed if Amakuza was actually Battler in disguise)
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hai, hai. Onii-chan has his work cut out for him.
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Old 2009-06-18, 11:31   Link #1532
Jan-Poo
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Which Battler? Maybe he's Asumu's son! And Rosa is Eva's daughter, and then Nanjo is Maria's father, and Kasumi is the wife of Kumasawa's son, which mean Kumasawa's son is the husband of the sister of the mother of Kinzo's grandson's sister, who happens to be cousin of the aunt of Nanjo's granddaughter!

Now let's just hope this is not going to happen...
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Old 2009-06-18, 11:34   Link #1533
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We're already pretty confused just because of this one problem lol. This is indeed one of the main weapon for Ryukishi to mindfuck us ;( .
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Old 2009-06-18, 11:40   Link #1534
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Spoiler for Questions about George:
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Old 2009-06-18, 12:28   Link #1535
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Sillyhat has found a loophole. It is never been stated when Maria received the key. Sillyhat noticed that while Battler specifically asked to repeat in red that Maria recevied the key on midday of october4, Beatrice didn't repeat that part.

In other words Maria receiving a letter that very moment could be a big lie, or she had received a fake. Then soon after the first twilight the culprit gave Maria the true envelope with the true key. After that no one touched it until Rosa in the morning.
Delivering the letter to Maria after the first twilight would mean sneaking in to the cousins' room and having a discussion with Maria without waking any of them though, and that Maria was actively lying the next day to make the first twilight more difficult to solve as well.

I think I prefer my loophole, that the red text simply doesn't prevent Rosa opening the letter any time after midnight, since that's still "Rosa unsealed the letter the next day". I'm just not sure what motivation there would have been this way to give Maria the letter in the first place or how Rosa should have worked out that the key was in it.

Actually.. for that matter, if Maria got the letter after the first twilight, wouldn't Rosa have been opening it the same day rather than the next day?
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Old 2009-06-18, 12:36   Link #1536
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Spoiler for chapel key, episode 2:
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Old 2009-06-18, 13:06   Link #1537
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Beatrice could have simply switched the fake letter given to Maria without waking her up with the real thing.

The red text does prevent Rosa from opening the envelope before the morning of October 5th. It was stated that Rosa opened it "this morning" and that from the time Maria recieved it until it was opened it did not pass through anyone's hands. That includes Rosa. Of course you could argue the definition of "morning", but that would basically mean Rosa opened the envelope, saw the real thing, then resealed it again and acted all surprised and shocked for no reason afterwards. Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't remember any red text that explicitly stated the letter was opened "the next day".
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Old 2009-06-18, 13:11   Link #1538
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Well we regard Rosa as a culprit, then the key might not even in the envelope since the beginning. She could just hide it and pretend to pick it from the envelop.

I don't think there's a red text that states that the key was in the letter, isn't it?
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Old 2009-06-18, 13:38   Link #1539
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Yes, there is :P

"This morning, Rosa definitely took out an envelope from Maria's handbag and thereby obtained the genuine key to the chapel."

and

"That which was inside the envelope I entrusted Maria with, was definitely the
key to the chapel."
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Old 2009-06-18, 14:35   Link #1540
Jan-Poo
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Actually.. for that matter, if Maria got the letter after the first twilight, wouldn't Rosa have been opening it the same day rather than the next day?
There is no red text that states when the first twilight happened. It could have happened on the 4 october before midnight.

As for waking up the children it's not like your theory is different you still need to imagine someone going inside the cousin's room when they are sleeping.
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