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Old 2009-06-26, 20:08   Link #1901
MeoTwister5
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Doesn't anyone find it odd that Beato forces the issue of being Asumu's biological son rather than...

Spoiler for OhsNoseSpoilarz!:
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Old 2009-06-26, 20:12   Link #1902
Marion
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Originally Posted by MeoTwister5 View Post
Doesn't anyone find it odd that Beato forces the issue of being Asumu's biological son rather than...

Spoiler for OhsNoseSpoilarz!:
You're not understanding the point of the entire thing.

Spoiler for EP 4 spoilers:
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Old 2009-06-26, 20:13   Link #1903
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Your observation is correct, and soon you'll find the answer. However mind that at this point Battler is too shocked to think straight, after all he's just been told that his mother isn't his real mother.
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Old 2009-06-26, 20:23   Link #1904
Mikachiru
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Originally Posted by maximilianjenus View Post

If natsuhi did anything that challenged krauss authority he would just punch her, like the chauvinistic pig he is.
Something's not right here...


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Now onto more general theories, In Episode 1 most of what we see can be deemed as real and also battler is present on most of those scenes, as the episodes progress battler is present in less and less scenes and beatrice narrates them, thus she just makes stuff up for anything that battler can't know how it happened. Which means not that beatrice wants to confuse battler, but that she is just making stuff up to move everything along.
Wut? If Beatrice can confuse Battler with her magic into thinking magic exists, doesn't she win the game...?

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I think Battler was choosen by beatrice because of his stubborness whereas the other characters, even if they are more clever than battler are going to give up and just accept the witch, battler will keep on fighting until he finds who is the actual culprit.
Spoiler for EP. 2 and 4:


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I am pretty sure some of the misteries and lies are just red herrings and are not related to the killings, so let's say krauss and nanjo are keeping kinzo's death secret, then we think they are culprits, while in the fact that have their own agenda completely unrelated to the killings to keep that secret.
Why would they keep Kinzo condition a secret? Since Kinzo's gold is the subject of the meeting, of course it's related to the killings. I would think Kanon would be the red herring since his corpse is almost alwasy missing...

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I still follow the theory of beatrice forcing a loop not so rika keeps on living with her, but so batler can solve the crimes. beatrice is kanon
..."Rika"? You mean Bern, right? Why would Beatrice waste her time tricking Battler into believing witches exist when she wants him to solves the murders? And where did that last line come from...? I can argue with you about Kanon-Beatrice, but that would be pointless...
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Old 2009-06-26, 20:43   Link #1905
Jan-Poo
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Why would they keep Kinzo condition a secret? Since Kinzo's gold is the subject of the meeting, of course it's related to the killings.
I wouldn't bet my money on that. Something like 2 billions of yen are stored in a central bank to pay relatives of the dead people, and they don't know anything about that. Whoever is this Beatrice I wouldn't really say that she's guided by greed. Plus the way the people are killed and the preposterous charade to make Battler believe in witches is not something a person in his right mind would do. Common sense would dictate that money is one of the primary cause of murder, but it is unlikely that this person has any.
Of course there is a chance that different parties are involved so there might be a crazy person who doesn't care about money, and a second party who helps this crazy person in change of money.
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Old 2009-06-26, 20:57   Link #1906
Marion
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Wut? If Beatrice can confuse Battler with her magic into thinking magic exists, doesn't she win the game...?
No. Beatrice's condition is to make Battler believe in witches and magic. In EP 3 he was going to sign a document saying that he accepted her, so maybe it works something like that. During EP 3 Battler basically said that any magic scene can just be what she shows him into believing magic - but just because he sees it doesn't mean it's actually happening. Because after EP 1 everything is literally viewed through the meta-world, giving Beatrice leverage to throw in some magic moments to mess up Battler.
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Old 2009-06-26, 21:22   Link #1907
Mikachiru
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Originally Posted by Marion View Post
No. Beatrice's condition is to make Battler believe in witches and magic. In EP 3 he was going to sign a document saying that he accepted her, so maybe it works something like that. During EP 3 Battler basically said that any magic scene can just be what she shows him into believing magic - but just because he sees it doesn't mean it's actually happening. Because after EP 1 everything is literally viewed through the meta-world, giving Beatrice leverage to throw in some magic moments to mess up Battler.
That's kinda what I meant...
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Old 2009-06-26, 21:53   Link #1908
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I wanted to wait with this post, but I don't think I can hold it in much longer =P

The reason Beatrice keeps looping the worlds is most probably for Battler to uncover the truth behind the mystery. I don't mean to offend anyone on the magic side of things here, but the whole deny the witch thing is just a facade, we already know they don't exist (in the real world anyway). What Ryukishi is trying to do with Umineko is teach us how to discern truth from fiction.

I hope nobody here (over 20 years old at least) believes that there are pitfal traps installed in the dining room of the mansion, that the culprit used a drug that made people faint instantly, made them fall into a dungeon filled with torture objects straight out of Higurashi complete with a phone and an HD television set, that Kanon is walking around with a burner (?) in his pockets or that there is a 2 kilometer tunnel connecting the mansion to the Kuwadorian. I don't think I need to point out what Ryukishi did there

A much more interesting subject is Beatrice's/Kinzo's gold. It is one of the central themes in the game and goes hand to hand with the concept of the witch. The latter does not exist, but does the former? From the first game we've learned that there exists a golden ingot of unknown origin and unparalleled purity. Supposedly, it has been checked by various experts and was confirmed to be actual gold. Hmm, seems rather fantasish at first, but not unbelievable, this is still a fictional story after all.

Next, Battler sees three such ingots in the chapel, they bear the same crest as the first. Going by the Devil's Proof, there is nothing that prevents them to be real. But are they? Were these bars "made" by the same person or are they fakes that were created for some other purpose? It's somewhat of a 50/50% probability here.

After this, we have Eva who supposedly found 10 tonnes of the thing Now, I'll admit I don't know much about the amount of the gold humanity mined in the world, but from the explanation presented by George in the first episode this seems a bit over the top. And here lies the main question: is it possible for such an amount of gold to truly be hidden on an island somewhere or is it fake that was made for some other reason (or does it even exist at all?) To be honest, I have no clue whatsoever

Truth is what you make it to be (even the red truth is "made" by Ryukishi ). Continuing with the theme of appearances, we are presented with the dilllema of figuring out the true culprit behind the tragedy. As many of you have noticed by now, each episode focuses on particular "suspects". Putting aside the consistently suspicious characters like Krauss, Nanjo and almost everybody else, we have a focus on Natsuhi in episode 1, Rosa in episode 2, Eva in episode 3 and Kyrie in episode 4 (seeing a pattern here?) All are women and mothers, all are potential "witches". Each of them are portrayed in a different light. Natsuhi is a proud and tragic heroine, Rosa is a terrible mother, Eva is a greedy... well she's greedy and Kyrie is Takano pre-flip out mode (although it showed a bit in Episode 3). Ryukishi is playing on our emotions and trying to force us to "choose" a culprit.

I don't want to rain on anyone's parade, but I fear that figuring out the actual culprit at this point is next to impossible. Things like closed rooms, alibis, order of killins, etc are designed to keep you guessing. All the setups so far are based on purely circumstantial evidence. And ANY setup based on circumstancial evidence can be easily destroyed by the smallest addition of evidence X. That evidence is up to Ryukishi (and I get a funny feeling it might not have even been completely decided upon yet). Which is why nothing is for certain yet.

Things like the appearance of golden butterflies, fictional characters, etc are hints at possible hidden lies, but they are by no means actual rules. I won't be surprised if in the next episode we'll see a scene with Kanon peacefully strolling through the garden filled with golden butterflies and surrounded by the full escort of the stakes and in the next scene there will be nothing out of the ordinary except Maria flying on a broom around the mansion.

Personally, I'm still hoping that in the end we'll find out that there really is an extra person on the island, but then we were told that no miracles are going to occur Or is that just on Beato's side? Hmm...

By the way, that theory I posted was still a joke, but it had some interesting points mixed in.

Last edited by Nih; 2009-07-20 at 15:06. Reason: correcting mistakes
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Old 2009-06-26, 22:02   Link #1909
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there is a 2 kilometer tunnel connecting the mansion to the Kuwadorian
I believe that one. It's really not a big deal for someone who can buy a whole island.
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Old 2009-06-26, 22:05   Link #1910
Mikachiru
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Originally Posted by Nih View Post
that Kanon is walking around with a burner (?) in his pockets or that there is a 2 kilometer tunnel connecting the mansion to the Kuwadorian.
Kanon (usually) carries Jessica's inhaler around...why not a burner??

I don't see anything wrong with the underground tunnel...
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Old 2009-06-26, 22:05   Link #1911
Marion
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I think Ryukushi has something against women, because it seems like a female is always a murderer in his stories.

She loops the world over because it's a game she entered with Battler. Honestly, I don't think she made this game just because she felt bored. The entire point of the ceremony was for her to be revived and leave the island, free of Kinzo's cage, going to a 'Golden Land'. I wouldn't be surprised at all if she was forced to make this game by Lambdadelta.
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Old 2009-06-26, 22:08   Link #1912
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This game is (somewhat) forced by super paper 34. Read Ep. 3's tea party.
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Old 2009-06-26, 22:17   Link #1913
lovelysan
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I've seen the "super paper" name used in regards to Lambda Delta before, what does it mean 0_o ?
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Old 2009-06-26, 22:20   Link #1914
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I've seen the "super paper" name used in regards to Lambda Delta before, what does it mean 0_o ?
Read the EP2 tea party and check the doc notes for EP2.
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Last edited by chronotrig; 2009-06-26 at 22:35.
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Old 2009-06-26, 22:49   Link #1915
Bern-chan
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Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
Read the EP2 tea party and check the doc notes for EP2.
Can't you just tell us? ._.
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Old 2009-06-26, 22:50   Link #1916
lovelysan
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Will do! Thanks Chrono !
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Old 2009-06-26, 23:39   Link #1917
Jan-Poo
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Originally Posted by Bern-chan View Post
Can't you just tell us? ._.
It's a rock-paper-scissor analogy

Bernkastel is like scissors
Lambdadelta is like paper
Beatrice is like rock

This means that Bernkastel can defeat Lambdadelta, Lambdadelta can defeat Beatrice and Beatrice can defeat Bernkastel. That is the theory.

However Lambdadelta boasting herself said that if the paper is thick enough even scissors won't be able to cut it and she is "super paper".
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Old 2009-06-26, 23:43   Link #1918
Renall
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
I believe that one. It's really not a big deal for someone who can buy a whole island.
Plus it's actually supported by reasonable evidence. Kinzo vanishes from sight and can't be found, the island is hilly, Kuwadorian independently confirmed in 1998... plenty of reasons to suspect a tunnel. Besides, you'd be overestimating the difficulty of digging a tunnel; it's really not that hard with construction techniques available since before the turn of the century. Certainly Kinzo could've had a small concrete access tunnel up and running by the 50s.
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Old 2009-06-27, 01:21   Link #1919
Freelii
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I'm actually not convinced they were ever in the tunnel (though it probably exists) due to the exit being competely sealed when Battler does his investigation, yet having been described as cut open by Kanon during the imprisoned party's escape.

Perhaps those in Kyrie's doomed group were attempting to flee TO the tunnel, but never made it?

On a side note, in Episode 4, I don't recall that Kanon's corpse was ever found, though it was supposed to be at the bottom of the well... did I miss something?
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Old 2009-06-27, 02:32   Link #1920
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Originally Posted by Freelii View Post
On a side note, in Episode 4, I don't recall that Kanon's corpse was ever found, though it was supposed to be at the bottom of the well... did I miss something?
Battler couldn't open the entrance to the well/tunnel, where Kanon supposedly was. Later, Beatrice confirmed in red that Kanon had died.
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