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Old 2009-06-28, 09:21   Link #1961
Nih
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Actually, even Higurashi can be explained from an anti-fantasy perspective. There's a reason Saikoroshi-hen is called "The Dice Killing Chapter". But it's only one of the many possible interpretations. Kanon and Shannon mentioning they remember things is just another reference by Ryukishi and should not be taken seriously, imo.

Last edited by Nih; 2009-07-20 at 15:13. Reason: Correcting mistakes
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Old 2009-06-28, 09:23   Link #1962
Jan-Poo
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Actually it could have been everyone, since there is a really big gap between them locking up and being found.
So I don't think this closed room is that difficult. Actually none of the closed rooms are as closed as they seem to be.

Also, i kinda start to think that the servants might remember everything. just a hunch. (In Ep 1 they talked like the murders happened often and it could have hit everyone) But this is way to anti-mystery xDD

About the chapel murders in EP 2. Could it be that Rosa opened the letter before she did in front of Battler, just to check whats in it, cause she was worried what was inside? And then put it back without using it? After that someone sneaked in got the key and but it back.
The key didn't pass through anyone's hands. so unless the culprit used his feet to open the door and walked on his hands till there I don't think this is possible.

Anyway the harder closed room to explain imho is Natsuhi's room on Ep2. The only way I can explain it is by saying that whoever checked the body with the key to the room is the one who actually placed it there at that very time. Who was it again?
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Old 2009-06-28, 09:34   Link #1963
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The key didn't pass through anyone hands from the time Maria got the letter till Rosa opened it or so
If Rosa opened already before the time she did in front of Battler, let's say she sneaked into the cousins room at 0:01 to find out if the message for Maria was important or so, saw the key, was a little bit confused and put it back. After that the culprit got in got the key, created the closed room and then put it back to Maria.


I dunno who checked them sorry, I would guess it was Nanjo since he is the doctor and did all the time
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Old 2009-06-28, 09:36   Link #1964
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The thing about the chapel key: while I think the envelope was unsealed sometime after midnight (regardless of whether Rosa was the culprit or not), you have to realize just how fragile that statement is. Because while it may seem stupid, technically, Rosa could have unsealed that envelope at any point in time and after that the part that states that the key did not pass through anyone's hands is no longer in effect.

Last edited by Nih; 2009-07-20 at 15:15. Reason: correcting mistakes
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Old 2009-06-28, 09:41   Link #1965
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nih View Post
The thing about the chapel key: while I think the envelope was unsealed sometime after midnight (regardless of whether Rosa was involved or not), you have to realize just how fragile that statement is. Because while it may seem stupid, technically, Rosa could have unsealed that envelope at any point in time and after that the part that states "the key did not pass through anyone's hands" is no longer in effect.
I'm not entirely sure, but was it ever stated in red that the letter Maria originally received actually the key? If not, then then Maria might have gotten an envelope with something else inside. The mruderer then used the key, still in his possession, to open the chaped door, then placed it in a second envelope, snuck it in Maria's handbag at night and took the original envelope with him.
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Old 2009-06-28, 09:44   Link #1966
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I think I understand now how Ange's chronology of events work now before, during and after the events of the meta world.

Spoiler for Spoilers:


Quote:
I'm not entirely sure, but was it ever stated in red that the letter Maria originally received actually the key? If not, then then Maria might have gotten an envelope with something else inside. The mruderer then used the key, still in his possession, to open the chaped door, then placed it in a second envelope, snuck it in Maria's handbag at night and took the original envelope with him.
It was stated in red that the key was already inside the letter when Maria received it. It is also the only key to enter the chapel with. The only way a human person could have entered to murder or plant the bodies there was with the key, and given the circumstances, this person woud have had to retrieve the key from Maria's bag and replace it there.
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Old 2009-06-28, 09:57   Link #1967
Jan-Poo
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-The contents of the envelope which I gave to Maria was certainly the key to the chapel

This is even better.

As for Kitsu theory, it is certainly possible but do you realize how twisted is this logic? You need to imagine that Rosa sneaked inside the cousin's room just to take a peak inside Maria's letter (after midnight) and then someone else entered the room and took the key. It would make more sense if Rosa herself took the key at that time.
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Old 2009-06-28, 10:04   Link #1968
Kitsu
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Well that could certainly true but I don't like Rosa=culprit

But how about this, Rosa was told to retrieve the key, locked up for them and then she was told to go and lock up after her, for some strange reason. Or she was angry left and childishly locked them up. Then they killed each other and the last one commits suicide
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Old 2009-06-28, 10:23   Link #1969
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
-The contents of the envelope which I gave to Maria was certainly the key to the chapel

This is even better.
.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MeoTwister5 View Post

It was stated in red that the key was already inside the letter when Maria received it. It is also the only key to enter the chapel with. The only way a human person could have entered to murder or plant the bodies there was with the key, and given the circumstances, this person woud have had to retrieve the key from Maria's bag and replace it there.
To be fair, this just means that the letter Maria received definitely held the key. It doesn't, however, gaurantee that the letter Maria got in front of Rosa was the same Rosa pulled out the next morning. If I assume Maria was first handed a trick letter, which was then replaced by the one containing the actual key, the conditions are still satisfied.
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Old 2009-06-28, 10:29   Link #1970
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Well my point in the matter has always been that, while we cannot prove or disprove at this point if that was ever even the same letter, the fact of the matter remains that should a human have been the culprit he needed access to that key and only that key, which means this person would have had to get it from Maria's bag and return it at some point.
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Old 2009-06-28, 10:31   Link #1971
Nih
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I don't like Rosa = the culprit theory either. Partly because I still like the character But mostly because to me that implies illogical behavior on part of the culprit. I hope we can all agree that this crime had to be premeditated and that there was someone present in the garden of episode two. Otherwise why would Maria and Kyrie both claim they saw someone?

I don't think it plausible that the main culprit would recruit accomplices after October 4th. That means they would be taking a major risk. What if Rosa would simply say, no I don't want to? Or are we supposed to think that the mastermind made Rosa an offer she could not refuse then on the spur of the moment Rosa decided to viciously murder her siblings? Not impossible I guess, but to me it seems pretty stupid.

Therefore, the arrangements had to be made before the family conference.
Therefore, if Rosa was an accomplice, there was no reason for her not to know about the contents of the letters. The only possible motive for Rosa I can see at this point is the need for money. This implies to me that "Beatrice" who seems pretty rich promised Rosa a nice compensation. If that were not the case I don't see why Rosa would kill her siblings when her other alternative was to extract money from Krauss with their help. And if Rosa knew everything from the start, that means she pulled off one giant act. Trying to open the letter in front of Maria (why?). Throwing up in the chapel (someone who would help arranging that scene should not have had any problems afterwards imho). And finally, stealing one of the ingots in the end. If she was already promised money, why would she bother? Does this mean something went wrong? If so, what?

To me it seems a lot more logical that Rosa was simply used for the murders by the culprit (along with Maria and Kyrie) to help support the illusion of a witch.

Last edited by Nih; 2009-07-20 at 15:18. Reason: less vague
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Old 2009-06-28, 11:11   Link #1972
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Originally Posted by Serpit View Post
To be fair, this just means that the letter Maria received definitely held the key. It doesn't, however, gaurantee that the letter Maria got in front of Rosa was the same Rosa pulled out the next morning. If I assume Maria was first handed a trick letter, which was then replaced by the one containing the actual key, the conditions are still satisfied.
That is also my theory:

The murder happens before midnight, everything from the time the chapel got opened till the time it was closed happened around 23:00-23:30
Maria receives the letter a little before midnight by "Beatrice", substituting the fake letter with the new letter
Rosa the next morning opens the new letter and obtains the key to the chapel


What is not clear is why Rosa left the chapel and doesn't tell anyone what happened. Why she only suspects the servants instead of Beatrice?


I do not like the theory that Rosa is the culprit either, however finding an explanation to "save" her is very difficult...
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Old 2009-06-28, 11:28   Link #1973
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I've figured out the mastermind of ep2. It was all so obvious!

Spoiler for Episode 2, Cracked:
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Old 2009-06-28, 11:34   Link #1974
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I think she "suspects" the servants because (while it's likely she was in the chapel), she did not know that the siblings would be killed afterwards. If she is innocent, there are several possibilities here: one could be she does not think "Beatrice" commited the crime alone and another could be that she knows that she is a prime suspect, so she is frantically trying to place suspicion on everyone else (even poor Battler wasn't spared ).
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Old 2009-06-28, 11:41   Link #1975
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
I've figured out the mastermind of ep2. It was all so obvious!

Spoiler for Episode 2, Cracked:
I laughed so hard at this :'D

it'd be so cool if it were really true
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Old 2009-06-28, 12:11   Link #1976
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I've figured out the mastermind of ep2. It was all so obvious!

Spoiler for Episode 2, Cracked:
YOU GOT MEEEEEEEEEEEEE

|D lulz~
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Old 2009-06-28, 12:35   Link #1977
Alaya
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Originally Posted by MeoTwister5 View Post
I think I understand now how Ange's chronology of events work now before, during and after the events of the meta world.

Spoiler for Spoilers:
I think Ange of 1998 and ANGE in the meta world are completely different entity. ANGE is more likely a piece (or a witch) create by Ange in 1998 (and Bern, maybe). I look at Meta world as a place exist out of time axis and only witches and pieces can exist there.

Well, I also think that Battler in the meta world also a piece created by real Battler (or at least entity create by Battler in one of the world) and Bern too.

Actually, how many layer of games are there? I think we have a game between Lambda and Bern-chan. Pieces of this game are Battler (Meta) and Beatrice. Then we have Battler playing with Beatrice. Their pieces are people on Rokkenjima during 2 days of the family conference. Battler is capable of controlling his piece (Battler in the game board) and Beatrice can control the rest (I guess).
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Old 2009-06-28, 12:56   Link #1978
Marion
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Actually if you look at a chessboard the number of pieces each side has is 16. But there are 17 humans, including Battler. If you want, you can say Battler doesn't have his own piece on the board. But you can also say that one of the 17 is the culprit and that piece was transferred to Beatrice's side at the start of the game.

Oh, first post on page 100! Do I get a prize ?
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Old 2009-06-28, 12:59   Link #1979
Kitsu
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You get a sparkling butterfly

And ...I as a chess loving person didn't notice that xDD
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Old 2009-06-28, 13:25   Link #1980
Alaya
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To me, it's more like Battler is the only white piece on the board, where the rest are black...
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