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View Poll Results: To Aru Majutsu no Index - Episode 9 Rating
Perfect 10 18 30.00%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 16 26.67%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 12 20.00%
7 out of 10 : Good 10 16.67%
6 out of 10 : Average 1 1.67%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 0 0%
4 out of 10 : Poor 2 3.33%
3 out of 10 : Bad 1 1.67%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 0 0%
Voters: 60. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2008-12-01, 19:48   Link #81
Chaos2Frozen
The Evil Within
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tshengchao View Post
And for Izzard unable to save Index 3 years ago even if he has Ars Magna, why not just say that his magic cannot penetrate the "Walking Church"?
Because the Walking Church is only a defense from an offensive attack ?


Quote:
Originally Posted by tshengchao View Post
I am really hoping for some concrete reasonings by the author extracted from the novels if possible from the users as I don't think we are getting far substituting our opinions as per-se logic for the story itself. Sure this and that could have happened, but I don't feel at ease with the freaky loose storytelling the the anime asking audiences to do guesswork for every of the illogical things the character do to the story
The reasoning is there, but you just choose not to see it, subsituting the responsibility to use your head alittle for excuse of saying that it's 'illogical'.

Remember? You can't help but find fault with this series.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SkoolRumble4Ya View Post
I don't get why Stiyl still obey the church even though he was lied too the whole time. I better not see another arc about some old guy taking care of Index. I never knew Mikoto have a twin sister.
You know that technically this is the first arc about 'some old guy taking care of Index' right?

Anyway, Forever has the right idea- By staying with the Church, he can get more information, in his own way he can still protect Index.

The difference now is that he probably isn't going to blindly listen to everything they say.
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Old 2008-12-01, 20:40   Link #82
tshengchao
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Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by tshengchao View Post
And for Izzard unable to save Index 3 years ago even if he has Ars Magna, why not just say that his magic cannot penetrate the "Walking Church"?
Because the Walking Church is only a defense from an offensive attack ?
Then here you would have another blind spot where there is a need for the Walking Church to possess cognition in order to identify "offensive attacks". You are saying that if Komoe does healing on Index with fully functional Walking Church, the magic would pass through. And you are sure of yourself enough to instantly create a extra recognition function on the Walking Church which the anime did not illustrate just like that. And you cannot say something frivolous like:"Of course the Walking Church would know! It was made to protect Index!!" cause if not your intellectual image of saying
Quote:
The reasoning is there, but you just choose not to see it, subsituting the responsibility to use your head alittle for excuse of saying that it's 'illogical'.

Remember? You can't help but find fault with this series.
would be lost by you sinking into yet another of your assumptions.

Thats the problem I was talking about. You are not the author of this, god knows if the real writer would come up with something later on that would disprove and therefore make illogical of your supposed 'answer' to the discrepancies. That is why I ask for novel citations

I'm not saying that your interpretation wasn't good. Geddit?

Well, I admit I am getting aggressive here. It must be my personal quirk of disliking others of reminding me of what I said.

And regarding
Quote:
subsituting the responsibility to use your head alittle for excuse of saying that it's 'illogical'
, I actually responsibly used my head in order to reach the conclusions in my previous posts, not like you have noticed it seems.

And let's keep bashing on the 'evidence to support your claims level' shall we?

Quoting my own entire post:
Then Izzard gets pissed and tries to kill the duo because they trampled on his emotions!? WTF is wrong with Izzard? Touma saved Index for you and so you should thank him, not try to kill him? Though Styil was always the one to persistently spoke in a demeaning manner...

Next, did Izzard really forget that he can use Ars Magna to save Index? The alchemist magic supposedly allows the user's thoughts to become reality. So if Izzard sets his mind to say that Index is free of her problem, the same result should occur in reality. Following my logic, the argument of Ars Magna's effect being temporary (as in it could only have 'freed Index of her problems' in this particular moment only and afterwards her condition will revert) should not hold. This is so as Izzard was actively using Ars Magna to change the reality around him(remember the shattered building?)
and his reality did not fall apart by time or even the *user's ability to use magic*<-if the creators are even planning of using logic to tie up loose ends/explain the story after introducing difficult plot devices like the concept of Ars Magna(note even at the end of the episode the building was there).

This sums up on the more irritating problems that bothered me in the episode. In all what this anime seeks are flashy effects/phenomena which upon further inquisition breaks itself up like kamikaze planes. If I wanna add, the main character had a pretty screwed up mentailty as well.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I hope I argued by logic and evidences from the show itself but not guess work

Quote:
Ars Magna is complicating, there might be alot of limitations. For Index's case, even if he thinks of saving her, it wouldn't work if he doesn't know how exactly to do it.

So I think some things require more precision than others.

Last edited by Pellissier; 2008-12-03 at 01:37. Reason: please use the "edit" button instead of double posting
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Old 2008-12-01, 21:19   Link #83
KaneDragon
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You seem to have ignored other posts before this that have already discussed this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tshengchao View Post
Then Izzard gets pissed and tries to kill the duo because they trampled on his emotions!? WTF is wrong with Izzard? Touma saved Index for you and so you should thank him, not try to kill him?
He was jealous at being beaten to the punch after dedicating the last three years to finding a "cure". And he was trying to kill them before, remember? Himegami had to put herself in front of Touma to convince Aureolus to spare him. Don't expect complete mental stability from this guy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tshengchao View Post
Next, did Izzard really forget that he can use Ars Magna to save Index? The alchemist magic supposedly allows the user's thoughts to become reality. So if Izzard sets his mind to say that Index is free of her problem, the same result should occur in reality.
No, he can't. He is under the belief that Index's memory wipes are an inevitable result of running out of memory. Ars Magna won't work because he doesn't believe it would.

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Originally Posted by tshengchao View Post
I hope I argued by logic and evidences from the show itself but not guess work
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Old 2008-12-01, 21:24   Link #84
Chaos2Frozen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tshengchao View Post
Then here you would have another blind spot where there is a need for the Walking Church to possess cognition in order to identify "offensive attacks". You are saying that if Komoe does healing on Index with fully functional Walking Church, the magic would pass through. And you are sure of yourself enough to instantly create a extra recognition function on the Walking Church which the anime did not illustrate just like that. And you cannot say something frivolous like:"Of course the Walking Church would know! It was made to protect Index!!" cause if not your intellectual image of saying would be lost by you sinking into yet another of your assumptions.
Facepalm.

Hey genius, guess what? Way back in episode one Index had already said that Walking Church would absorb any impact done by Physcial or Magical attacks. I don't know about you, but I can say THAT is the definition of an offensive attacks that I'm refering to, anything that can harm Index bodily.

And yeah, with that, we can safely say that Walking CHurch can clearly identify which spell is harmful to it's owner.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tshengchao View Post
Thats the problem I was talking about. You are not the author of this, god knows if the real writer would come up with something later on that would disprove and therefore make illogical of your supposed 'answer' to the discrepancies. That is why I ask for novel citations.

I'm not saying that your interpretation wasn't good. Geddit?
*coughspoonfeedingcough*

>.>

Quote:
Originally Posted by tshengchao View Post
Well, I admit I am getting aggressive here. It must be my personal quirk of disliking others of reminding me of what I said.
It's my habit to use people's words against them, nothing completely personal.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tshengchao View Post
And regarding , I actually responsibly used my head in order to reach the conclusions in my previous posts, not like you have noticed it seems.
Yeah right, you even forgotten that Index's problem isn't cause by her memories in the first place.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tshengchao View Post
Quoting my own entire post:
Then Izzard gets pissed and tries to kill the duo because they trampled on his emotions!? WTF is wrong with Izzard? Touma saved Index for you and so you should thank him, not try to kill him? Though Styil was always the one to persistently spoke in a demeaning manner...
You spent three years of your life, lock up in some basement, obessed with saving someone that you couldn't and failed to save.

Three years later, you've finally found a solution! You risk everything, betrayed your church, ran from attackers, set up shop in a new city.

You've planned for everything, collected all the pieces and brought them together, three years of sweat and blood comes down to this day...

...And then you're told offhandedly that some brat took less than a week to solve what you couldn't have done?!

Izzard snapped, simple as that.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tshengchao View Post
Next, did Izzard really forget that he can use Ars Magna to save Index? The alchemist magic supposedly allows the user's thoughts to become reality. So if Izzard sets his mind to say that Index is free of her problem, the same result should occur in reality. Following my logic, the argument of Ars Magna's effect being temporary (as in it could only have 'freed Index of her problems' in this particular moment only and afterwards her condition will revert) should not hold. This is so as Izzard was actively using Ars Magna to change the reality around him(remember the shattered building?)
and his reality did not fall apart by time or even the *user's ability to use magic*<-if the creators are even planning of using logic to tie up loose ends/explain the story after introducing difficult plot devices like the concept of Ars Magna(note even at the end of the episode the building was there).

Nope, as it turns out, you were under the assumption that Izzard always had Ars Magna, but the truth is, he only had it recently.

But just to humor you, I said that Ars Magna might require more precision for somethings than others. Like Index's problem might require a more specific solution instead of just "Fix all of her problems".

But okay, I'll humor you even more, The Necklace that is the auto-defense system that the Church had in place within Index has access to the spells of the 103000 tomes in her head. There is without a doubt that it can formula a defense against Ars Magna, like what Index say- If you know all the magic in the world, you can counter all magical attacks.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tshengchao View Post
This sums up on the more irritating problems that bothered me in the episode. In all what this anime seeks are flashy effects/phenomena which upon further inquisition breaks itself up like kamikaze planes. If I wanna add, the main character had a pretty screwed up mentailty as well.

I hope I argued by logic and evidences from the show itself but not guess work
The difference is, you intentional seek out parts that would prove your so-called illogical set up, while I seek out the parts which would explain the situation.
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Old 2008-12-01, 21:37   Link #85
Guardian Enzo
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Old 2008-12-01, 22:03   Link #86
tshengchao
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You seem to have ignored other posts before this that have already discussed this.

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Originally Posted by tshengchao View Post
Then Izzard gets pissed and tries to kill the duo because they trampled on his emotions!? WTF is wrong with Izzard? Touma saved Index for you and so you should thank him, not try to kill him?
He was jealous at being beaten to the punch after dedicating the last three years to finding a "cure". And he was trying to kill them before, remember? Himegami had to put herself in front of Touma to convince Aureolus to spare him. Don't expect complete mental stability from this guy.
I was WTF-ing because of his reaction not the reason behind him blowing up. Of course I knew he was pissed when touma accomplished what he couldn't. But what kind of self-respecting PERSON would pounce on another just because he did what you desperately wanted to do and succeeded(the scenario being both of them wanting to save Index). So sure, there will be some frustration on Izzard's side, but you won't kill touma for TRAMPLING ON YOUR FEELINGS would u? (Like when I'm a scientist researching a Aids cure, someone else got it, even if his assistant laughed at me like Styil did, I won't show how much of a petty person I am by KILLING him right? If I am still pissed, the most I would do is to poke at his (maybe other) theories)

Of course, I'm under the assumption that Izzard is supposed act nobly. But thats the impression the anime gave me when they portrayed Izzard saying some poetic nonsense (note before touma and styil went to his office when there was only Izzard, Himegami and Index in the office) about the lofty ideal of him saving saving Index by "taking a stray path from human reasoning". In any case, I am sorry for even believing that the anime would give me a character who would stick by his portrayed tendencies(as a matter of fact, I have another of this kinda dysfunctional act committed by another character as well).

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by tshengchao View Post
Next, did Izzard really forget that he can use Ars Magna to save Index? The alchemist magic supposedly allows the user's thoughts to become reality. So if Izzard sets his mind to say that Index is free of her problem, the same result should occur in reality.
No, he can't. He is under the belief that Index's memory wipes are an inevitable result of running out of memory. Ars Magna won't work because he doesn't believe it would.
Okay! I shall say again. I am targetting the guesswork portion. If you ever expect to convince me, PLEASE quote the novel or an interview from the author. DONT tell me he "can't". I was posing this as a query, I want citations. And you are sure that he "can't", he told you in your dreams?

Not like I am not analyzing your claim. Think properly, you are saying that Ars Magna wouldn't work to change the colour a tree which produces orange coloured leaves. Since no matter how much you remove/change the current colour of the leaves, the following leaves that grow out would still be orange in colour. THEN FFS change the tree to a purple leaves producing tree? That's what I meant when I said that Ars Magna can be made to cure Index if it was used more generally. My bottomline for this in order to make it not guesswork is the fact the anime told me Ars Magna can make thoughts into reality. Why yours was fail was 'cause you believed that the anime should make sense and therefore make your own conclusions which has no base on anything concrete.

@Chaos2Frozen
Your point about the necklace being able to identify all magics due to the library of grimores I accept and therefore my point of you inventing an extra function is false. I apologise.

Next,
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by tshengchao View Post
Thats the problem I was talking about. You are not the author of this, god knows if the real writer would come up with something later on that would disprove and therefore make illogical of your supposed 'answer' to the discrepancies. That is why I ask for novel citations.

I'm not saying that your interpretation wasn't good. Geddit?
*coughspoonfeedingcough*
Did you even read what I wrote properly? I am saying that its not good to sleepwalk and reach a conclusion to any part of the story which needs more explanation. Instead, I ask for people who know the original, to come up and shed some light on the matter. All these so that we can get the perfect unclouded story out. Since I am wondering how sure can you be about the exact processing procedures of Ars Magna? This is nessary spoonfeeding, and if I wanted it, you can/should say nothing about it.

Quote:
The difference is, you intentional seek out parts that would prove your so-called illogical set up, while I seek out the parts which would explain the situation.
Again, if everyone started giving their own maybes or whatnots I can come up with one too! Actually Touma and Index was married in the future and their cute daughter inherited the 103000 texts. Her daughter(named Epilogue btw) used the knowledge in the grimores to travel back to the past. She was in England where the priests doing the Choir spell was, and she nearly stopped the priests if she had not taken a teabreak in the middle. Her motive for coming back was to hog her father all to herself and kick her mom out of the picture. Can you completely disprove of this? What if the author was browsing in animesuki forums and he decided to copy my exact storyline to meet his dateline?

Last edited by Pellissier; 2008-12-03 at 01:38. Reason: please use the "edit" button instead of double posting
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Old 2008-12-01, 22:57   Link #87
zetsubou-san
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Quote:
Again, if everyone started giving their own maybes or whatnots I can come up with one too! Actually Touma and Index was married in the future and their cute daughter inherited the 103000 texts. Her daughter(named Epilogue btw) used the knowledge in the grimores to travel back to the past. She was in England where the priests doing the Choir spell was, and she nearly stopped the priests if she had not taken a teabreak in the middle. Her motive for coming back was to hog her father all to herself and kick her mom out of the picture. Can you completely disprove of this? What if the author was browsing in animesuki forums and he decided to copy my exact storyline to meet his dateline?
Well wouldn't that be a situation that describes the Grandfather paradox?

It wouldn't make sense for a hypothetical Epilogue to get her mom out of the picture. But I can imagine animesuki forumites having a field day with the subject if it ever goes down this path.
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Old 2008-12-01, 23:02   Link #88
tshengchao
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tshengchao View Post
Next, did Izzard really forget that he can use Ars Magna to save Index? The alchemist magic supposedly allows the user's thoughts to become reality. So if Izzard sets his mind to say that Index is free of her problem, the same result should occur in reality. Following my logic, the argument of Ars Magna's effect being temporary (as in it could only have 'freed Index of her problems' in this particular moment only and afterwards her condition will revert) should not hold. This is so as Izzard was actively using Ars Magna to change the reality around him(remember the shattered building?)
and his reality did not fall apart by time or even the *user's ability to use magic*<-if the creators are even planning of using logic to tie up loose ends/explain the story after introducing difficult plot devices like the concept of Ars Magna(note even at the end of the episode the building was there).

Nope, as it turns out, you were under the assumption that Izzard always had Ars Magna, but the truth is, he only had it recently.

But just to humor you, I said that Ars Magna might require more precision for somethings than others. Like Index's problem might require a more specific solution instead of just "Fix all of her problems".

But okay, I'll humor you even more, The Necklace that is the auto-defense system that the Church had in place within Index has access to the spells of the 103000 tomes in her head. There is without a doubt that it can formula a defense against Ars Magna, like what Index say- If you know all the magic in the world, you can counter all magical attacks.
So, since you are seeking to make the parts more understandable, tell why Izzard's reaction of such as he have shown when Styil started querying "Why did you not use Ars Magna to save Index"?(He looked pretty pissed at that moment). Knowing whether Ars Magna will work or not on Index does not matter when Izzard never even used it on Index. The question is as such: "Why? O' prophet? Why couldn't Izzard have used Ars Magna which he must have procured minimally at the time when he saved the crashing building and use it on Index 1st?" Or maybe he had used it if you are a believer of self generated content. Just that Index did not have the problem of memory at all so it didn't work! And I'll tell you this anime is shit because I watched it and I totally didnt know.

@zetsubou
lol you'll never know with magics and such. They are even at the point of creating matter already

Last edited by Pellissier; 2008-12-03 at 01:38. Reason: please use the "edit" button instead of double posting
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Old 2008-12-01, 23:15   Link #89
Chaos2Frozen
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Forget it, you're overcomplicating things base on your inability to sees things from other people's position. If you're not going to kill someone for stealing your thunder, kudos to you, you're a big man. But sadly, most people in this world aren't as noble and openminded as you are. Humans can be petty for less reasons, it's not uncommon at all.

And to use a magic that can alter reality (to some extent)... Doesn't it tell you what kind of person he is on the inside?


Quote:
Originally Posted by tshengchao View Post

Did you even read what I wrote properly? I am saying that its not good to sleepwalk and reach a conclusion to any part of the story which needs more explanation. Instead, I ask for people who know the original, to come up and shed some light on the matter. All these so that we can get the perfect unclouded story out. Since I am wondering how sure can you be about the exact processing procedures of Ars Magna? This is nessary spoonfeeding, and if I wanted it, you can/should say nothing about it.
Mah~ You are right about wanting confirmation from the Novel for all the reason you've stated...

... But to turn it around, it sounds almost like you're not willing to speculate because you don't want to be wrong later now.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tshengchao View Post
Again, if everyone started giving their own maybes or whatnots I can come up with one too! Actually Touma and Index was married in the future and their cute daughter inherited the 103000 texts. Her daughter(named Epilogue btw) used the knowledge in the grimores to travel back to the past. She was in England where the priests doing the Choir spell was, and she nearly stopped the priests if she had not taken a teabreak in the middle. Her motive for coming back was to hog her father all to herself and kick her mom out of the picture. Can you completely disprove of this? What if the author was browsing in animesuki forums and he decided to copy my exact storyline to meet his dateline?
I would say, whatever it is that you're smoking, you should stop skimping out and start getting on the good stuff

No seriously, unless you can prove within the contents of the series that any of my theories were wrong, I don't see why we can't use them. Likewise, if yours would make sense, I wouldn't stop you... I might even adopt the idea!

The thing is, and this is my belief, if you want the author to explain every little detail of every little thing, then that is spoonfeeding. By leaving some things to our imagination, we can have amazing discussions like this. But that wouldn't happen if people just shrug it off and label it as 'illogical' without even considering the possibilities.

By 'you', I meant the generic term.
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Old 2008-12-01, 23:59   Link #90
tshengchao
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Quote:
Forget it, you're overcomplicating things base on your inability to sees things from other people's position.
explain please. I shall treat this as more of a life lesson if you are able to educate me. 'Cause I'm gonna need help for the way I talk to people.

Quote:
And to use a magic that can alter reality (to some extent)... Doesn't it tell you what kind of person he is on the inside?
I duno what is this supposed to tell me. please explain.

Quote:
Mah~ You are right about wanting confirmation from the Novel for all the reason you've stated...

... But to turn it around, it sounds almost like you're not willing to speculate because you don't want to be wrong later now.
Indeed. I don't have any fetish to be in the wrong.

Quote:
No seriously, unless you can prove within the contents of the series that any of my theories were wrong, I don't see why we can't use them.
I don't see why we should use them. I don't see the reason to believe in possible/plausible rumors when there is a source in the form of the novel that would tell us the truth. I don't want to know 'To Aru Majutsu no Index' by Chaos2Frozen. I wanna know 'To Aru Majutsu no Index' by Kazuma Kamachi.

Quote:
The thing is, and this is my belief, if you want the author to explain every little detail of every little thing, then that is spoonfeeding. By leaving some things to our imagination, we can have amazing discussions like this. But that wouldn't happen if people just shrug it off and label it as 'illogical' without even considering the possibilities.
I think that leaving things to imaginations is good. Though only so if there is a well structured set of rules(eg basic physical reasonings for magic like why espers cannot use magic and whatnot). Just like modern science going into detailed substomic levels to find out why substances behave they do compared to the time when mythology states where the sun is (whatwashisname? riding his chariot of fire across the sky)<-Both ways you'll get conclusions but the 1st would have more base evidences. I believe I have considered the possibilities as written as yours, but was saying that I feel that its "illogical" wrong?

Maybe i will go onto another of my illogical characters example. try and see if you can agree with me. I wonder if you would feel weird when a shounen anime protagonist starts brutally mutilating his ex-teammate corpse (his ex-teammate was corrupted by evil or something and then attacked the party) without any hint that he might have some mental disorder or anything. I would think the stereotypical character would hug the friend's corpse to tears. though not as extreme my example: @the second episode(this might be at the wrong thread..) I remembered Styil stepping on Index's face when Index was in 'recovery mode'(by my example, corrupted by evil). Styil's reasons aside, Index was still Index. And then in the later episode 3, he started emo-ing about Index. then i was puzzled. if you are able to, please tell me if I was wrong to expect normal behaviour from styil?

Last edited by tshengchao; 2008-12-02 at 00:33. Reason: spelling
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Old 2008-12-02, 00:39   Link #91
Chaos2Frozen
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Age: 25
*coughspoonfeedingcough*


Quote:
Originally Posted by tshengchao View Post
explain please. I shall treat this as more of a life lesson if you are able to educate me. 'Cause I'm gonna need help for the way I talk to people.
*copy/paste*

If you're not going to kill someone for stealing your thunder, kudos to you, you're a big man. But sadly, most people in this world aren't as noble and openminded as you are. Humans can be petty for less reasons, it's not uncommon at all.

There is no clear cut reason, some people just aren't happy to have somebody else one up them.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tshengchao View Post
I duno what is this supposed to tell me. please explain.
That he wants to be in control of things

*coughspoonfeedingcough*


Quote:
Originally Posted by tshengchao View Post
I don't see why we should use them. I don't see the reason to believe in possible/plausible rumors when there is a source in the form of the novel that would tell us the truth. I don't want to know 'To Aru Majutsu no Index' by Chaos2Frozen. I wanna know 'To Aru Majutsu no Index' by Kazuma Kamachi.
So go ahead tough guy, prove that I'm wrong.

Oh by the way, what I meant was that if there isn't an explaination given by the author, then there is no harm with coming up with your own theories.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tshengchao View Post
I think that leaving things to imaginations is good. Though only so if there is a well structured set of rules(eg basic physical reasonings for magic like why espers cannot use magic and whatnot). Just like modern science going into detailed substomic levels to find out why substances behave they do compared to the time when mythology states where the sun is (whatwashisname? riding his chariot of fire across the sky)<-Both ways you'll get conclusions but the 1st would have more base evidences. I believe I have considered the possibilities as written as yours, but was saying that I feel that its "illogical" wrong?
*coughspoonfeedingcough*

You don't need to know about subatomic particle or mythology to figure out how things work. The anime itself have given enough details to come to reasonable conclusion. While I agree that having more sources would help, I don't see why their is a need to produce an entire science book to explain each and every single point.

You don't need to be a doctor to get the idea how your body works.

And Why yes, if you come to the wrong conclusion, I believe we can call it 'wrong'.



Quote:
Originally Posted by tshengchao View Post
Maybe i will go onto another of my illogical characters example. try and see if you can agree with me. I wonder if you would feel weird when a shounen anime protagonist starts brutally mutilating his ex-teammate corpse (his ex-teammate was corrupted by evil or something and then attacked the party) without any hint that he might have some mental disorder or anything.


I would think the stereotypical character would hug the friend's corpse to tears. though not as extreme my example: @the second episode(this might be at the wrong thread..) I remembered Styil stepping on Index's face when Index was in 'revovery mode'(by my example, corrupted by evil). Styil's reasons aside, Index was still Index. And then in the later episode 3, he started emo-ing about Index. then i was puzzled. if you are able to, please tell me if I was wrong to expect normal behaviour from styil?

Yes, because stepping on one's face equals 'brutally mutilating', interesting thought pattern, but okay, I'll bite.

From a practical point of view, Stiyl is a 'soldier' of the Church, and having someone reveal his fighting secrets to the enemy is never a good thing, as his defeat later on would show this point.

So if you can think of another way to silence the system that had taken over Index, please point out some ideas.

To add another practical reason, in front of an enemy, he cannot be seen as weak or soft, so it could be a tough guy act.

From an emotional point of view, to him, what he stepped on wasn't Index, but the damn system that had taken over her. Over the years of hunting down Index, Stiyl must have grown to hate that system. So yeah, the body is still Index, but that which he kicked isn't her.

We even saw him looking remorseful when Touma was gone.
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Old 2008-12-02, 01:34   Link #92
tshengchao
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Well I sure don't think I am wrong, just as how you feel sure of yourself.
Quote:
And Why yes, if you come to the wrong conclusion, I believe we can call it 'wrong'.
Was I wrong say what I believed in because you thought it was wrong? It just did not seem logical to me? Did you even put yourself in the position of someone who just cannot accept certain things that are nether right or wrong(since it varies among people, by your """"If you're not going to kill someone for stealing your thunder, kudos to you, you're a big man. But sadly, most people in this world aren't as noble and openminded as you are. Humans can be petty for less reasons, it's not uncommon at all."""" example?)

whatever happened to my right of expression? bah Forget it, you're overcomplicating things base on your inability to sees things from other people's position.

So... anyone who has the ability (where you don't even know anything of his history) to make thoughts into reality is a control freak? As always you are so sure of yourself.

practical reasonings abound. so you actually feel that "since i have so much of practical reasonings" Styil's actions to index are justified? truth is, no matter how much reasons you can spew, I just cant bear for this "bad guy" which i thought he was by his actions, to come over and emo as if he did nothing wrong from the start.
you are only linking up plausible points for the actions of styil, points which might be totally off should the story unfold and show styil as really a spy from the church from the start and he was only faking as index's friend. I haven't got anything of the story other than from the anime, but it wouldn't be impossible would it? for some bigger than you have imagined plot to unfold before the end of the story. Thats why I say stick to the original.

Of course you wouldnt listen to me since you must have one up on me. But, my stand still holds, no matter how beautifully you can support the seemingly illogical(to me) character's actions, it would mean nothing unless its factually written down. The most the would happen if the plot suddenly changes and your interpretations would not fit would be that you WILL change your mind again and sprout more practical reasonings. So what would that mean to the readers and me who's desperately re-iterating my stand? A waste of time?
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Old 2008-12-02, 03:36   Link #93
Chaos2Frozen
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Wow, for someone who asked me for my thoughts on things, you sure are testy about it when I give them. After all, you're the one that brought up Stiyl from out of the blues.

If you're not going to care about what I say, then why do you ask about them?


Lets restart from the begin, as things are getting messy to keep track.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Problem Number 1: You couldn't understand why Izzard would want to kill Touma even though Touma was the one who saved Index. Two of us answered you by saying that how he couldn't accept being outdone by a brat when he himself has given up three years of his life to come up with a solution that is no longer needed.

You responsed by saying how you understood his reasons, but you couldn't accept why he response the way he did. I had to add later that not many people are so big hearted as to forgive someone for making three years of their life meaningless. Nobody said anything about it being right, but we all understood why he snapped.

So after I repeated myself again, as you've personally requested me to do so, you suddenly responsed by saying how I can't put myself in your position who cannot accept certain things that are neither right nor wrong, and I'm like wondering where the heck that came from?

What? You can't accept that certain people are flawed that way or something? I'm confused, what can't you accept?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Problem Number 2: Of course, you can have your right to express your opinion, I've never said you can't say them. But if I believe them to be wrongful, I won't hesistate to correct you.

Also, this is leading to many confusion as we don't have something specific to talk about.

What I thought you were wrong about -

1. Calling Izzard action against Toum for not making sense.

2. Why Izzard didn't use Ars Magna to save Index. Which we later settled on an agreement, but you certainly did give alot of weird reasons that would never have worked

3. The main problem about our disagreement; You wouldn't accept any explaination or speculations that isn't confirmed in the Novel. So what if somewhere down the road we were proven wrong? We'll just laugh it off and replace our theory with the new official explaination.

But until that day, if the theory fits, use it.

I can't stand people, in general, that just writes things off as illogical without thinking about possibilities. Of course, I don't mean crack-pot ideas, but if it make sense with the given setting, then I say go for it.
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Old 2008-12-02, 03:37   Link #94
tshengchao
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「はい。私はイギリス清教内、第|零《ゼロ》聖堂区『|必要悪の教会《ネセサリウス》』所属の魔道書図書館 です。正式名称はIndex-Librorum-Prohibitorumですが、呼び名は略称の|禁書目録《インデックス》で結構です」
 魔道書図書館―――禁書目録という生き方に、上条は自分を殺そうとする|炎の巨神《イノケンテイウス》の 事さえ忘れそうになってしまう。それほどまでの『寒気』がそこにある。
「自己紹介が済みましたら、元のルーン魔術に説明を戻します。―――それは簡単に言えば、夜の湖に映る月と 同じいくら|水面《みなも》を|剣《つるぎ》で切り裂いても意味はありません。水面に映る月を|斬《き 》りたければ、まずは夜空に浮かぶ本物の月に|刃《やいば》を向けなければ」
 そこまで『説明』されて、上条はようやく|目の前の敵《イノケンテイウス》の事を思い出した 。
 ようは、これは『異能の力』の本体[#「本体」に傍点]ではない、という事か? 写真とネガのように、ど こかでこの炎の巨神を作っている『他の異能の力』を|潰《つぶ》さない限り、何度でも復活して しまう?
 この期に及んで、上条はまだインデックスの言葉を完全に信じられなかった。
 どこまで行っても、魔術なんて存在しないという『常識』という言葉が胸にこびりつく。
 しかし、『|魔女狩りの王《イノケンテイウス》』に右手を封じられて身動きが取れない状態では、どの道試 してみる繍ゴ蟄ない.血まみれのインデ。クスに協力を仰ぐというのも難しい話だろう、
「|灰は灰に《Ash To Ash》――――」
 ギョッとした。炎の巨神の向こうで、ステイルは右手に炎剣を生み出している。
「――――|塵は塵に《Dust TO Dust》――――」
 さらにもう一本。左手には青白く燃える|炎剣《えんけん》が音もなく伸びる。
「――――――――――――|吸血殺しの紅十字《Squeamish Bloody Rood》!」
 力ある言葉と同時、左右から炎の巨神ごと引き裂くように、大ハサミのように二本の炎剣が水平に襲いかかる 。『魔女狩りの王』に右手を封じられた上条はこれ以上防ぐ事ができない。
(ヤ、バ――――――とりあえず、逃げ―――――――――ッ!!)
 上条|当麻《とうま》が何かを叫ぶ前に。
 二本の炎剣と炎の巨神が激突し、一つの巨大な爆弾と化して大爆発を巻き起こした。

I cannot read quickly nor can I confirm the little I understood so I only took out a part in the novel where it starts with Index's mechanical personality talking till Touma ran away from the double pronged atk by innocentis and the vampire killing red cross. assuming the anime followed exactly the sequences(and of course if I didnt understand wrongly), the novel did not feature styil stepping on anyone.

is there anyone who has read further and/or before (since I only took this part) and is able to confirm the face stepping??

P1)I have a choice to accept things whether they make exceptional sense or not. So from this I mean I can be a free thinker in spite of so many people saying that religion is a good explanation of the world. So what I cannot accept is Izzard snapping like he did and let my expectations down considering his previous noble speech and thus my categorisation of him to be a nice and noble vanguard of Index.

P2) If you keep correcting me and say I'm wrong, do you think that I would just shut up and submit to your will? lol
1)I thought i typed somewhere before that I was WTF-ing at his response? Then u jumped up with your explanations? and I agreed and finally realised his reasons? Though I still won't like him with his petty nature.
2)If I agreed with you. Then ITS SET? You are not such a control freak that I must accomodate to all your whims right?
3)Yup. You're saying that you'll laugh it off. I cannot. Thats why I was opposing you all the way?

I think I overused the word 'illogical' when in later cases I didnt really mean it. So, my bad.(I 1st used to to say that its illogical to let a "supposed good guy" do things that his character should not allow him to do.)

Argh, I was hoping for people who have the novel to come to this forum but turns up that we are only interested in theories here. I'll just go *try* and read it myself.

Last edited by Pellissier; 2008-12-03 at 01:39. Reason: please use the "edit" button instead of making several consecutive posts in a short timespan
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Old 2008-12-02, 06:28   Link #95
Chaos2Frozen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tshengchao View Post
P1)I have a choice to accept things whether they make exceptional sense or not. So from this I mean I can be a free thinker in spite of so many people saying that religion is a good explanation of the world. So what I cannot accept is Izzard snapping like he did and let my expectations down considering his previous noble speech and thus my categorisation of him to be a nice and noble vanguard of Index.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tshengchao View Post
I think I overused the word 'illogical' when in later cases I didnt really mean it. So, my bad.(I 1st used to to say that its illogical to let a "supposed good guy" do things that his character should not allow him to do.)
New error buddy.

It was a mistake to think that Izzard is 'noble' in the first place. His objective is a good one, but the means which he uses is not.

He's willing to sacrifice people to get what he wants... Aisa and the students of the cram school were all stepping stones for him.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tshengchao View Post
P2) If you keep correcting me and say I'm wrong, do you think that I would just shut up and submit to your will? lol
If that could happen, you would think I'll try harder to speed up the process... I could alway use more acolytes to do my bidding...

Mah~ it's just so happens that with most things that you say, I just happen to find flaws within them. Nothing completely personal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tshengchao View Post
1)I thought i typed somewhere before that I was WTF-ing at his response? Then u jumped up with your explanations? and I agreed and finally realised his reasons? Though I still won't like him with his petty nature.
Yes you did, I'm just recapping.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tshengchao View Post
2)If I agreed with you. Then ITS SET? You are not such a control freak that I must accomodate to all your whims right?
Well... Isn't it? If we both agree, then what's the problem ?

There there, you're starting to sound like a sore-loser.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tshengchao View Post
3)Yup. You're saying that you'll laugh it off. I cannot. Thats why I was opposing you all the way?
If it's not, this is your chance to prove it.
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Old 2008-12-02, 07:14   Link #96
tshengchao
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Quote:
Well... Isn't it? If we both agree, then what's the problem ?
Quote:
2. Why Izzard didn't use Ars Magna to save Index. Which we later settled on an agreement, but you certainly did give alot of weird reasons that would never have worked
The problem is that I didnt give any opinion that would qualify as 'weird reasons that would never have worked'?

Quote:
New error buddy.
Error for not, my feelings of let down doesn't change does it?
Truth is I can say whatever I want to say about how am I feeling/what do I feel about something and you would have nothing over my fact?
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Old 2008-12-02, 07:16   Link #97
BetoJR
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Could you two take it to PM? You kinda got the whole thread hijacked and into off-topic mode, now...
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Old 2008-12-02, 07:17   Link #98
Neki Ecko
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I have a chance to look at it and I think it is a decent episode 10/10 for me but there is one thing I feel bad about. I think Touma's House is going to be very crowded with Index, Aisa , and the cat plus a Maid equals alot of trouble and alot of cooking from Touma.

One more thing, I want to tell yall that Touma isnt a lolicon okay, Index could got a body like a flat-body surfboard but she is only about couple of years different between her and Touma.
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Old 2008-12-02, 07:24   Link #99
tshengchao
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Hey! So I can happily say that the characters are illogical and without citing examples you would have nothing over me. And even if I cited any (like I stupidly did previously), and even after you shot down my examples, I would still feel that they are illogical right? You probably cannot convince me otherwise as well. So you can only say:
Quote:
I can't stand people, in general, that just writes things off as illogical without thinking about possibilities.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
...Is what I wanted to write since you are only attacking on the evidences I gave to support why and what my feelings felt. So if anyone really were to say anything of how they felt about this, you prolly shouldn't answer as well.
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Old 2008-12-02, 07:35   Link #100
ayu
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I would say that I understand Izzard's actions, I admit to having a personality similar to his. Basically Kamijou and Stiyl were messing with him using words, he wasn't quite happy about that.
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