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Old 2010-12-13, 18:04   Link #2321
Janifuu
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Originally Posted by Shikijin View Post
I think I have understood what was the point behind Togame's cross-eye. The eye that gets crossed is the left one. The left side of the body is controlled by the right hemisphere of the brain. The right side of the body is controlled by the left hemisphere of the brain. The left hemisphere of the brain, as popularly understood, is connected to logic. The right hemisphere of the brain, instead, is connected to... emotions.

The day Togame first got the cross-eye was when Shichika's father killed her father. That day, Togame lost all emotions.

Eventually, she was able to recover back to some sort of normality, but the damage couldn't be undone. Togame is able to switch on and off her emotions at will. I can't remember every frame in which there was the cross-eye, but I think she did it every time she need to focus on her logical side; possibly when she was greedy or when she was lying; in the last episode it was because she was deadly serious. That was the point of her VA reading the lines in monotone. Togame wasn't feeling anything (excluding, that is, the pain of the bullet wounds).

I think Togame's last words have been misunderstood. It's not exactly like she admitted her love to Shichika; that would be discarding all the things she has said up to that moment. What she said was "You are the enemy of my father and I am going to kill you no matter what. It is against your best interest to stay by my side. Still, the fact you heard all this and still love me, honestly, it made me happy". What Togame did was admitting that if things went another way, she would have loved Shichika. This is the best she could say. Togame was regretting there could be no love story between her and Shichika. She had never truely loved him. She just deeply wanted to. She still wished to be loved by Shichika. However, as it is, their love is impossible.
I have to disagree with most of what you've stated. While there's definitely two sides to Togame's character, to say that she's really loved Shichika is a huge stretch and is untrue. She did in fact acknowledge her love for him during her final words, she just also wanted to elaborate on what her initial feelings/intentions at the beginning of their journey were, and that over time she had began to see and feel things differently. Before she knew it, her feelings for him did come into fruition, and really it didn't take much time at all for us to see that. What she was essentially saying was "I didn't mean to fall in love with you at first, but it turns out that I did. A part of me didn't want that, but the other part couldn't help it and wanted to keep loving you." Those feelings reigned dominant over her "initial" intentions, and its shown to be quite evident throughout the story. I don't think she really regretted much if anything, be it her quest to collect the swords, or her love for Shichika. She was happy, she had fun, and above all, she allowed herself to fall for Shichika, just as she herself stated. Shichika knew that very well. The love between them had always been mutual, and I really don't think it will ever change, even despite Togame's death.
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Old 2010-12-13, 18:08   Link #2322
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by Janifuu View Post
What "unexpected pairing"? If you are referring to Shichika and Hiteihime, then no, they did not become official in the end, as there was not a single thing to indicate that it would potentially happen.
Not a single thing? Let's not exaggerate. They're traveling together, and Shichika even agreed to form some kind of partnership - Hitei handles the finances (and probably most of the thinking), he handles the ass-kicking.
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Old 2010-12-13, 18:12   Link #2323
Kleeyook
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Well, what an unexpected ending. I didn't see that coming. And I never know that Shichika would be that badass.
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Old 2010-12-13, 18:42   Link #2324
Janifuu
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Not a single thing? Let's not exaggerate. They're traveling together, and Shichika even agreed to form some kind of partnership - Hitei handles the finances (and probably most of the thinking), he handles the ass-kicking.
How is that an exaggeration? You forget that Shichika had initially rejected Hiteihime from accompanying him, but Hiteihime seemed insistent and Shichika then just abides with it. Simply because Hiteihime is allowed to join Shichika on his map journey and those "roles" became established doesn't mean anything "romantic" is going to evolve from it. Any possibility of it is hypothetical and is derived purely from speculation of the viewer, seeing as we have no definite way of knowing what happens beyond that point. In canon there is nothing to indicate any potential "romance" happening between them. They each have their own "important" people already anyway, even despite that they've died.
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Old 2010-12-13, 18:47   Link #2325
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by Janifuu View Post
How is that an exaggeration? You forget that Shichika had initially rejected Hiteihime from accompanying him, but Hiteihime seemed insistent and Shichika then just abides with it. Simply because Hiteihime is allowed to join Shichika on his map journey and those "roles" became established doesn't mean anything "romantic" is going to evolve from it. Any possibility of it is hypothetical and is derived purely from speculation of the viewer. In canon there is nothing to indicate it. They each have their own "important" people already, even despite that they've died.
It's an exaggeration to say "there isn't a single thing indicating it would potentially happen". No, it hasn't happened yet by the time the series ends. It may never happen. But the potential's there. At the very least, there are "indications" it's there. Live with it.
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Old 2010-12-13, 19:18   Link #2326
Janifuu
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
It's an exaggeration to say "there isn't a single thing indicating it would potentially happen". No, it hasn't happened yet by the time the series ends. It may never happen. But the potential's there. At the very least, there are "indications" it's there. Live with it.
I still have to respectfully disagree, as I personally see nothing to indicate even the possibility of such a potential. To each their own though, I suppose.
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Old 2010-12-13, 19:21   Link #2327
sayde
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
It's an exaggeration to say "there isn't a single thing indicating it would potentially happen". No, it hasn't happened yet by the time the series ends. It may never happen. But the potential's there. At the very least, there are "indications" it's there. Live with it.
^^This. IMO, it's entirely up to the viewer to decide and/or predict the outcome with regards to that pairing. The narrators statements throughout the last minute and half pretty much grants the viewer complete and total freedom to assume whatever they'd like to about how the remainder of Yasuri Shichika's life unfolds (and whether or not it includes Hiteihime for that matter). Just the mere fact that the series ends with her by his side suggests such a pairing as one definite possibility among countless others.

Personally, I think it could easily go either way. They're both pretty young afterall. Besides, people lose loved ones all the time. It doesn't stop them from eventually finding someone else to love. It's also not uncommon for people to eventually develop feelings for those they initially feel nothing towards. So if it only took Shichika a year to develop feelings for Togame, who's to say he couldn't eventually come to love Hiteihime (albeit for different reasons) assuming he continues to journey with her and protect her over a prolonged period of time? On the other hand, I suppose it's just as likely that Shichika never develops feelings for her, or they go their separate ways, or they both die in a ditch 10 minutes into the course of their new journey.

Last edited by sayde; 2010-12-13 at 19:32.
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Old 2010-12-13, 21:01   Link #2328
takodori
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The word Koma(駒) Togame repeats in Ep.12

During the dialogue between Togame and Shichika in Ep.12, Togame uses the word koma(駒) many times. As a Japanese, I associate it with a shogi(Japanese chess) piece instantly, especially remembering ep.9 where they visited Tendo and Togame played shogi games against Zanki. Shogi pieces are often used as the metaphor of sacrifice for someone or loyal subordinates without being allowed to have their own will in Japanese language. So I think it's skillful that someone translated it into a "pawn" (on the board) which at least makes you think of a Western chess piece.
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Old 2010-12-13, 21:18   Link #2329
Vexx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by takodori View Post
During the dialogue between Togame and Shichika in Ep.12, Togame uses the word koma(駒) many times. As a Japanese, I associate it with a shogi(Japanese chess) piece instantly, especially remembering ep.9 where they visited Tendo and Togame played shogi games against Zanki. Shogi pieces are often used as the metaphor of sacrifice for someone or loyal subordinates without being allowed to have their own will in Japanese language. So I think it's skillful that someone translated it into a "pawn" (on the board) which at least makes you think of a Western chess piece.
Ah, I learned to play Shogi about a year ago but didn't catch that bit.... thanks for the insight.
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Old 2010-12-13, 22:22   Link #2330
Aquillion
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Originally Posted by Cyklops View Post
Remember in Episode 10, Hiteihime asks Emon to go find out why Shichika flinched when she mentioned the location of the 10th sword that was in the possession of that God-man? What was the reason he flinched?
Because Shichika knew that Togame was really Princess Yousha (or at least he knew enough of the story to realize that that location was important to her in a painful way.) Because of that flinch, Emon is ordered to follow them, and ends up discovering the truth -- if you look very, very carefully in the next episode, you can see Emon present for about ten frames when they're discussing that part of her background.

That's how he found out who she really was and, in turn, why he had to kill her, since it made it obvious that her plan was to seek bloody revenge for her father.

(Although, uh, why did they kill her? We know the Shogun didn't order it, because he didn't even know she was dead. And Princess Hitei had no reason to order Emon to kill her, since they both had the same goal -- killing the Shogun and destroying the Shogunate.)

Also, am I the only person who loved Saraba Kousha, the little girl (or was it a boy?) 'wielding' Seitou Hakari? "This thing is kind of useless..." Amusingly, it seems like she's the only one who survived, assuming she wasn't killed when the palace was punched in half.

Last edited by Aquillion; 2010-12-13 at 22:43.
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Old 2010-12-13, 23:06   Link #2331
AHH
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Originally Posted by Aquillion View Post
(Although, uh, why did they kill her? We know the Shogun didn't order it, because he didn't even know she was dead. And Princess Hitei had no reason to order Emon to kill her, since they both had the same goal -- killing the Shogun and destroying the Shogunate.)

Also, am I the only person who loved Saraba Kousha, the little girl (or was it a boy?) 'wielding' Seitou Hakari? "This thing is kind of useless..." Amusingly, it seems like she's the only one who survived, assuming she wasn't killed when the palace was punched in half.
Yeah, that issue has been bugging me since I watched 12. The Shogun should have known about it in any case, but he was completely clueless.

And you're not alone. That whole scene with her was just so silly.
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Old 2010-12-14, 00:19   Link #2332
Aquillion
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Also, I was a bit disappointed that the Dokutou Meki wielder got killed so fast. I expected at least a few more lines with Shikizaki Kiki, since the whole show ultimately revolved around his plans.
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Old 2010-12-14, 00:54   Link #2333
Aquillion
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Originally Posted by Daniel Lind View Post
I also loved how Shichika just walks around Japan freely after killing the Shogun. *sarcasm*
Dude punched a castle in half. Let me repeat that: He killed a thousand or so warriors singlehandedly, beat every other Perfected Deviant Blade in a gauntlet rush, and then punched a castle in half barehanded.

Doesn't matter who he killed, I don't think there's a bounty large enough in all of Japan to get anyone to go after him.
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Old 2010-12-14, 01:52   Link #2334
sayde
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Originally Posted by Aquillion View Post
I don't think there's a bounty large enough in all of Japan to get anyone to go after him.
*agrees*
In fact, I'd argue that Shichika proved so incredibly skillful and powerful that it almost seems like there'd be relatively no difference between the amount of energy he'd have to exert to walk around Japan freely, or walk around Japan fending off hundreds of guys on a daily basis in the process. He seems THAT strong. And with him having destroyed the only gun in his time, he effectively eliminated the only weapon that posed any real threat to him.

On another note, I think the only battle that didn't make much sense to me was the defeat of Akutou Bita. I think the exact words Shichika used was
Quote:
just because you don't die if I kill you, it doesn't mean you can't die if I keep killing you.
Then he proceeds to kill him 272 times.
The thing is, if Akutou Bita prevents one from dying, then it should be impossible for Shichika to have killed Uron once, much less 272 times. I feel like there's something (really simple) to this logic I can't seem to stop overlooking. The fight would've made more sense to me if Akutou Bita had simply been pulled from out of his chest before Uron was defeated.
*edit*
Things make more sense when I stop thinking about these swords as supernatural entities and instead look at them from a more scientific point of view as
shichi-chan did here.
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Old 2010-12-14, 02:36   Link #2335
Kunagisa
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Originally Posted by omimon View Post
I'm pretty a majority of people's fav was Nanami too. Damn it, why are batshit insane girls so appealing.
Not using spoilers since most people here will never read the extra BR scripts anyway and these aren't confirmed.

Rumor has it that Shichika's mom is a guro-con. Whenever there are deaths and stuff she would be the first to the scene. She was also extremely beautiful (lol), but when men proposed to her, she would asked 'em to let them see their insides (organs and intestines), Shichika's dad was the only one who instantly cut open his own stomach (what?) during his proposal and she married him then. Apparently, Togame's dad also sent a Maniwa ninja after her, and she bit a chunk of flesh off him or something.

This sounds 100% more interesting than Nanami lol.

Speaking of which, I would KILL for some BR scripts on these stuff <__<, cause apparently Shichika's dad had like 6 personalities or something.
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Old 2010-12-14, 02:51   Link #2336
Kakkou
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Originally Posted by stuopidget View Post
Not using spoilers since most people here will never read the extra BR scripts anyway and these aren't confirmed.

Rumor has it that Shichika's mom is a guro-con. Whenever there are deaths and stuff she would be the first to the scene. She was also extremely beautiful (lol), but when men proposed to her, she would asked 'em to let them see their insides (organs and intestines), Shichika's dad was the only one who instantly cut open his own stomach (what?) during his proposal and she married him then. Apparently, Togame's dad also sent a Maniwa ninja after her, and she bit a chunk of flesh off him or something.

This sounds 100% more interesting than Nanami lol.

Speaking of which, I would KILL for some BR scripts on these stuff <__<, cause apparently Shichika's dad had like 6 personalities or something.
Reminds me of that one unsettling line in ef melodies' OP which went "I wish I could see your insides" . Typical of Nisio. His characters are either never right in the head in one way or another or just downright insane . No wonder Nanami turned out the way she was, with a mother like that and a father with supposedly multiple personality disorder.
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Old 2010-12-14, 04:37   Link #2337
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Ok, question. Emonzaemon stated several times that he is not a great fighter. He always turned to his guns in order to defeat the Maniwani, seeing they were more skilled than him. Yet in the final episode he lasts an entire minute of exchanging blows with Shichika and even managed to do permenant scars on him. How the heck did he found the power to fight so well when all others before him dropped at seconds?
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Old 2010-12-14, 05:37   Link #2338
Kanon
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Originally Posted by stuopidget View Post
Not using spoilers since most people here will never read the extra BR scripts anyway and these aren't confirmed.

Rumor has it that Shichika's mom is a guro-con. Whenever there are deaths and stuff she would be the first to the scene. She was also extremely beautiful (lol), but when men proposed to her, she would asked 'em to let them see their insides (organs and intestines), Shichika's dad was the only one who instantly cut open his own stomach (what?) during his proposal and she married him then. Apparently, Togame's dad also sent a Maniwa ninja after her, and she bit a chunk of flesh off him or something.

This sounds 100% more interesting than Nanami lol.

Speaking of which, I would KILL for some BR scripts on these stuff <__<, cause apparently Shichika's dad had like 6 personalities or something.
Wow, that's certainly interesting

Not all that appealing to me though, so Nanami shall remain my favorite.
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Old 2010-12-14, 06:20   Link #2339
omimon
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Originally Posted by roriconfan View Post
Ok, question. Emonzaemon stated several times that he is not a great fighter. He always turned to his guns in order to defeat the Maniwani, seeing they were more skilled than him. Yet in the final episode he lasts an entire minute of exchanging blows with Shichika and even managed to do permenant scars on him. How the heck did he found the power to fight so well when all others before him dropped at seconds?
He was just being modest.
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Old 2010-12-14, 06:22   Link #2340
sayde
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Originally Posted by roriconfan View Post
Ok, question. Emonzaemon stated several times that he is not a great fighter.
In all fairness, I think Emonzaemon might've been just little modest about his skills.

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Originally Posted by roriconfan View Post
He always turned to his guns in order to defeat the Maniwani, seeing they were more skilled than him.
Not always. It's true he did against Oshidori and Pengin, but he at least fought pretty evenly in a fair match without his guns against the leader (and even looked like he was about to gain the advantage) before pengin made the mistake of throwing Dokutou Mekki into the match.

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Originally Posted by roriconfan View Post
Yet in the final episode he lasts an entire minute of exchanging blows with Shichika and even managed to do permenant scars on him. How the heck did he found the power to fight so well when all others before him dropped at seconds?
I try to consider the following factors into their fight.
-The 12th deviant blade Jyuu was a very powerful weapon on it's own. (arguably one of the strongest in the entire set if you don't count Shichika himself.)
-It was also the only remaining deviant blade Shichika had to face-off against that
1.) he didn't have much former experience fighting against
2.) was still being wielded by someone who was worthy of using it in the first place

So the first part of their fight felt pretty plausible to me. It's easy to see why Shichika incurred the injuries he did. This leaves the final part of the fight. And while it does seem rather unbelievable for Emonzaemon to be able to keep up with Shichika in a fast flurry exchange of blows, we have to keep in mind that Emonzaemon was in perfect condition towards the end of their fight while Shichika sustained at least 8 gunshot wounds to his body. So it's nothing short of amazing for Shichika to be standing at all, much less showing no expressions of pain or fatigue. But despite that, I think it might be safe to assume the punishment he took may have still weakened him to the point of making his body move more sluggish than usual. In other words, those wounds may have leveled the playing field in Emonzaemons favor.

To sum it up, I feel it was Entou Jyuu that paved the way for Emonzaemon to fight on par with Shichika towards the end of the battle.
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