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View Poll Results: Mobile Suit Gundam 00 Second Season - Episode 9 Rating
Perfect 10 97 61.78%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 28 17.83%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 21 13.38%
7 out of 10 : Good 8 5.10%
6 out of 10 : Average 1 0.64%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 2 1.27%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 0 0%
Voters: 157. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2008-12-06, 03:59   Link #461
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Originally Posted by The Small One View Post
Just that Ali has no idea of the difference between the Tau and the True drives and he doesn't know, that the 00 is the superiour suit.
If 00 IS a superior suit, Ali should be able to tell just from observation. A better MS is a better MS, even if the pilot wasn't able to achieve its full potential.
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Old 2008-12-06, 04:00   Link #462
NoOneKnowS
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I can't remeber how did Ali knew about Lockon having an injured eye back when they fought? Oh well, his trone is ugly, it's badass though.
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Old 2008-12-06, 04:06   Link #463
LoweGear
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He deduced that from Lockon's movements when Daryl went to the right side of the Dynames.
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Old 2008-12-06, 05:07   Link #464
lakz
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Hey "wtf" I really don't want to argue with you but seriously. You're making an argument out of nothing. You say that they're independent within their jurisdiction? Dude, they're jurisdiction is everything and anything. Please man, it's okay to just drop it and admit that you weren't necesearilly wrong, but incorrect.
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Old 2008-12-06, 10:11   Link #465
wtfftw
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lakz View Post
Hey "wtf" I really don't want to argue with you but seriously. You're making an argument out of nothing. You say that they're independent within their jurisdiction? Dude, they're jurisdiction is everything and anything. Please man, it's okay to just drop it and admit that you weren't necesearilly wrong, but incorrect.
I loled take your own advise and just stop dont begin something you cant win.

Taken from wiki
A-Laws (アロウズ, Arōzu?) or the Autonomous Peace-Keeping Force is the main antagonistic organization of the series' second season and an independent secret police of the Earth Sphere Federation's military, having splintered off the main army and answering only to the government. Officially, their mission is to further unify nations, but their ideals and tactics are a facade of oppression, brutal at that.

I guess what i been saying all along does seem the case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nyxone
Of course they matter- and Ali has shown himself time and time again to be a good pilot. The thing is, he has the upper hand because of his ruthlessness simply because of how fierce he is, and also because Graham, quite unlike Ali, now fights by a strict code of honor- and Ali isn't the most honorable fellow around.
I guess you haven't grasped what i said so ill elaborate it more. Going by your logic any pilot thats is good hearted could never be a better pilot then someone that is ruthless i think that's a wring statement/assumption. Basically because Ali and graham are 2 opposite characters.

Ali's Personality, not his piloting skills, can be seen a ruthless person and is still better then other pilots.

Graham is a man of code of honour and when thinking about honor and respect he is pretty much the complete opposite of Ali and isn't RUTHLESS. But is still better then 1000 psycho maniac killers who he can own hands down.

Now guess what these 2 are the best of what earth probably has to offer yet they are completely different as persons yet still are the top of the line pilot so obviously ruthless is not a determining factor for looking who is the better pilot. This is mostly a secondary issue when 2 pilots have the same skills. Then they look at psychology to see who would do better in dire circumstances

note that armies do not judge their men by the personal attributes or feelings they have but rather the skill. Off course before you even join you need to go through a psych evaluation. Guess what the US army isn't going to go the US prisons and enlist all T-BAGS, mafioso, because they are ruthless?

You know what matters for a pilot.

Intelligence, adaptability, having no fear in battle etc These influence how you fly!

talking about fear i think you guys might have not sure applied ali's not being scared for battle as fearless maybe i dunno?
[QUOTE]It doesn't. Ruthless equals to strategy. Graham spared Setsuna and 00 Gundam. Ali wouldn't have, because he's ruthless. He's not stupid and he wouldn't leave an enemy to get in his way again if they were already down. Graham has honor. Ali doesn't. He's not above using tricks to win, while Graham is. Graham would lose against Ali.[/QUOTE=Rising Dragon]no offcourse not Rising Dragon pilotting skills do not matter with piloting a suit. (i loled so hard on this)

Anyway killing or not killing in the case of these named characters or seeing a threat in the future has nothing to do with being a better pilot. Ali has not killed Tiera or Setsuna however we are still able to determine that Ali is better simply because he outmaneuvered them on every area. Ali could adapt on Tiera's trap with the hidden sword. This shows that Ali (even though he is talking alot of shit while fighting) is focusing and reacts faster (also reacts correctly) then Setsuna and Tiera together. Coupled by the fact that Setsuna and Tiera are not able to counter Ali's stuff. This makes him for me a better pilot for me.

This fight did not show anything that can be seen as ruthless simply because war/fighting on itself is somewhat brutal/ruthless and he didnt cross lines that can be seen as honorable. It was just a fight between mechs. Thats it. Now setting kids up to do geuarilla war is really ruthless i just dont see how that related to be being a better pilot

Anyway for me the bottom line is even though Ali is ruthless as a person he is smart, cunning, has a great reflex when it comes to piloting, experience which puts him above other Ruthless is just how he is. I mean if some 6 year chick get a mecha and owns Ali we gonna cal her more ruthless cuz she owned ali?
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Old 2008-12-06, 10:19   Link #466
NyxOne
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And you clearly didn't grasp what I said and also obviously don't know the definition of ruthless, but I won't bother retorting.
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Old 2008-12-06, 10:32   Link #467
wtfftw
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NyxOne View Post
And you clearly didn't grasp what I said and also obviously don't know the definition of ruthless, but I won't bother retorting.
Dude, I know what you said

So tell which of these

Having no compassion or pity; merciless, feeling or showing no mercy, adjective merciless, hard, severe, fierce, harsh, cruel, savage, brutal, stern, relentless, adamant, ferocious, callous, heartless, unrelenting, inhuman, inexorable, remorseless, barbarous, pitiless, unfeeling, hard-hearted, without pity, unmerciful, unpitying, without pity a ruthless attack; a ruthless tyrant

relates to piloting in the sense that a pilot who has alot of it will be a better pilot the others cuz they more ruthless?

so what does your 1 liner show that you cant translate any of these into piloting skills

If instead changed your view earlier and said i believe ruthless gives him somewhat of an edge over the others ok fine. however because he is damn ruthless does not perse make him better then graham.

Last edited by wtfftw; 2008-12-06 at 21:32.
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Old 2008-12-06, 10:55   Link #468
NyxOne
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Okay, Ali fits the bill in almost any one of those descriptions.

And...yes. It does make him better than Graham for one reason- Graham has chosen to abide and fight by a strict code of honor. If he didn't, he would have run his Ahead's beam saber through the downed 00 a couple of episodes ago. But he didn't. Ali, on the other hand, as well as his skills, which I did address, does not fight with that honorable air. Sure, Ali may fight Graham's fight for the lulz, but he has the upper hand because he fights like a rabid dog, whereas Graham fights nobly- and that doesn't really work against Ali or those like him.
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Old 2008-12-06, 11:01   Link #469
mechabao
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wtfftw View Post
Dude, I know what you said

So tell which of these

Having no compassion or pity; merciless, feeling or showing no mercy, adjective merciless, hard, severe, fierce, harsh, cruel, savage, brutal, stern, relentless, adamant, ferocious, callous, heartless, unrelenting, inhuman, inexorable, remorseless, barbarous, pitiless, unfeeling, hard-hearted, without pity, unmerciful, unpitying, without pity a ruthless attack; a ruthless tyrant

relates to piloting in the sense that a pilot who has alot of it will be a better pilot the others cuz they more ruthless?

so what does your 1 liner show that you cant translate any of these into piloting skills

If instead you changed your view earlier and said i believe ruthless gives him somewhat of an edge over the others ok fine. however because he is damn ruthless does not make him better then graham.
The Dicta Boelcke

1.Try to secure the upper hand before attacking. If possible, keep the sun behind you.
2.Always continue with an attack you have begun.
3.Only fire at close range, and then only when the opponent is properly in your sights.
4.You should always try to keep your eye on your opponent, and never let yourself be deceived by ruses.
5.In any type of attack, it is essential to assail your opponent from behind.
6.If your opponent dives on you, do not try to get around his attack, but fly to meet it.
7.When over the enemy's lines, never forget your own line of retreat
8.Tip for Squadrons: In principle, it is better to attack in groups of four or six. Avoid two aircraft attacking the same opponent


Ten Rules for Air Fighting

1. Wait until you see the whites of his eyes. Fire short bursts of 1 to 2 seconds and only when your sights are definitely 'ON'.
2. Whilst shooting think of nothing else, brace the whole of the body, have both hands on the stick, concentrate on your ring sight.
3. Always keep a sharp lookout. "Keep your finger out!"
4. Height gives You the initiative.
5. Always turn and face the attack.
6. Make your decisions promptly. It is better to act quickly even though your tactics are not the best.
7. Never fly straight and level for more than 30 seconds in the combat area.
8. When diving to attack always leave a proportion of your formation above to act as top guard.
9. INITIATIVE, AGGRESSION, AIR DISCIPLINE, and TEAM WORK are the words that MEAN something in Air Fighting.
10. Go in quickly - Punch hard - Get out!
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Old 2008-12-06, 11:31   Link #470
wtfftw
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mechabao View Post
The Dicta Boelcke

1.Try to secure the upper hand before attacking. If possible, keep the sun behind you.
2.Always continue with an attack you have begun.
3.Only fire at close range, and then only when the opponent is properly in your sights.
4.You should always try to keep your eye on your opponent, and never let yourself be deceived by ruses.
5.In any type of attack, it is essential to assail your opponent from behind.
6.If your opponent dives on you, do not try to get around his attack, but fly to meet it.
7.When over the enemy's lines, never forget your own line of retreat
8.Tip for Squadrons: In principle, it is better to attack in groups of four or six. Avoid two aircraft attacking the same opponent


Ten Rules for Air Fighting

1. Wait until you see the whites of his eyes. Fire short bursts of 1 to 2 seconds and only when your sights are definitely 'ON'.
2. Whilst shooting think of nothing else, brace the whole of the body, have both hands on the stick, concentrate on your ring sight.
3. Always keep a sharp lookout. "Keep your finger out!"
4. Height gives You the initiative.
5. Always turn and face the attack.
6. Make your decisions promptly. It is better to act quickly even though your tactics are not the best.
7. Never fly straight and level for more than 30 seconds in the combat area.
8. When diving to attack always leave a proportion of your formation above to act as top guard.
9. INITIATIVE, AGGRESSION, AIR DISCIPLINE, and TEAM WORK are the words that MEAN something in Air Fighting.
10. Go in quickly - Punch hard - Get out!
Yeah nice strategy/tactics for air fighting i was trying to find just something like this to add even more good arguments thnx for giving it to me freely though^^. your a great dude.

Header says "Ten Rules for Air Fighting", list of tactics

So ali has rules/tactics now or wasnt he supposed to be the ruthless dude on the battlefield.

Like i said i believe being a better pilot has to do with Intelligence, using knowledge, adaptability translates to flying rules(you set up for yourself or are told)/ tactics. Ali has his own tactics however thats not because he is ruthless. Thats war on itself but because he is smart and know how the game is played and has experience.

Any of these points apply to all good pilots that fight an opponent even Setsuna. If this was supposed to be a counter argument (LOL) then this would thus mean all pilots in G00 are all "RUTHLESS" like Ali.

Thus also enforces what i said earlier stated, "in a sense war on itself IS ruthless".

These have nothing to do with being ruthless (as a person, as character attribute). War it self is aggressive. But have to do with what is the best way to kill an enemy. Now all pilots in G00 who go out kill enemies. This entire Post of yours would best apply to Saji when he was told to shoot since he didnt understand any of these points. Its just a guidelines on how to own enemies.

nothing more nothing less. If your statement was war is ruthless then yeah i agree thats why there stuff like

"Wait until you see the whites of his eyes. Fire short bursts of 1 to 2 seconds and only when your sights are definitely 'ON'." "Go in quickly - Punch hard - Get out!"

I mean shit almost all named characters have killed soldiers. Yeah thats ruthless THAT SO RELATED to describe Ali's a better pilot I can so deduce that from this man?

Thing is Ali, graham, tiera, setsuna all do these. However that being ruthless attacking someone were it hurts in a sense does not make them a better pilot. Some grunts have been hitting CB where it hurt hard yet the grunts were not better pilots.

You "bold" aggression yet dont bold team work, air Discipline. If you apply for the Air force they is not gonna take in if you are "ruthless". In fact you would get court martial for being ruthless. If someone who was even more ruthless then ali, such a person would for example stab through own ally's just to take down an enemy, Now thats ruthless thats like being a berserker who lost his sense. For me that doenst make him a better pilot just that he is insane.

in fact Ali is perfectly sane just that he doenst give a fuck or has remorse for what he does.
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Old 2008-12-06, 11:58   Link #471
NyxOne
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Again, you're misunderstanding ruthlessness.
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Old 2008-12-06, 12:04   Link #472
mechabao
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wtfftw View Post
Yeah nice strategy/tactics for air fighting i was trying to find just something like this to add even more good arguments thnx for giving it to me freely though^^. your a great dude.

Header says "Ten Rules for Air Fighting", list of tactics

So ali has rules/tactics now or wasnt he supposed to be the ruthless dude on the battlefield.

Like i said i believe being a better pilot has to do with Intelligence using Intelligence, adaptability translates to flying rules(you set up for yourself or are told)/ tactics. Ali has his own tactics however thats not because he is ruthless. Thats war on itself but because he is smart and know how the game is played and has experience.

Any of these points apply to all good pilots that fight an opponent even Setsuna. If this was supposed to be a counter argument(lol) then this would thus mean all pilots in G00 are all "RUTHLESS" like Ali.

Thus also enforces what i said earlier stated, "in a sense war on itself IS ruthless".

These have nothing to do with being ruthless as a person(i mean attribute). War it self is aggressive. But have to do with what is the best way to kill an enemy. Now all pilots in G00 who go out kill enemies. This entire Post of yours would best apply to Saji when he was told to shoot since he didnt understand any of these points. Its just a guidelines on how to own enemies.

nothing more nothing less. If your statement was War is ruthless then yeah i agree thats why there stuff like

"Wait until you see the whites of his eyes. Fire short bursts of 1 to 2 seconds and only when your sights are definitely 'ON'." "Go in quickly - Punch hard - Get out!"

I mean shit almost all named characters have killed soldiers. Yeah thats ruthless THAT SO RELATED to describe Ali's a better pilot I can so deduce that from this man?

Thing is Ali, graham, tiera, setsuna all do these. However that being ruthless attacking someone were it hurts in a sense does not make them a better pilot. Some grunts have been hitting CB where it hurt hard yet the grunts were not better pilots.
First of all, just because he's ruthless in every sense of the word doesn't mean that he does not employ tactics or strategy on the battlefield. Otherwise he'd have been killed long before the first season even started. All it means is that he doesn't care about how he defeats his opponents, and as a result he will not shy away from using underhanded tactics in order to do so. It also helps that he naturally takes the 2nd rule of the Dicta Boelcke and the 9th and 10th rules of Air Fighting to their extremes whenever he fights.

For example, during his fight with Tieria and Setsuna, he followed nearly all of the rules of the Dicta Boelcke and the 10 Rules of Air Fighting(except for the 8th rule of both) particularly the rules which state that one should be ruthless and relentless when on the attack, which is why he almost brought both Meisters down until the rest of CB came to their rescue.

I just had to laugh when you called the Meisters "good pilots". So far they have shown little common sense or piloting skill on the battlefield. Always letting their emotions get in the way of their common sense and showing an overwhelming dependence on their magical Jesus-like GN drives and TRANS-AM. If any character or group of characters in this series is guilty of violating nearly every rule of warfare be it air or ground, it's them.

Last edited by mechabao; 2008-12-06 at 13:55. Reason: because I suck at explaining stuff clearly the first time around.
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Old 2008-12-06, 12:08   Link #473
hero147
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I think NyxOne is referring to the fact that Ali will win a fight against Graham because he's ruthless. It's a concept that's pretty easy to understand.

Say we have 2 martial arts fighters, with the same skill, power, mobility etc....However, one is honourable while the other is ruthless. Being ruthless gives him no sense of honour or pride, and enables him to do "cheap shots" and "tricks" that will enable his victory. What does he do? He kicks the groin of the honourable opponent, the honourable opponent falls.

Even though Graham wouldn't lose to just any ruthless opponent, he will lose to someone who is near his piloting skills if they are ruthless. The probability of blocking a "cheap blow" significantly lessens every time the opponent is stronger and faster and able to performs tricks and cheap shots more effectively.

Last edited by hero147; 2008-12-06 at 16:26.
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Old 2008-12-06, 12:23   Link #474
mechabao
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hero147 View Post
I think NyxOne is referring to the fact that Ali will win a fight against Graham because he's ruthless. It's a concept that's pretty easy to understand.

Say we have 2 martial arts fighters, with the same skill, power, mobility etc....However, one is honourable while the other is ruthless. Being ruthless gives him no sense of honour or pride, and enables him to do "cheap shots" and "tricks" that will enable his victory. What does he do? He kicks the groin of the honourable opponent, the the honourable opponent falls.

Even though Graham wouldn't lose to just any ruthless opponent, he will lose to someone who is near his piloting skills if they are ruthless. The probability of blocking a "cheap blow" significantly lessens every time the opponent is stronger and faster and able to performs tricks and cheap shots more effectively.
To add to your post, once the honourable opponent is on the ground and rolling in pain, the ruthless combatant proceeds to kick the other one repeatedly until Mr. Honourable's unconscious or dead.
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Old 2008-12-06, 12:36   Link #475
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Huh,look like I'm learning Grammar today.This whole Ali vs Bushido/Graham won't happen period,unless the director of MSG 00 allow it.I speculate it would happen around ep 13-19,of course after Bushido test ride his new super cool ownage MS on Setsuna 00 o.

So it up to Ali rutlessness vs Bushido honourable heh.I would put it like this,
Ali trolling vs Bushido determination.If these two great pilot does indeed goes head to head,it would be a draw.Simple as that.Ali keep underestimated his opponent while Graham/Bushido respect his opponent.
Remember,Graham now take the Bushido persona,so he won't fight like he used to.He now fight with the samurai code of honor.
I would rather see Graham(not Bushido persona) fight Ali,that where their true superior skill be put to their limit.I think this is the time when the old Graham will resurfaced.

Just my insane thought.
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Old 2008-12-06, 14:32   Link #476
mechabao
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Originally Posted by RAVNEN View Post
Huh,look like I'm learning Grammar today.This whole Ali vs Bushido/Graham won't happen period,unless the director of MSG 00 allow it.I speculate it would happen around ep 13-19,of course after Bushido test ride his new super cool ownage MS on Setsuna 00 o.

So it up to Ali rutlessness vs Bushido honourable heh.I would put it like this,
Ali trolling vs Bushido determination.If these two great pilot does indeed goes head to head,it would be a draw.Simple as that.Ali keep underestimated his opponent while Graham/Bushido respect his opponent.
Remember,Graham now take the Bushido persona,so he won't fight like he used to.He now fight with the samurai code of honor.
I would rather see Graham(not Bushido persona) fight Ali,that where their true superior skill be put to their limit.I think this is the time when the old Graham will resurfaced.

Just my insane thought.
I don't think that Ali has ever truly underestimated anyone he's come up against. He tends to make sure that he has some sort of nasty surprise waiting for his opponent if they try to pull a fast one on him.

Judging by what happened in this episode, the only way Ali will end up crippled or dead is if his opponent/s holds a serious technological advantage (probable, with 0-Raizer and Trans-Am hax), is an Innovator (most likely), or if Ali himself makes a stupid mistake (unlikely).
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Old 2008-12-06, 17:46   Link #477
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I loled so hard at Nyxone post cuz it didnt say anything nor does he have any argument whatsoever.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mechabao View Post
First of all, just because he's ruthless in every sense of the word doesn't mean that he does not employ tactics or strategy on the battlefield. Otherwise he'd have been killed long before the first season even started. All it means is that he doesn't care about how he defeats his opponents, and as a result he will not shy away from using underhanded tactics in order to do so. It also helps that he naturally takes the 2nd rule of the Dicta Boelcke and the 9th and 10th rules of Air Fighting to their extremes whenever he fights.
I think you need to read better some others too cuz they is making the same mistakes. I said Ali is better at the attributes I believe to be important those include tactics IQ experience etc. So read again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wtfftw
Ali has his own tactics however thats not because he is ruthless. Thats war on itself but because he is smart and know how the game is played and has experience
so what the hell are you saying with

Quote:
First of all, just because he's ruthless in every sense of the word doesn't mean that he does not employ tactics or strategy on the battlefield.
I wanna have a discussion but i find it so lame if you cannot grasp what i said. or do the effort to understand another person before you post.

thats that

You infact enforce yourself that ruthlessness is not the factor to decide who is the better pilot but tactics, experience etc which i have been saying all along. see above

I also said war on itself is cruelty people get killed i mean kids like setsuna kill.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wtfftw
1) War it self is aggressive
2)But have to do with what is the best way to kill an enemy
3)If your statement was War is ruthless then yeah i agree
4)I mean shit almost all named characters have killed soldiers. Yeah thats ruthless THAT SO RELATED to describe Ali's a better pilot I can so deduce that from this man?
Now setsuna is not regarded ruthless at this point. Because he doesnt do underhanded attacks. The underlined part is the biggest bullcrap you can say when it comes to war.

NO one is gonna fight and LET themself get killed unless they want to. Every person dying dies because for him it was an underhanded move because they didnt expect or could react to such a move.

I said
Quote:
Thing is Ali, graham, tiera, setsuna all do these. However that being ruthless attacking someone were it hurts in a sense does not make them a better pilot. Some grunts have been hitting CB where it hurt hard yet the grunts were not better pilots
I even asked you, do you think they are ruthless. Then you would have to reply with yes or no. If you say no then your argument does not hold because setsuna kills people underhanded they attack unprovoked i geuss and they have killed some people. If you say yes then you mix ruthless up with experience Intelligence,skill, adaptability etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mechabao View Post
For example, during his fight with Tieria and Setsuna, he followed nearly all of the rules of the Dicta Boelcke and the 10 Rules of Air Fighting(except for the 8th rule of both) particularly the rules which state that one should be ruthless and relentless when on the attack, which is why he almost brought both Meisters down until the rest of CB came to their rescue.
This is so nonsense. Tiera nor setsuna do not hesitate or when attacking Ali. They can do it with psycho eyes too if you liked they still would not be better pilots then Ali.

Those rules/guidelines are for war. War is ruthless it does not say:

1) ask your enemy if you can attack
2) and then say where you going to hit
3) and then nicely cut him so he feels a painless death.

no what kind of bullshit is that. I have been trying to say that for the 3rd time now. That in that battle nothing is ruthless as how you relate it to Ali's character. They fight you either win or lose simple as that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mechabao View Post
I just had to laugh when you called the Meisters "good pilots". So far they have shown little common sense or piloting skill on the battlefield. Always letting their emotions get in the way of their common sense and showing an overwhelming dependence on their magical Jesus-like GN drives and TRANS-AM. If any character or group of characters in this series is guilty of violating nearly every rule of warfare be it air or ground, it's them.
thats your subjective opinion i dont care about whether or not you think they are god. They have owned armies thats more then enough for me. No they arent robots. I guess tha automations are the best pilots in G00 cuz they dont care who they shoot. Hell ali is all hyped up and happy when he fights so geuss he is a loser pilot too >.>. At least make some decent points man

To sum some things up 1 you should leave out parts you we agree on but do as if i havent said that while in fact i did. 2 read and understand what someone is trying to say before you make a reply. Better to make 1 liners like nyxone cuz then you dont mix things up. Thing is he knows he is wrong thats why he just leaves it at 1 lines

The problem you guys are having is that you think if these 2 fight it would be like an arena fight in which some judge decide when to stop they all know its war and they all know they can die. Nothing applies with like honorable fight what kind of bullcrap is that. Tell me what was an honourable fight? because graham let setsuna live. That did not show that graham was better or worse. it just shows his intentions. Graham was better because Setsuna had to go 00 Transam on him while graham was in a crap suit. Even if Graham shot him it would not matter if graham was better or not cuz graham owned him and caused him to go 00 whether he let him live or die.

Quote:
I think NyxOne is referring to the fact that Ali will win a fight against Graham because he's ruthless. It's a concept that's pretty easy to understand.
Thats an assumption thats plain bullshit. This has to do with nyxone thinking Ali would fight to kill whereas Graham wouldnt. You cant decide that, only the one who is fighting can say yes im going for the kill or not. Then its obvious who can suffer most from such a skirmish.

its like having EMO Shin vs Emo kira where Kira only disables people yet Shin doenst and wouldnt mind doing an underhanded move. you cant freaking deduce that ruthlessness would determine who would win or say its an even battle.

I can just as easily say i believe graham will win because he is honorable. It does not say anything about who would win. It just says how the person who pilots is.

SO what Graham and ali have a fight to the death. And then graham will hit the guy, Ali is death. Yet Ali was supposed to be ruthless yet could not kill lay a hand on graham how did ruthlessness help in fightiing graham? Winning is about who is the better pilot and the decisiveness to kill in the case of war.

Quote:
Say we have 2 martial arts fighters, with the same skill, power, mobility etc....However, one is honourable while the other is ruthless. Being ruthless gives him no sense of honour or pride, and enables him to do "cheap shots" and "tricks" that will enable his victory. What does he do? He kicks the groin of the honourable opponent, the honourable opponent falls.
For 1 it depends on what sport

2 is their a judge who will say dude you did a cheap shot you lost

3 its not war like in G00 so killing has no rules cheaps shots are just shots (said it like 1000 times already) people understand this simple dumb fact.

4 If they are equal skills/power/mobility cheap shot do not matter as the honourable guy will be able to block it.

In martial arts there are rules like you can not do this or it is not Karate anymore. Now in war there are no rules I have aid it billion times already. So all the bullcrap you say about ruthless is just nonsense. The VERY FACT its war is ruthless itself.

because Graham let setsuna live has nothing to do with Graham going all out on Ali. Why wouldn't he just kill Ali like all other grunts he killed fromkataron stop yeah the honourable it assumptions you have taken over that have no ground.

instead of saying all this honorable crap about graham go read or watch the dead people in war see how any of that can be seen as honorable. WAR is cruelty, violence ending people live.

All soldier can be regarded ruthless because they kill they dont pity who they kill they just kill because someone told them to or for whatever ever crap they can think of.

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Even though Graham wouldn't lose to just any ruthless opponent, he will lose to someone who is near his piloting skills if they are ruthless. The probability of blocking a "cheap blow" significantly lessens every time the opponent is stronger and faster and able to performs tricks and cheap shots more effectively.
this is just making assumptions without any valid or concrete proof.

You infact state WHAT DOES makes someone better and those are the bolded parts in your post. The reason why such a person (who is ruthless yet near the same lvl of an honourable person) would win is because apparentlt he is stronger and faster. Not because he does a cheap blow but because his cheap blow is faster then the honourable person can react.. Thats the defining difference in skill. He is faster in landing a cheap blow. Now when thinking about piloting This relates to being faster to adapt and react on enemy movements.

If objective is to kill(which is the case of war) then this ruthless is bullshit. This has more to do with neglectfulness in finishing off opponents. Which is the case now with graham when it comes to Setsuna. However Graham is still a better pilot. WHile in Season 1 the finale they went all out and pretty much stabbed each other as much as they could until their suits stopped working. ANd what do we see in S2 with graham he kills anyone who interferes with his fight with setsuna. If Ali would come Graham would just go all out and wouldnt mind killing him i geuss seeing how he slashed up kataron.

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To add to your post, once the honourable opponent is on the ground and rolling in pain, the ruthless combatant proceeds to kick the other one repeatedly until Mr. Honourable's unconscious or dead.
You miss a fundamental step in your reasoning and that is the fact that the honorable person is on the ground because the ruthless guy put him there not because the person was ruthless but because the ruthless person was a better pilot. Your in fact saying the shit i have been saying all along you just dont see or understand what is of importance. The honorable person would never be on the ground getting stabbed shot if he was a better pilot now would he?


I mean you guys mix things really up. How does putting azadistan in flames (being ruthless) relates to this recent fight being a good pilot is beyond me.

anyway ill check tomorrow what nice arguments you guys have come up with again.

Last edited by wtfftw; 2008-12-06 at 18:09.
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Old 2008-12-06, 18:07   Link #478
NyxOne
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I would comment on how your posts seep egotism from every pore and that they are heavily ignorant, but...oh, whoops.
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Old 2008-12-06, 18:45   Link #479
hero147
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Originally Posted by wtfftw View Post

Thats an assumption thats plain bullshit. This has to do with nyxone thinking Ali would fight to kill whereas Graham wouldnt. You cant decide that, only the one who is fighting can say yes im going for the kill or not. Then its obvious who can suffer most from such a skirmish.
1st of all stop with the fucking condescending tone, it's really starting to piss me off.

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Originally Posted by wtfftw View Post

its like having EMO Shin vs Emo kira where Kira only disables people yet Shin doenst and wouldnt mind doing an underhanded move. you cant freaking deduce that ruthlessness would determine who would win or say its an even battle.
As I remember, even though Kira was the better pilot in Gundam Seed Destiny, he still got his ass handed to him. Why? Because Shinn went under and took advantage of Kira's concept of disabling mobile suits rather than destroying them. Shinn attacked Kira "ruthlessly." Even Kira himself, wondered where this power was coming from, which of course was Shinn's vengeance.

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Originally Posted by wtfftw View Post

I can just as easily say i believe graham will win because he is honorable. It does not say anything about who would win. It just says how the person who pilots is.

SO what Graham and ali have a fight to the death. And then graham will hit the guy, Ali is death. Yet Ali was supposed to be ruthless yet could not kill lay a hand on graham how did ruthlessness help in fightiing graham? Winning is about who is the better pilot and the decisiveness to kill in the case of war.
How would Graham win? We have no primary givings about who is more skilled as a pilot, Graham or Ali. We've never seen them go 1 on 1. We can only deduce a hypothetical battle between them. Your hypothetical situation is assuming that Graham is better than Ali, which is not even confirmed....or invalid. Concerning both their skill level as pilots, Ali and Graham seem to be equal. People are indecisive who is better until we get a clearer picture.

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Originally Posted by wtfftw View Post
For 1 it depends on what sport

2 is their a judge who will say dude you did a cheap shot you lost

3 its not war like in G00 so killing has no rules cheaps shots are just shots (said it like 1000 times already) people understand this simple dumb fact.

4 If they are equal skills/power/mobility cheap shot do not matter as the honourable guy will be able to block it.
1. No it doesn't. The closest thing to a gundam fight right now would probably be a martial arts fight. Since you were complaining about mobility, speed, power etc..

2. No there is no judge, this is war. But Graham fights as though there is one

3. Even war has rules...Killing has rules...Unless you live in some "fantasy" world, then you have a more blurred image of our current world than I thought. There are declarations of war, warnings, ultimatums. Heck, even in the World Wars, soldiers tried to kill as little people as they could and still win for their country. There are stories of airplanes telling people to get out of their vehicles before they blew it to smitherines. Even in World War 1, people in the trenches of opposing sides got together and partied during Christmas.

4. You're assuming Graham will be able to block it. If they were of equal skill, I'm pretty sure Ali would put the attack on a combo, like a punch and a kick to the groin at the same time. I'm pretty sure, the skill level between Graham and Ali is miniscule to the least. Meaning, I'm pretty sure that Ali will be able land a blow Graham, and likely the place where he would least expect it, his weak area. Trick's and cheapshots are meant to be unpredictable, and unseen, hence why they usually work.

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Originally Posted by wtfftw View Post

In martial arts there are rules like you can not do this or it is not Karate anymore. Now in war there are no rules I have aid it billion times already. So all the bullcrap you say about ruthless is just nonsense. The VERY FACT its war is ruthless itself.

because Graham let setsuna live has nothing to do with Graham going all out on Ali. Why wouldn't he just kill Ali like all other grunts he killed fromkataron stop yeah the honourable it assumptions you have taken over that have no ground.

instead of saying all this honorable crap about graham go read or watch the dead people in war see how any of that can be seen as honorable. WAR is cruelty, violence ending people live.

All soldier can be regarded ruthless because they kill they dont pity who they kill they just kill because someone told them to or for whatever ever crap they can think of.
this is just making assumptions without any valid or concrete proof.
However Graham fights like there are rules. He would not attack under the belt even if the judge isn't there. Graham let Setsuna live because he is "honourable" not finishing an opponent when he is not at full strength. There is honour in war. Unfortunately, America seems to be changing that as the decades past by, but war, essentially contains honour. An analogy to World War 1, when a big battle ensued, such as the Battle of the Somme, both sides would cease fighting and an agreement would be made to collect the dead in No Man's land, the land inbetween the 2 trenches. Both Germany, France, and Britain, did not give "cheap shots" and attack during the ceasefire.

Soldiers are only human, they can't all be regarded as ruthless. Sure, they kill, but they also are sorry they were forced to do so. They say a solider is mentally dead once they realize themselves, that every person they killed had a name, a face, a possibly a family like oneself. In war, people were taught that the other side was inhumane or monsters, justifying their war and killing. By the way, don't be a hypocrite, you yourself "made assumptions without any valid or concrete proof. Graham was never concretely stated better than Ali.


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Originally Posted by wtfftw View Post

You infact state WHAT DOES makes someone better and those are the bolded parts in your post. The reason why such a person (who is ruthless yet near the same lvl of an honourable person) would win is because apparentlt he is stronger and faster. Not because he does a cheap blow but because his cheap blow is faster then the honourable person can react.. Thats the defining difference in skill. He is faster in landing a cheap blow. Now when thinking about piloting This relates to being faster to adapt and react on enemy movements.

If objective is to kill(which is the case of war) then this ruthless is bullshit. This has more to do with neglectfulness in finishing off opponents. Which is the case now with graham when it comes to Setsuna. However Graham is still a better pilot. WHile in Season 1 the finale they went all out and pretty much stabbed each other as much as they could until their suits stopped working. ANd what do we see in S2 with graham he kills anyone who interferes with his fight with setsuna. If Ali would come Graham would just go all out and wouldnt mind killing him i geuss seeing how he slashed up kataron.

You miss a fundamental step in your reasoning and that is the fact that the honorable person is on the ground because the ruthless guy put him there not because the person was ruthless but because the ruthless person was a better pilot. Your in fact saying the shit i have been saying all along you just dont see or understand what is of importance. The honorable person would never be on the ground getting stabbed shot if he was a better pilot now would he?


I mean you guys mix things really up. How does putting azadistan in flames (being ruthless) relates to this recent fight being a good pilot is beyond me.

anyway ill check tomorrow what nice arguments you guys have come up with again.
Lol...Who do you think is going to win? Let me make a better analogy for you. Ali and Graham are scheduled for a fight. Graham comes empty handed, while Ali brings a big-ass machine gun. Who is going to win? Ali. You know why? Because Ali is going to shoot the shit out of Graham. As fast as Graham can react, he'll still get shot.
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Old 2008-12-06, 21:48   Link #480
wtfftw
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Originally Posted by NyxOne View Post
I would comment on how your posts seep egotism from every pore and that they are heavily ignorant, but...oh, whoops.
or how you cant seem to just admit your wrong, you not even trying to go on about ruthless this tells more then enough that in fact you know what you said was wrong.

Quote:
1st of all stop with the fucking condescending tone, it's really starting to piss me off.
likewise
. 1st of all stop with the condescending tone.

Quote:
As I remember, even though Kira was the better pilot in Gundam Seed Destiny, he still got his ass handed to him. Why? Because Shinn went under and took advantage of Kira's concept of disabling mobile suits rather than destroying them. Shinn attacked Kira "ruthlessly." Even Kira himself, wondered where this power was coming from, which of course was Shinn's vengeance.
your talking about a particular battle where as i dont, there are more cases in which he let him live and won.

Anyway my earlier point made still hold you can not make a correct judgment saying Graham doesnt go for the kill whereas Ali would. With in mind that killing is the determining factor to win and say see Graham would not win because he would not go for a kill I mean where do you get these idea's from

That's equivalent to saying Manchester is honorable plays with 8 men and ruthless Chelsea with 11 and then when manchesters lose playing with their 8 men team and be like yeah see manchester wasnt as good as Chelsea.

Use some sense and know that in WAr there no rules and if they go all out ruthless as with backstabbing as has been used as argument by you guys does not hold. Graham if he had the chance would just as easily kill Ali as ali would do him

Quote:
How would Graham win? We have no primary givings about who is more skilled as a pilot, Graham or Ali. We've never seen them go 1 on 1. We can only deduce a hypothetical battle between them. Your hypothetical situation is assuming that Graham is better than Ali, which is not even confirmed....or invalid. Concerning both their skill level as pilots, Ali and Graham seem to be equal. People are indecisive who is better until we get a clearer picture.
please man read. Im using the laughable argument that ALi would win because he is ruthless in an opposite matter with Graham. Then you ask me how would Graham win. Yeah im pretty much saying that same thing your asking me to the ungrounded argument that Ali is ruthless thus win over Graham.

Im not saying that Graham is better in fact im saying the complete opposite that ali is better. But im saying that ali is better due to being a better pilot and not because he is ruthless. This last chapter showed that ali is somewhat better then Graham. His performance this battle was simply astonishing. Offcourse the suit helped in this but to pull such a thing of is just more then amazing.

Offcourse they would have to go 1 on 1 but from what we have seen agaianst opponents Ali seems to be the one that would stand out.

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1. No it doesn't. The closest thing to a gundam fight right now would probably be a martial arts fight. Since you were complaining about mobility, speed, power etc..

2. No there is no judge, this is war. But Graham fights as though there is one

3. Even war has rules...Killing has rules...Unless you live in some "fantasy" world, then you have a more blurred image of our current world than I thought. There are declarations of war, warnings, ultimatums. Heck, even in the World Wars, soldiers tried to kill as little people as they could and still win for their country. There are stories of airplanes telling people to get out of their vehicles before they blew it to smitherines. Even in World War 1, people in the trenches of opposing sides got together and partied during Christmas.

4. You're assuming Graham will be able to block it. If they were of equal skill, I'm pretty sure Ali would put the attack on a combo, like a punch and a kick to the groin at the same time. I'm pretty sure, the skill level between Graham and Ali is miniscule to the least. Meaning, I'm pretty sure that Ali will be able land a blow Graham, and likely the place where he would least expect it, his weak area. Trick's and cheapshots are meant to be unpredictable, and unseen, hence why they usually work.
1) yes it does if its a sport with alot of RULES its less like a real war skirmish whereas its a free fight you can even kill martial art where i have not even heard of bruce lee time of thing then well it would almost really resemble a war.

2)no he doesnt act as if there is a judge. He just does what he wants. He kills when he wants and he doesnt.

3) Dude serioulsy if you wanna talk like that at least we right on some things ok. So tell me whats the rule in war? declaration of war ROFL. Guess what to attack a country you do not have to write that you can just do that. There many rebels or countries even that have attacked without writing that. These Things you mention all have to do with rules countries/faction deciding for them self if they want to do that. This has more to do with chivalry and to only have war in dire critical issues as that it has to do with what your saying that they all do it. An alien race invading earth is never gonna write a letter of like hey we like earth we want it to be ours so thats why we wrote this letter.

4) im not gonna discuss something so stupid as that with you it was an example of you saying that they had equal power and skill etc anything can go either way around in favor for ali or Graham does not matter its the idea behind it. try reading it a view more times. It also related to point 3 i made earlier

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However Graham fights like there are rules. He would not attack under the belt even if the judge isn't there. Graham let Setsuna live because he is "honourable" not finishing an opponent when he is not at full strength. There is honour in war. Unfortunately, America seems to be changing that as the decades past by, but war, essentially contains honour. An analogy to World War 1, when a big battle ensued, such as the Battle of the Somme, both sides would cease fighting and an agreement would be made to collect the dead in No Man's land, the land inbetween the 2 trenches. Both Germany, France, and Britain, did not give "cheap shots" and attack during the ceasefire.
no he doesnt fight as if there are rules he just makes his own rules and fight by his own beliefs.

Honour is something subjective, some people view it as a disrespect if they lost that they arent finished off. What you gonna say about that that those people are dumb idiotic? Others even see it as idiotic to let someone live when you have the chance to kill him. Anyone can have his own view. However Graham fight by his own belief and sees that as honorable. I skipped the WW1 part cuz i rather have you understand the important issues 1st

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Soldiers are only human, they can't all be regarded as ruthless. Sure, they kill, but they also are sorry they were forced to do so. They say a solider is mentally dead once they realize themselves, that every person they killed had a name, a face, a possibly a family like oneself. In war, people were taught that the other side was inhumane or monsters, justifying their war and killing. By the way, don't be a hypocrite, you yourself "made assumptions without any valid or concrete proof. Graham was never concretely stated better than Ali.
My whole point was saying war in itself is ruthless as it involves killing. Soldier killing other soldiers do not have remorse for killing them off course there are exceptions however the point is the act which is ruthless, since we are talkinga bout fights. AND how this contradicts with saying Ali would come on top because he is ruthless.

You do not deny that war is not ruthless so do you know they were not merciful when killing people they just shot them in cold blood. Later on yeah ooh sorry i killed someone fine i dont deny that.

i dont get the bold part what is that part about? I mean have you at least tried to read since you didnt ill quote myself again
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1]Ali i think is slightly a better pilot. and he has an awesome suit.

2]even though Ali is ruthless as a person he is smart, cunning, has a great reflex when it comes to piloting, experience which puts him above other Ruthless is just how he is
so i dont get your bold part like with most of your arguments. I guess like most of the stuff you just say something that comes out of your head. Im at least understanding and remember what you have been saying and replying correctly. Thats why i reply in this tune because your just spouting stuff up.

Nyxone is not saying anything because he cant back it up now your saying stuff you think he said which is completely wrong. The entire cheapshots does not hold in warfare. There are only cheapshots. War is all about killing your opponent as hard/fast and badly as possible to submission yet your example does not apply as cheap shot are regarded cheapshot because its not allowed in some martial arts sports. Where as there are no cheapshots in war. I mean mannequin came up with he most fucked up offense to take down CB now in your eyes it might be viewed as cheapshot but thats just war as it is its always dirty.

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Lol...Who do you think is going to win? Let me make a better analogy for you. Ali and Graham are scheduled for a fight. Graham comes empty handed, while Ali brings a big-ass machine gun. Who is going to win? Ali. You know why? Because Ali is going to shoot the shit out of Graham. As fast as Graham can react, he'll still get shot.
you really dont get what im saying right.

Im saying you guys pick circumstances that are obvious who will win when the objective is to kill. Whereas im saying in war anything can go. If they go all out meaning intend to kill both side would pick something to take out the other in such a situation both Ali and graham would pick something to kill.

Your example just says ALi would go out in his normal suit Whereas Graham would go unarmed. For me such examples to prove your point are simply dumb.

Im saying something really of importance when i bolded that part. In war a shot is a shot. It doesn't matter if its bloody or clean its still the same. The objective has been achieved person is dead.

Graham would kill too if he were to fight Ali. If assume an all out battle between the 2 and not the stupid restriction you people seem to put on just so you can be right. A fight between these 2 would not be creditable if 1 side has restrictions.

Last edited by wtfftw; 2008-12-06 at 22:04.
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