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Old 2009-06-23, 18:08   Link #1281
onemadcow
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Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
Just a remind that there is a manga thread for all your manga-related discussion needs. I moved a manga spoiler question there, so please feel free to go help the reader out. This thread is, of course, for the anime.
Thanks for providing the link. I'm pretty sure most people here were either unaware that there was a manga link for Saki or were unable to find it after a basic search. It's lack of activity had pushed it far down the list of topics (aside from the question that you transferred to it today, there's been no activity in the thread since April 20), and since 'saki' is a common ending in Japanese words or names, it's quite possible it wouldn't show up on the first page of results for a search either. The author is partially to blame for that, since there hasn't been a new chapter in 6 weeks, but c'mon ...

I'm sure people just want to have their questions answered as quickly as possible from someone who knows what they are talking about, so c'mon manga-philes! Pimp up the topic so that we don't have to go on a bug hunt for it!
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Old 2009-06-24, 06:15   Link #1282
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Can someone explain to me why Hisa discarded the 5 of Characters in stead fo the 4 of Characters in episode 12.

If she discard the 4 of characters at least she could've had the chance to win with a pair of 5 of characters couldn't she?

Because i could onlyh see 3 sets of 5 of characters, 1 discarded by someone else, 1 visible on the dead wall and Hisa's 5 of characters, there's one missing.
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Old 2009-06-24, 06:31   Link #1283
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Originally Posted by kniteowl View Post
Can someone explain to me why Hisa discarded the 5 of Characters in stead fo the 4 of Characters in episode 12.

If she discard the 4 of characters at least she could've had the chance to win with a pair of 5 of characters couldn't she?

Because i could onlyh see 3 sets of 5 of characters, 1 discarded by someone else, 1 visible on the dead wall and Hisa's 5 of characters, there's one missing.
I think she did it on purpose for intimidation purposes after she showed her hand.

The chances of that 1 remaining 5 turning up are minuscule, and that hand would have only been worth about 1000-2000 points anyway. Maybe she also did it for the crowd?

Also, the 5 of characters is the dora indicator. Discarding that is generally a "riskier" move than discarding the 4th of a certain tile, and since her purpose was to intimidate Tsuruga into bailing instead of playing into Hajime's hand by discarding the 7 of bamboo she picked up, she played was seemed to be the "gutsier" move on purpose.
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Last edited by Quarkboy; 2009-06-24 at 06:46.
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Old 2009-06-24, 08:03   Link #1284
mizuki_tohru
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Originally Posted by kniteowl View Post
Can someone explain to me why Hisa discarded the 5 of Characters in stead fo the 4 of Characters in episode 12.

If she discard the 4 of characters at least she could've had the chance to win with a pair of 5 of characters couldn't she?

Because i could onlyh see 3 sets of 5 of characters, 1 discarded by someone else, 1 visible on the dead wall and Hisa's 5 of characters, there's one missing.
Mahjong is a probability and diplomacy game. Although a player carries out the play which raises the probability that tile set in its hand will be completed, it must guess simultaneously what kind of composition others' set has, and must interfere with completion of a partner's set. You are burdened with a penalty when a partner completes set by tile which especially a you threw away.

Hisa's tile composition are able to win, when one of five kinds of tile appeared. However, Hisa threw away the set and changed it to the composition which waits for one kind of tile to appear.

Note that tile which player threw away is altogether displayed also including turn. What tile which Hisa threw away suggests is the composition which waits for five kinds of tiles. Moreover, probably, the probability that someone is making set using tile of the same kind as thrown-away tile will be low. Usually, the kind of thrown-away tiles means safety. Bundou is carrying out the good guess. However, Hisa used her guess.
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Old 2009-06-24, 10:22   Link #1285
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You know, there's something that's been bothering me about the subtitles from CR. Why do they use the Chinese terms in the subs when the characters use the Japanese terms?
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Old 2009-06-24, 10:28   Link #1286
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Originally Posted by DmonHiro View Post
You know, there's something that's been bothering me about the subtitles from CR. Why do they use the Chinese terms in the subs when the characters use the Japanese terms?
Is it? I thought chow was a badly pronounced American version of the Chinese term "chi" where it's pronounced like this ( http://www.nciku.com/search/zh/detail/%E5%90%83/1301960 ) as opposed to the qi of your body.
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Old 2009-06-24, 10:46   Link #1287
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No, "pong" "chow" "kong" are the Chinese terms for Mahjong. All the characters SAY the Japanese terms "pon" "chi" "kon". It makes no sense to write something else then what the characters are saying.
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Old 2009-06-24, 11:39   Link #1288
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Originally Posted by DmonHiro View Post
No, "pong" "chow" "kong" are the Chinese terms for Mahjong.
And more importantly, as was explained earlier in the thread, they are the English terms. They are what is listed as the proper terms in the English competition rule sets for Japanese mahjong. Also, if you hadn't noticed, almost all the hands are written out in English instead of a string of Japanese.
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Old 2009-06-24, 11:45   Link #1289
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Originally Posted by DmonHiro View Post
No, "pong" "chow" "kong" are the Chinese terms for Mahjong. All the characters SAY the Japanese terms "pon" "chi" "kon". It makes no sense to write something else then what the characters are saying.
The reason is simple: Take all the potential audience: How many are familiar with mahjong (of any sort)? Which terms are the majority familiar with? The answer is american or chinese mahjong, for an english speaking audience. Out of the people who play mahjong in the west, a vastly greater number use those pronunciations.

Chow, Kong, Pung are not some unique concept to Japanese Mahjong, so I use the most widely used terms in the larger English language Mahjong community (not limiting the potential audience just to people who know Japanese riichi mahjong).

Buy any book on mahjong in english in a book store, and that's the terminology that's used. Terms that have no counterpart in american mahjong like yaku or dora are left as is, but things that are familiar concepts to western mahjong players are translated.

That's the principal I operate under. I _translate_ what is said, I don't annotate it.
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Old 2009-06-24, 11:52   Link #1290
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That does not change the fact the they use the Japanese terms, and you use the Chinese. It just sounds wrong to hear one thing, and read another. But hey, suit yourself, I was just asking because it seems stupid to translate from Japanese to English using Chinese terms. Also, the point of "most known terms is moot, since the show uses overcomplicated hands that I'm sure nobody knew when the show started, so "pon" "chi" "kon" are nothing compared to "Suuankou" or other stuff like that.

Anyway, about the episode. It sure was nice of Sebastian to fix the Penguin, but I have to ask, why does nobody know what Koromo looks like? Also, I find the way she talks adorable. She's not very good with the spoken language outside of those strange proverbs she uses.
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Old 2009-06-24, 12:03   Link #1291
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Originally Posted by DmonHiro View Post
That does not change the fact the they use the Japanese terms, and you use the Chinese. It just sounds wrong to hear one thing, and read another. But hey, suit yourself, I was just asking because it seems stupid to translate from Japanese to English using Chinese terms.
Actually, in principal I understand your argument.

Hell I even gave the phenomena a name, called "visioacoustic dissonance". All I'm saying is that I think it only really effects people like you who were already familiar with japanese mahjong, who are in a small minority. So the benefit of the many outweigh the concerns of the few.

That's the reason why I prefer to keep honorifics in my subtitles as well, however I come to the opposite conclusion: At this point in time, a majority of anime watchers know and understand terms like -kun, -san, and if they are omitted there is visioacoustic dissonance. Since that group is the majority, I include the honorifics.
But here the people familiar with chi and pon are not in the majority.
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Old 2009-06-24, 12:17   Link #1292
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Originally Posted by Quarkboy View Post
That's the reason why I prefer to keep honorifics in my subtitles as well, however I come to the opposite conclusion: At this point in time, a majority of anime watchers know and understand terms like -kun, -san, and if they are omitted there is visioacoustic dissonance. Since that group is the majority, I include the honorifics.
But here the people familiar with chi and pon are not in the majority.
Hmm....I see, that does make sense. So what you're saying is that you will use the terms that most people are familial with. That's cool. By the way, I also wanted to ask about Touka's speaking patters...I guess you can't really translate ~desu wa
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Old 2009-06-24, 12:31   Link #1293
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Originally Posted by DmonHiro View Post
Hmm....I see, that does make sense. So what you're saying is that you will use the terms that most people are familial with. That's cool. By the way, I also wanted to ask about Touka's speaking patters...I guess you can't really translate ~desu wa
I do try and give her an aristocratic air to her, but it's the type of thing that has to be used sparingly or it becomes very odd in English.
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Old 2009-06-24, 12:34   Link #1294
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Originally Posted by DmonHiro View Post
Hmm....I see, that does make sense. So what you're saying is that you will use the terms that most people are familial with. That's cool. By the way, I also wanted to ask about Touka's speaking patters...I guess you can't really translate ~desu wa
Plus does it really matter if a different term that means the same thing is used? I personally don't mind whether they use pong or pon as long as the translation is right

And I like Hisa's gutsy style of play. Actually it makes a lot of sense why she plays at her best when she picks the riskier option of going through with bad hands is that her opponents will have a hard time in determining what winning tile she actually needs. This is a mind game for her and picking the trickiest waits to pull off actually works to her advantage since her opponents should not feel safe with any tiles. It is easy to read whether someone is going for a certain suit in most cases but when Hisa does stuff like discarding the suit which others think she needs in order to win then this throws them completely off, hence they are unable to hold onto Hisa's winning tile intentionally if they don't even know what she is after any more.

"Sebastian" is great...gotta love the guy
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Old 2009-06-24, 15:22   Link #1295
Anh_Minh
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I think it also shows Nodoka's growth as a character and mahjong player. Now, she knows that her way isn't the only, or even necessarily the best, way.
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Old 2009-06-24, 23:13   Link #1296
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Ah "desu wa" loved it when Touka says that.

Anyway, I think Hisa really play based on psychology.
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Old 2009-06-26, 05:54   Link #1297
Willen
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And I like Hisa's gutsy style of play. Actually it makes a lot of sense why she plays at her best when she picks the riskier option of going through with bad hands is that her opponents will have a hard time in determining what winning tile she actually needs. This is a mind game for her and picking the trickiest waits to pull off actually works to her advantage since her opponents should not feel safe with any tiles. It is easy to read whether someone is going for a certain suit in most cases but when Hisa does stuff like discarding the suit which others think she needs in order to win then this throws them completely off, hence they are unable to hold onto Hisa's winning tile intentionally if they don't even know what she is after any more.
This is why I like her. She knows that her opponents are now aware of her play style and this just reinforces it. It's a mind screw. Lower/lesser skilled players will worry more about her hand than theirs and will eventually screw up or play into her hands by discarding the (in)correct tile to either allow Hisa to win or to prevent themselves from winning. The tile that is normally safe to discard is more often the one she needs to win. So the opponent either discards the tile she needs to win (and thus loses points to her), or if they figure she needs it, they hold onto it thus making it harder for them to build their own winning hand.
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Old 2009-06-26, 06:51   Link #1298
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This is why I like her. She knows that her opponents are now aware of her play style and this just reinforces it. It's a mind screw. Lower/lesser skilled players will worry more about her hand than theirs and will eventually screw up or play into her hands by discarding the (in)correct tile to either allow Hisa to win or to prevent themselves from winning. The tile that is normally safe to discard is more often the one she needs to win. So the opponent either discards the tile she needs to win (and thus loses points to her), or if they figure she needs it, they hold onto it thus making it harder for them to build their own winning hand.
But if she went up against someone like Nodoka who plays purely by overall probabilities over multiple hands, she'd lose. Unless she manages to fluster Nodoka, anyway.
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Old 2009-06-26, 07:09   Link #1299
Willen
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But if she went up against someone like Nodoka who plays purely by overall probabilities over multiple hands, she'd lose. Unless she manages to fluster Nodoka, anyway.
Oh yeah, the Nodoka, Saki, and Koromo-types, if they kept their heads straight, would demolish her. Didn't Fujita-pro do something like this to them during their mahjong-cafe match?
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Old 2009-06-26, 08:50   Link #1300
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What a fun show so far. I feel a bit sorry for Mihoko as the one person who she's been trying to meet for the last three years doesn't seem to recognize her at all. It's especially amusing since she's held in such high regard by her teamates, but still all she wants to hear is a word of approval from Hisa...

As for the rest of the show, I'm really amused that Saki has had about 5 lines in the last two episodes even though she's supposed to be the main character. Also, as everyone has pointed out, Koromo is turning out completely differently from what I expected, and I'm enjoying her a lot more than most others with here archetype.

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Originally Posted by Willen View Post
This is why I like her. She knows that her opponents are now aware of her play style and this just reinforces it. It's a mind screw. Lower/lesser skilled players will worry more about her hand than theirs and will eventually screw up or play into her hands by discarding the (in)correct tile to either allow Hisa to win or to prevent themselves from winning. The tile that is normally safe to discard is more often the one she needs to win. So the opponent either discards the tile she needs to win (and thus loses points to her), or if they figure she needs it, they hold onto it thus making it harder for them to build their own winning hand.
Hisa's strategy actually works better against better players precisely because she screws around with improbable waits. Good players know to make low-risk discards, but lesser players are more likely to just focus on their own hands without worrying about their opponents as much, so they'll be less affected by someone else's play style.

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But if she went up against someone like Nodoka who plays purely by overall probabilities over multiple hands, she'd lose. Unless she manages to fluster Nodoka, anyway.
That's sort of correct over many hands, but with the two han-chan games in the tournament, there's a decent chance of doing some damage. Moreover, much of the point of Hisa's style isn't necessarily about scoring big hands; it's also about forcing other players to abandon their own big hands. Good players are going to avoid discarding high-risk tiles anyways, so why not make them sweat about discarding seemingly safer ones as well? As long as one adheres to going for hell-waits consistently and plays against good players, there's a decent chance of doing fairly well.

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Oh yeah, the Nodoka, Saki, and Koromo-types, if they kept their heads straight, would demolish her. Didn't Fujita-pro do something like this to them during their mahjong-cafe match?
I don't know if they would demolish Hisa given that she's a decently good defensive player to begin with - I don't think that she ended up playing into anyone's hand. Moreover, going for hell- and 0-chance waits is going to be enough to throw off just about anyone's game, even if only a little.
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