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Old 2009-07-25, 00:11   Link #1661
FateAnomaly
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I actually had the reaction as the pro (whats her name?) when i learn that Yumi is not the president. She sure had the presence though.

Anyway, i kinda agree spectrum tier list too.
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Old 2009-07-25, 00:12   Link #1662
Spectrum
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Whoops, thanks for the info! Nope, no comment was left, hence why I had to ask. No big. (Sorry, haven't been on asuki for awhile...only came back 'cause of this show! Hehe)

-----

Trope theory pretty much demands that Kana gets a comeback, yeah. As has been noted, the most appropriate thing is her finally taking a big chunk back off of Koromo, which gives Saki the opportunity to steal the lead right at the end with her own hax powers.

Or maybe Saki's hax powers are mistargeted and she steals all of Kana's points to end the game and take the lead that way.

EDIT: And yeah, +1 to being surprised that Yumi wasn't the president. Seems like all of the other presidents have been the strongest personality in their club for the most part.
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Old 2009-07-25, 00:29   Link #1663
Willen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paraalso View Post
There's no reason for her to have turned off her stealth completely. Being in stealth mode against 2 players is still a massive advantage, even if she must be careful about discarding to Nodoka's hand. So she must play seriously against one player in the game, while everyone else needs to play against 3 other players. While I agree that Momo isn't a bad player without her powers, you can't make any judgements based on the point situation. For the point situation to end up the way it did at the end, Momo must have won some offscreen wins, and we don't know if those were stealth wins or normal wins.
You have to remember that Momo was recruited not because of her stealth abilities, but for her solid online Mahjong play. As Nodoka proved, you can't hide anything except your concealed tiles (and those can be guessed) when it's a net-game. Stealth Momo is a bonus.

And Kanbara is my second favorite character after Hisa. Her laugh gets me every time. And her "Kaori sucks as usual" line was great.
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Old 2009-07-25, 00:30   Link #1664
tjalorak
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spectrum View Post
Trope theory pretty much demands that Kana gets a comeback, yeah. As has been noted, the most appropriate thing is her finally taking a big chunk back off of Koromo, which gives Saki the opportunity to steal the lead right at the end with her own hax powers.

Or maybe Saki's hax powers are mistargeted and she steals all of Kana's points to end the game and take the lead that way.

EDIT: And yeah, +1 to being surprised that Yumi wasn't the president. Seems like all of the other presidents have been the strongest personality in their club for the most part.
Assuming that the person who hits zero points from the preview is Kana, either Yumi and Saki have to be careful to only ron Koromo (or I suppose, each other but that doesn't really help), Kana is going to have to either tsumo or ron on her own merits, or someone's going to have to help her win enough points so that the game doesn't end.

And yes, I think Kanbara's pretty funny in her deadpan way but she doesn't really fit into the strong personality of the other presidents. Although, this means that NONE of the presidents are in the final round, which is sort of funny. I'd say that means that none of the presidents are the best in their club but at least in Kazekoshi's case, it's unclear as to who's better between Kana and Mihoko and how they match up against Koromo.

Edit: (And I STILL don't get Kazekoshi's line up strategy. You KNOW you're going to be facing Koromo in the last round and you don't make sure you're leading going into the last round? Or at least not last?)
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Old 2009-07-25, 00:35   Link #1665
Spectrum
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Originally Posted by tjalorak View Post
Assuming that the person who hits zero points from the preview is Kana, either Yumi and Saki have to be careful to only ron Koromo (or I suppose, each other but that doesn't really help), Kana is going to have to either tsumo or ron on her own merits, or someone's going to have to help her win enough points so that the game doesn't end.

And yes, I think Kanbara's pretty funny in her deadpan way but she doesn't really fit into the strong personality of the other presidents. Although, this means that NONE of the presidents are in the final round, which is sort of funny. I'd say that means that none of the presidents are the best in their club but at least in Kazekoshi's case, it's unclear as to who's better between Kana and Mihoko and how they match up against Koromo.
Yeah. It's difficult, though, since it's not like Koromo is a naturally bad player who's absurdly lucky. Most of the time if she's giving something up, it's "JUST AS PLANNED" or something similar. At least, thus far.

For Mihoko/Kazekoshi, I think it's clear she's their best player, but she chose to go first to a) cut her weaker players a break, b) counter Jun who she knows is going first and gave them trouble last year and was causing havoc earlier this year. Remember, Ryuumonbuchi doesn't change their lineup that we've seen, while Kazekoshi seems to be playing mostly normal/reactive play (whole strategy of flexible waits and changing order to try for the best matchup). After that, Kana's the clear second best player, so they leave her last to try and counter the monsters.
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Old 2009-07-25, 00:38   Link #1666
Sindas
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Unlike the other schools Kazekoshi have like 50 members and they're ranked...
So seeing all the players worshipping Mihoko pretty much proves she's ranked #1.

Plus she's got her crazy all seeing eye...
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Old 2009-07-25, 00:45   Link #1667
tjalorak
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Originally Posted by Spectrum View Post
For Mihoko/Kazekoshi, I think it's clear she's their best player, but she chose to go first to a) cut her weaker players a break, b) counter Jun who she knows is going first and gave them trouble last year and was causing havoc earlier this year. Remember, Ryuumonbuchi doesn't change their lineup that we've seen, while Kazekoshi seems to be playing mostly normal/reactive play (whole strategy of flexible waits and changing order to try for the best matchup). After that, Kana's the clear second best player, so they leave her last to try and counter the monsters.
If Kana is that good, she should be able to counter Jun and gain a lead for them, which would allow them to match up their best player for Koromo. Maybe it wouldn't be as BIG of a lead as Mihoko got, but that would be more than made up by the fact that Koromo probably wouldn't be able to ron Kazekoshi with impunity as she is doing currently. Setting up Kana to have to play overly aggressive to catch up... at the very least, Mihoko would be cautious enough to know not to play into Koromo's hands and with her ability, she'd probably even have a decent chance of at least countering Koromo's ability to prevent tenpai.

No one could have predicted Kaori's lucky streak but the Kazekoshi girl there protected their lead so that round isn't a problem for them.

Vice captain match up is fine too. Kazekoshi didn't win but they didn't lose much either. On a tangent, this round shows one of the reasons I'm not as much of a fan of Nodoka in terms of playing style. She's a steady player but in a way, she's inflexible (see her round against the first opponents when she calls a riichi; doesn't matter if she's up 50k or down 50k, she's going to play her logical way and that's that). Her logical style means she's not going to gain a lot of points. She's great if you're protecting a lead or near the top but if you need someone to gain you a lot of points fast, she won't be able to do that. Well, I guess it's lucky that Hisa was before her and gained back the points lost from first and second round.

Okay, given the switch up, they're still going to get hurt by Hisa, but Hisa seemed to aim for Kazekoshi on purpose because they were leading. With less of a lead, Hisa would just switch more evenly between Kazekoshi and Tsuruga.
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Old 2009-07-25, 01:06   Link #1668
Willen
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Kazekoshi didn't plan on having Kiyosumi's Hisa and Saki wrecking the competition along with the expected Nodoka. If it was just Nodoka with 4 average players like in junior high, the expectation would be that they might get to the finals but wouldn't be strong enough to mount a serious challenge.

And no one expected Tsuruga to have Kaori get them from last to second place in the second round, not to mention the appearance (or disappearance?) of Stealth Momo. I also just realized that the presidents of Kiyosumi and Tsuruga played against each other in round 3.

Assuming that we haven't seen Kana's true abilities yet, right now the main reason she's the captain is to get another chance against Koromo. Kana does at least have experience playing against her. Unfortunately, she's also playing against another monster in Saki "Rinshan Kaihou" Miyanaga.

It was supposed to be Kazekoshi vs. Ryuumonbuchi and everybody else is just collateral damage. The best laid plans, and all...
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Old 2009-07-25, 01:10   Link #1669
Sindas
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I'm pretty sure Kazekoshi's strategy was to use their best at first so she can get a monster lead from less skilled players and then have the other players play defensively and keep the lead...

Unfortunately Kaori is mega lucky, they didn't know about Hisa until to late and were poorly prepared for her and they thought Kana could survive Koromo however the last time they faced her it wasn't a full moon and so she's way stronger now.

EDIT: Wow I keep replying at the same time as other people... what's up with that...
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Old 2009-07-25, 01:16   Link #1670
Spectrum
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Originally Posted by tjalorak View Post
If Kana is that good, she should be able to counter Jun and gain a lead for them, which would allow them to match up their best player for Koromo. Maybe it wouldn't be as BIG of a lead as Mihoko got, but that would be more than made up by the fact that Koromo probably wouldn't be able to ron Kazekoshi with impunity as she is doing currently. Setting up Kana to have to play overly aggressive to catch up... at the very least, Mihoko would be cautious enough to know not to play into Koromo's hands and with her ability, she'd probably even have a decent chance of at least countering Koromo's ability to prevent tenpai.

No one could have predicted Kaori's lucky streak but the Kazekoshi girl there protected their lead so that round isn't a problem for them.

Vice captain match up is fine too. Kazekoshi didn't win but they didn't lose much either. On a tangent, this round shows one of the reasons I'm not as much of a fan of Nodoka in terms of playing style. She's a steady player but in a way, she's inflexible (see her round against the first opponents when she calls a riichi; doesn't matter if she's up 50k or down 50k, she's going to play her logical way and that's that). Her logical style means she's not going to gain a lot of points. She's great if you're protecting a lead or near the top but if you need someone to gain you a lot of points fast, she won't be able to do that. Well, I guess it's lucky that Hisa was before her and gained back the points lost from first and second round.

Okay, given the switch up, they're still going to get hurt by Hisa, but Hisa seemed to aim for Kazekoshi on purpose because they were leading. With less of a lead, Hisa would just switch more evenly between Kazekoshi and Tsuruga.
My best guess is that it's, once again, a matchup issue. I think it's fair to say that even if Kana is overall their second best, stylistically, for whatever reason, she may be a far worse matchup against Jun. Jun's hax game is flow, Mihoko's hax game is flow sensing. She's a perfect counter.

Plus, the whole having faith in your nakama thing. I guess she can't have expected Kana would be playing from such a weak position going into the last round.

As for Nodoka...this is true to an extent, but consider what she could do against someone even slightly less defensive. They'd just get utterly crushed as she picks them apart. I'm sure we saw that in the previous rounds.

I don't know if Hisa was aiming for Kazekoshi or just being opportunistic, tbh.
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Old 2009-07-25, 01:59   Link #1671
Willen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spectrum View Post
I don't know if Hisa was aiming for Kazekoshi or just being opportunistic, tbh.
Based on Hisa's play style and with a hell wait you can't pick and choose which discard to take or you'll end up in furiten or plain not winning, I'd say that she's being purely opportunistic. It's just bad luck that Bundou's discard was Hisa' winning tile.
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Old 2009-07-25, 02:03   Link #1672
tjalorak
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Based on Hisa's play style and with a hell wait you can't pick and choose which discard to take or you'll end up in furiten or plain not winning, I'd say that she's being purely opportunistic. It's just bad luck that Bundou's discard was Hisa' winning tile.
Well, that we saw anyway. By the end of the round, both Tsuruga and Kazekoshi were down there and Hisa had maintained a slim lead over Ryuumonbuchi. Therefore, Ryuumonbuchi couldn't have just owned the rest of the round (otherwise, Ryuumonbuchi would be over Kiyosumi) and Hisa had to have won some hands either off of tusmos or off of Tsuruga.

Also, I think Hisa took some hell waits by taking into account what type of hand Kazekoshi was building and what type of tiles she was discarding. I don't think she just chose the waits randomly.
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Old 2009-07-25, 02:08   Link #1673
kk2extreme
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geass should be used in the last round, not the first.
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Old 2009-07-25, 02:10   Link #1674
Willen
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Originally Posted by tjalorak View Post
Well, that we saw anyway. By the end of the round, both Tsuruga and Kazekoshi were down there and Hisa had maintained a slim lead over Ryuumonbuchi. Therefore, Ryuumonbuchi couldn't have just owned the rest of the round (otherwise, Ryuumonbuchi would be over Kiyosumi) and Hisa had to have won some hands either off of tusmos or off of Tsuruga.

Also, I think Hisa took some hell waits by taking into account what type of hand Kazekoshi was building and what type of tiles she was discarding. I don't think she just chose the waits randomly.
"I need points. Hey, that Kazekoshi person over there has lots of points." Aims for Kazekoshi.

Probably. But sometimes you gotta take them where you can get them.
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Old 2009-07-25, 02:19   Link #1675
tjalorak
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"I need points. Hey, that Kazekoshi person over there has lots of points." Aims for Kazekoshi.

Probably. But sometimes you gotta take them where you can get them.
Oh sure. Yumi does the same thing to Kana when she takes 12k off of her. But you do try to structure your hand so that your points will probably come from the person you want to take down.

And like the conspiracy episode, to a certain extent, you work with the others to aim for the high point player.

I played in one game where some guy jumped out to a huge lead. We ALL aimed for him and managed to whittle him back down to our level. Of course you take the points where you can get them (esp. if doing so won't zero or decrease someone to such a point where he becomes a liability until such time as you're close to the top) but if you can take a ron on the large point guy, you take it asap and your erstwhile temporary allies will do so as well. Although, we actually ended up losing this game but only because the high point player in question kept tsumoing and his lowest tsumo was 8k points and he was getting 16k and 24k regularly.

But Saki and co-conspirators are better players than our group so it'll probably work out better for them.
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Old 2009-07-25, 02:23   Link #1676
Spectrum
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Originally Posted by tjalorak View Post
Oh sure. Yumi does the same thing to Kana when she takes 12k off of her. But you do try to structure your hand so that your points will probably come from the person you want to take down.

And like the conspiracy episode, to a certain extent, you work with the others to aim for the high point player.

I played in one game where some guy jumped out to a huge lead. We ALL aimed for him and managed to whittle him back down to our level. Of course you take the points where you can get them (esp. if doing so won't zero or decrease someone to such a point where he becomes a liability until such time as you're close to the top) but if you can take a ron on the large point guy, you take it asap and your erstwhile temporary allies will do so as well. Although, we actually ended up losing this game but only because the high point player in question kept tsumoing and his lowest tsumo was 8k points and he was getting 16k and 24k regularly.

But Saki and co-conspirators are better players than we were so it'll probably work out better for them.
This is definitely an aspect foreign to me, as I'm coming from a Canto style background. There's not nearly that kind of directed fire going on, given that when you win, you get chips from everyone except in very rare circumstances.

It just seems odd to purposely make a weaker hand just because you think that a given player *might* throw the tile you're looking for.
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Old 2009-07-25, 02:30   Link #1677
night_sentinel
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Kudos to Spectrum, that is a nice power chart!

Quote:
S-Rank (God Tier)
Koromo (duh)
Saki (duh)
Nodoka (yes. she has bad matchups with the other S-Rank, but she can still wreck pretty much anyone else)

AA-Rank (Best of the normals)
Hisa (overall very strong)
Yumi (we don't know for sure whether she's here or A-rank, but given that they're in the finals and how she's viewed, we'll give her the benefit of the doubt)
Mihoko (first round destruction, repeated observations, etc etc etc)
Touka (bad matchup against Momoko and being distracted by Nodoka doesn't change that she's usually a good player)

A-Rank (Elites)
Kana (yes. she's just outmatched by the monsters at the table right now because she's getting her 50/50s wrong and Koromo is dust-looping her )
Hajime (debated putting her in AA but didn't think she was quite that good)
Jun (debated dropping her to B tbh, but we have evidence of prior round destruction and Mihoko took her seriously enough to play first)
Momoko (Stealth Momo! Well, that and good enough normal play)

B-Rank (above average)
Mako
Kanbara (benefit of the doubt given she's the president)

C-Rank (and everyone else)
Yuuki
Tsuyumi
Tomoki
the three 'normal' Kazekoshi girls...although whoever was in Round 4 might deserve a B-Rank

D-Rank (what the hell are you doing here?)
Kaori ()
If assuming a letter up from a tier shows a ridiculous gap in ability, this would be my suggested revision.

S - Rank ( God Tier )
The person in this tier is so powerful that it is almost impossible to beat them except another S rank.

Koromo - as Koromo has shown no one in the table can currently touch her or even impede her progress. I would go further and suggest that no one in the tournament can stop her, even Momo stealth is useless to Koromo. Since well invisible or not, Koromo's haitei is still there and will stop any player for declaring tenpai. Kazekoshi's Mihoko will also receive the same fate.

Saki - technically the only one in the tournament who has a chance to stop Koromo. If I look at Saki's ability objectively, she is a monster class player. I don't think Saki on the previous episode has shown her true abilities. The bad news, Koromo is probably the worse match-up against Saki who just recently learned that mahjong can be actually fun, do not like competitive play, and ridiculously sensitive to another's aura. Hell, it is debatable if Saki actually wants to win or doing what is expected of her...

Tier AAA
(Though they can't beat those in Tier S, they are

Mihoko - has been implied to have stopped Touka, have actually defeated Jun and the current best member of Kazekoshi. Her ability to read the flow of the game and hide herself from the flow can blindside opponents. Seems to have a good head on her shoulder since she is usually one of the first to realize the unexpected elements in the tournament from a relatively few clues i.e. Saki being a good player, Hisa's style of play, etc.

Hisa - implied to have beaten or at the very least have given Mihoko a hard time when they last faced. A really good strategist and tactician capable of mind screwing ones opponent. Her style of play will usually throw everyone off and sow confusion.

Nodoka - implied to have defeated Hisa or at least equal to her. She is a very solid player undeterred by low point or high and most of the players' special skills doesn't work or lose effectiveness when playing against her.

Yumi - a player that is shown to be a good tactician capable of adjusting to any situation. Unfortunately, she is currently facing full powered monster player called Koromo.

Momoko - her stealth ability will be useful against any opponent, though it is doubtful if it will work against S-class who can feel auras. Except Nodoka and the S-class players, her ability will be work effectively after all how the hell do you fight something that you can't see?

Rank AA
Touka - loses against Momo and Nodoka, implied to lose to Mihako. I think she can actually be an AAA class player if you she can tame her overconfidence, but then again she won't be Touka then.

Jun - despite losing to Mihoko, it was implied that she managed to turn an opponent's point from 100,000 to 0. Then, giving Ryumonbuchi the win on the first round.

Hajime - seems to be a pretty solid player. If the camera isn't there she can use slight of hand (jk ) Manage to gain points despite Hisa's mind screwing, that take guts and intuition especially since she seems to have a phobia to anything that resembles Koromo's style of play.

Kana - err... really hard to judge. She is currently facing Koromo and seems to have a need to prove herself that screws her better judgement. ( I'm giving her the benefit of the doubt )

I'm going to stop here for now.
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Old 2009-07-25, 02:33   Link #1678
tjalorak
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Originally Posted by Spectrum View Post
This is definitely an aspect foreign to me, as I'm coming from a Canto style background. There's not nearly that kind of directed fire going on, given that when you win, you get chips from everyone except in very rare circumstances.

It just seems odd to purposely make a weaker hand just because you think that a given player *might* throw the tile you're looking for.
Yeah. Rons are awesome.

You don't necessarily make a weaker hand but you might not take your winning tile from one of your conspirators and accept the temporary furiten (you usually don't want to riichi when your points are low so that you have more flexibility; see Kana's thoughts on her hoping to win on that "surefire" hand), you might change your hand a bit to take into account what the other player is discarding, or you might just play defensively and wait and see if your conspirators can ron.

(Caveat: my own experiences and thoughts on it. In the game mentioned above, I gave up a ron on the lowest point player to see if anyone could hit the high point player and a couple go arounds later, the lowest point player hit the high point player for a fair amount of points. It would probably suck though if everyone was waiting to see if someone can ron the high point player as when Koromo had lined up a monster hand and no one could get into position to either ron her or otherwise stop her. Luckily, Yumi guessed right and gave Saki the win.)
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Old 2009-07-25, 03:02   Link #1679
DmonHiro
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The power charts is very well made....and I love that most people are using the GuiltyGear/Nanoha power levels.
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Old 2009-07-25, 03:38   Link #1680
Peanutbutter
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Without spoiling too much, I can understand why Kazekoshi puts Kana in the final round.

As we'll see, there'll be a lot of ups and downs.

And earlier there was a discussion about Nodoka able to "neutralize" other people's "powers", well from my understanding, if Nodoka does face Koromo, she'll face what Touka has experienced.

There's no point in being the most logical of all if you are always stuck in "iishanten". Believe me. I know the feeling.
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