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Old 2009-07-25, 06:08   Link #1681
Quarkboy
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Of all the players we've seen so far, actually, Hisa would be the most suited when it comes to playing Koromo.

That's because if you recall, Koromo's "can't get to tenpai" powers only work if you play somewhat logically. Yumi managed to get tenpai by playing erratically that one hand, so Hisa, who often chooses odds defying waits and other silliness, might be able to get tenpai against Koromo.

Also, Koromo's other technique of quick calls and rons off other people would be mitigated by Hisa's world class defensive play.

Could Hisa win? If she hit one or two of those hell waits even Koromo would get thrown off her game.
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Old 2009-07-25, 07:24   Link #1682
DmonHiro
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Now I SO want a video game with these charatcers. BUt I want all the characters to pull of their respective hax as well. It would be awesome to try and beat those powers.
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Old 2009-07-25, 07:50   Link #1683
Peanutbutter
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Saki DVD Vol 1 has some pretty interesting extras.

There's a 2 hour video of seiyuus of Saki, Mako, Hisa and Tacos really playing 2 East Rounds, complete with scoreboards, lots of chatting and stuff. If only I can understand what they said.
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Old 2009-07-25, 07:57   Link #1684
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peanutbutter003 View Post
Saki DVD Vol 1 has some pretty interesting extras.

There's a 2 hour video of seiyuus of Saki, Mako, Hisa and Tacos really playing 2 East Rounds, complete with scoreboards, lots of chatting and stuff. If only I can understand what they said.
Oooh, who won? I bet that Hisa's seiyuu would win (no reason).

And wait... 2 hours?! How do they fit that on the DVD without sacrificing the video quality? Or is a separate disc?
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Old 2009-07-25, 08:08   Link #1685
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We know Kana can get huge hands but she can't quite finish them and gets screwed over multiple times because she gets too eager

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Originally Posted by Spectrum View Post
Except that Tier lists are always based on overall matchups rather than any given individual performance.

You don't say Noel is bottom tier just because she gets wrecked by Tager, for example (to borrow from BlazBlue).

Because, yes, most of our on-screen data is the final round, that means we have to/should place a non-trivial weight to some of the Informed Abilities, such as Touka.
That's a rather silly comparison

We know Noel isn't bottom tier because people can choose to play her against other characters and estimate her position from that. Not to mention tiers in fighting games are even less of a factor than...say anime powerlevel. If you follow BlazBlue I'm sure you've seen Mike Z's play with Tager in tournaments, despite Tager's being the lowest tier character (mostly due to awful matchups with the big 3)

We can't just pick up a phone and tell Saki, Mihoko, Momo and Hajime to play a few rounds of mahjong to see who's better. The anime/manga is all we have to go by and there are very few instances of direct comparisons being made outside of Saki's school, so you have to go with what went down in the tournament. Or you can go with hype (or as you call it: informed abilities) which is often grossly influenced by persona bias
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Old 2009-07-25, 08:12   Link #1686
Peanutbutter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quarkboy View Post
Oooh, who won? I bet that Hisa's seiyuu would win (no reason).

And wait... 2 hours?! How do they fit that on the DVD without sacrificing the video quality? Or is a separate disc?
Mako won the first round. Saki won the second round. Overall, Mako won. (And I find Itou Shizuka (Hisa) pretty... )

Yeah, it's 2 hours. As to how the whole thing fits into the DVD, I'm not sure. I just grabbed the entire thing from the Chinese subbers.
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Old 2009-07-25, 08:36   Link #1687
Spectrum
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fishbait View Post
That's a rather silly comparison

We know Noel isn't bottom tier because people can choose to play her against other characters and estimate her position from that. Not to mention tiers in fighting games are even less of a factor than...say anime powerlevel. If you follow BlazBlue I'm sure you've seen Mike Z's play with Tager in tournaments, despite Tager's being the lowest tier character (mostly due to awful matchups with the big 3)

We can't just pick up a phone and tell Saki, Mihoko, Momo and Hajime to play a few rounds of mahjong to see who's better. The anime/manga is all we have to go by and there are very few instances of direct comparisons being made outside of Saki's school, so you have to go with what went down in the tournament. Or you can go with hype (or as you call it: informed abilities) which is often grossly influenced by persona bias
That was where I was leaning, actually. I mean, we don't get info like Touka having high tenpai win percentage in nationals frivolously. We have to use what's available to us. =X
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Old 2009-07-25, 11:00   Link #1688
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I know making a tier of power level is subjective and has bias. This is further compounded by the fact that if the author wished it, the beginner can actually win against an S-class person like Koromo or Saki if the plot calls for it...
But, making a tier list is still possible from the tournament and by deductive reasoning. That and I'm ridiculously bored has nothing to do with it... :heh

Quote:
S - Rank ( God Tier )
The person in this tier is so powerful that it is almost impossible to beat them except another S rank.

Koromo - as Koromo has shown no one in the table can currently touch her or even impede her progress. I would go further and suggest that no one in the tournament can stop her, even Momo stealth is useless to Koromo. Since well invisible or not, Koromo's haitei is still there and will stop any player for declaring tenpai. Kazekoshi's Mihoko will also receive the same fate.

Saki - technically the only one in the tournament who has a chance to stop Koromo. If I look at Saki's ability objectively, she is a monster class player. I don't think Saki on the previous episode has shown her true abilities. The bad news, Koromo is probably the worse match-up against Saki who just recently learned that mahjong can be actually fun, do not like competitive play, and ridiculously sensitive to another's aura which Koromo represents... Ouch Hell, it is actually debatable if Saki actually knows how to play to win or even want to ...
I don't think anyone will contest this one... Koromo and Saki playing at full power almost means sure win by just looking at their skills unless they are playing against each other.
Btw, this doesn't mean that the person below them cannot make a decent fight to win, but, ultimately they'll win in the end barring any complications.

The A's rank
To make the ranking flexible, I will be measuring the characters overall strength and looking at how they will do against another player. The S rank is another plateau of strength compared to A rank thus the gap between someone who has an AAA is large compared to an S rank but the gap between AAA and say AA is small.
To summarize an S to an AAA is like a large jump in ability while an AA to an AAA is like step up.

Tier AAA
Saki - (current) The level that Saki actually shows right now. Pulling a tsumo after a kong whenever you want or barring any complications like cough - koromo's aura- cough. Even though, not playing in full potential, she shows a good defense and a decent reading of the opponents' hand.

Tier AA
R
Quote:
Mihoko - has been implied to have stopped Touka, have actually defeated Jun and the current best member of Kazekoshi. Her ability to read the flow of the game and hide herself from the flow can blindside opponents. Seems to have a good head on her shoulder since she is usually one of the first to realize the unexpected elements in the tournament from a relatively few clues i.e. Saki being a good player, Hisa's style of play, etc.

Hisa - implied to have beaten or at the very least have given Mihoko a hard time when they last faced. A really good strategist and tactician capable of mind screwing ones opponent. Her style of play will usually throw everyone off and sow confusion.
The two captains ( Hisa and Mihoko) are in the AAA level. They seems to have good intuition - both of them are the first to realize what is going on at the game and not blinded by what they expect to happen. Their style of play is also both unconventional and will be unnerving to their opponents in different ways of course.

Quote:
Of all the players we've seen so far, actually, Hisa would be the most suited when it comes to playing Koromo.

That's because if you recall, Koromo's "can't get to tenpai" powers only work if you play somewhat logically. Yumi managed to get tenpai by playing erratically that one hand, so Hisa, who often chooses odds defying waits and other silliness, might be able to get tenpai against Koromo.
Quark-san, as much as I enjoy Hisa's style of play, Koromo will still win. Playing back that scene with Yumi-san, there is a hint that Yumi played right in Koromo's trap. Koromo actually smirked before calling ron if memory served right as if she knew that Yumi will do this.
If Hisa will play her odd defying waits, it can work, and Koromo will start targeting her. But, ultimately, I don't think it will work since Koromo's luck is greater than Hisa's thus nullifying Hisa's ability or they can cancel each other out which will put our beloved president in bad position by the nature of the bad waits.
Of course, it is possible that Hisa can bluff or intimidate Koromo but, that only has a small chance of happening...

Quote:
Nodoka - implied to have defeated Hisa or at least equal to her. She is a very solid player undeterred by low point or high and most of the players' special skills doesn't work or lose effectiveness when playing against her.
Ah... in any case anyone is wondering Nodoka will also lose against Koromo. Her online mahjong style may shield her from Koromo's ability to not allow any player to form a tenpai. But, it is also her weakness... I think someone has mentioned this but Nodoka's playing style is inflexible... By playing logically a player can easily target and predict you and Nodoka's playing style is pure logic. Koromo can ron her easily.

Quote:
Yumi - a player that is shown to be a good tactician capable of adjusting to any situation. Unfortunately, she is currently facing full powered monster player called Koromo.
Well, at least this one is solved. The battle between Yumi and Koromo is actually happening... . I put her in this tier for her amazing ability to adjust and assess the situation.

Quote:
Momoko - her stealth ability will be useful against any opponent, though it is doubtful if it will work against S-class who can feel auras. Except Nodoka and the S-class players, her ability will be work effectively after all how the hell do you fight something that you can't see?
Hmm... this one is really self-explanatory.

Quote:
Rank A
Touka - loses against Momo and Nodoka, implied to lose to Mihako. I think she can actually be an AAA class player if you she can tame her overconfidence, but then again she won't be Touka then.

Jun - despite losing to Mihoko, it was implied that she managed to turn an opponent's point from 100,000 to 0. Then, giving Ryumonbuchi the win on the first round.

Hajime - seems to be a pretty solid player. If the camera isn't there she can use slight of hand (jk ) Manage to gain points despite Hisa's mind screwing, that take guts and intuition especially since she seems to have a phobia to anything that resembles Koromo's style of play.

Kana - err... really hard to judge. She is currently facing Koromo and seems to have a need to prove herself that screws her better judgement. ( I'm giving her the benefit of the doubt )
I don't think I have anything to change in this tier.

Rank B
Mako - being able to remember and apply the experience of a thousand mahjong game or more is good. But, has a flaw since it is based on experience if Mako has not seen it before she can't adjust.

Kanbara - err... I agree with Spectrum ... she gets the benefit of the doubt. She was against Hisa who was vastly superior to her and Hajime who is somewhat skilled. She clearly lose but, hey she didn't lose that much point compared to the girl from Kazekoshi.

Tomoki- implied to have the same ability as Mako and is part of Ryumonbuchi. Really don't know how to rank her.

Yuuki - is a reasonably good player. Good at the beginning but falters at the end and seem to be bad at reading the atmosphere. Just like Mako, had a bad match-up.

The person who played after Mihoko - managed to hold onto the lead even with Kaori's unexpected addition.

C -rank
The ones who played against Hisa and Nodoka from Kazekoshi.
The first person who played for Tsuruga.

D- rank
Kaori - err technically she don't know what she is doing. But, that could be an asset to those who over think their moves or base their moves on a sensible progression. And hey, we have heard the term beginner rank before...
Despite this, I put her in D rank because she won't be a beginner for long and thus this asset skill will fade if she wants to be serious in mahjong.

Phew... I think I finally got everything. Feel free to contest anything.
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Old 2009-07-25, 11:35   Link #1689
Spectrum
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Holy wall of text. Not going to respond fully, but...
Quote:
Originally Posted by night_sentinel View Post
Quark-san, as much as I enjoy Hisa's style of play, Koromo will still win. Playing back that scene with Yumi-san, there is a hint that Yumi played right in Koromo's trap. Koromo actually smirked before calling ron if memory served right as if she knew that Yumi will do this.
If Hisa will play her odd defying waits, it can work, and Koromo will start targeting her. But, ultimately, I don't think it will work since Koromo's luck is greater than Hisa's thus nullifying Hisa's ability or they can cancel each other out which will put our beloved president in bad position by the nature of the bad waits.
Of course, it is possible that Hisa can bluff or intimidate Koromo but, that only has a small chance of happening...
I *think* you're referring to Kana here, not Yumi? You're referring to the match right after Yumi ron Kana with 7 pairs? Koromo called ron on Kana the hand after. Not entirely sure who's playing into her hand there. I think it's giving her wayyyyy too much credit, even with hax powers, to say that she's letting another player get into tenpai and win because she knows that person will definitely be winning off someone else that round.

Quote:
Originally Posted by night_sentinel View Post
Ah... in any case anyone is wondering Nodoka will also lose against Koromo. Her online mahjong style may shield her from Koromo's ability to not allow any player to form a tenpai. But, it is also her weakness... I think someone has mentioned this but Nodoka's playing style is inflexible... By playing logically a player can easily target and predict you and Nodoka's playing style is pure logic. Koromo can ron her easily.
I can't agree with the logic, but I can agree with the conclusion. If that makes any sense. Pure logical play like Nodoka's is ultimate normal defense. Is there some predictability? Yes, but it's not easily targetable. You have to build a ridiculous hand full of bad waits and wait for them to throw what would, in any normal situation, be considered a safe tile.

But Koromo still ron her because Koromo hax extends to table-wide tile manip. =X

Quote:
Originally Posted by night_sentinel View Post
Yuuki - is a reasonably good player. Good at the beginning but falters at the end and seem to be bad at reading the atmosphere. Just like Mako, had a bad match-up.
Is she actually a good player? I don't know. It seems she's heavily momentum based with no backup strategy. If she can't hold onto the dealer's seat and rack up a few wins, she's useless overall. Even with landing her special, she seems only 'good' on the round.
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Old 2009-07-25, 12:34   Link #1690
night_sentinel
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Hmm... I think I accidentally exaggerated Koromo's hax ability ... But, I still believe that the conclusion would still be the same though it won't be as easy as I described...

About Yuuki, I think her char developed a bit during the match since she played to the fullest for the whole match. But, we can actually put her in C rank and then bump down the remaining person previously in C to D along with Kaori.

Btw, how do you guys make the "Originally posted by Spectrum" to appear? Sorry for being a bit noob about it.
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Old 2009-07-25, 12:41   Link #1691
Proto
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[quote=original poster]proto rules[/quote]

Just like that. Or you can use the little quote buttons you can find in every post, which also have the advantage of automatically including the link for you. Personally I prefer the manual way.
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Old 2009-07-25, 14:09   Link #1692
bayoab
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peanutbutter003 View Post
Saki DVD Vol 1 has some pretty interesting extras.

There's a 2 hour video of seiyuus of Saki, Mako, Hisa and Tacos really playing 2 East Rounds, complete with scoreboards, lots of chatting and stuff. If only I can understand what they said.
It's really extremely boring for the most part. They play pretty slowly and the topics they talk about are yawns for the most part.
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Old 2009-07-25, 14:37   Link #1693
Spectrum
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Quote:
Originally Posted by night_sentinel View Post
Hmm... I think I accidentally exaggerated Koromo's hax ability ... But, I still believe that the conclusion would still be the same though it won't be as easy as I described...
Well the thing is, if we give her enough hax to do the things you claim (or just ridiculous things in general), she conceivably has enough hax to just give herself a heavenly hand every round. Why bother playing? It's a boring discussion at that point.

There has to be a limit on what she can do.
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Old 2009-07-25, 16:05   Link #1694
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If we are serious about tiers in Saki, Kana should've been tier F.
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Old 2009-07-25, 16:34   Link #1695
tjalorak
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sister Princess View Post
If we are serious about tiers in Saki, Kana should've been tier F.
LOL. That's cruel.
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Old 2009-07-25, 17:09   Link #1696
Eisdrache
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Kana is probably the 2nd best player in Kazekoshi's team. Its impossible for her to be tier F. Unless I just got trolled.
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Old 2009-07-25, 17:33   Link #1697
Spectrum
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eisdrache View Post
Kana is probably the 2nd best player in Kazekoshi's team. Its impossible for her to be tier F. Unless I just got trolled.
The only tiers people really care about:
Nodoka: FF
Kana: A
Momoko: D
Yumi: C
Saki: A? B?
Yuuki: A

etc



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Old 2009-07-25, 17:47   Link #1698
Sister Princess
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eisdrache View Post
Kana is probably the 2nd best player in Kazekoshi's team. Its impossible for her to be tier F. Unless I just got trolled.
The original material make her look weak. What else can I say?
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Old 2009-07-25, 17:54   Link #1699
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Here is a try at my own list, in a roleplaying format. Each player has three basic attributes and any number of special abilities. The basic attributes are Skill, Willpower and Luck (although some players don't use this attribute).

Willpower is the ability to tap into supernatural abilities and senses that isn't possible for ordinary humans. All special abilities work by willpower. The more willpower a character has, the greater the power or likelyhood of a special ability to function. However, any special ability is also contested by the willpower of other players. Some special abilities also get bonuses vs other abilities. These bonuses are not included below and instead has to be figured out on a case by case basis. Finally, willpower is also modified by the mood of the player.

Note, that I was pretty generous on the ratings, but remember that these are the finals, so there shouldn't really be many weak players left. I also ignored the players who simply didn't seem to have any real special abilities.

Name Skill/Willpower/Luck
Special Skill: Description

-------------
Miyanaga Saki 4/5
Monster: Any test on luck is done using willpower. Has supernatural knowledge and power over the flow of the game.
Timid Nature: Extra reduction of willpower while afraid, but also has the abilitiy to push past her natural boundries while calm.

Amae Koromo 4/5
Monster: Any test on luck is done using willpower. Has supernatural knowledge and power over the flow of the game.

Harumura Nodoka 5/5
Nodochi Mode: Increases skill and negates opponent special abilities and luck

Fukuji Mihoko 5/5
True Vision: Negates opponent abilities and bends them to the user's will.

---------------

Takei Hisa 5/4
Bad Wait: The game flows such that the user has an increased chance of winning on bad waits.

Kajiki Yumi 5/4
Demon Hunter: Has the abilitiy to instinctivly and through obeservation sense the supernatural and counter it.

Touyoko Momo 5/4
Stealth: Makes opponents disregard discards.

Ikeda Kana 3/5/3
Big winner: Supernatural luck when it comes to forming high yaku hands. (including dora indicators).
Shrewd Cat: Highly resistant to having her own abilities reduced, but also unable to negate opponent abilities.

Inoue Jun 4/4
Sense Flow: Allows user to sense where the game is heading.

----------------
Ryuumonbuchi Touka 5/3
Monster relative: Random boosts of abillity and luck when the user feels a real need for it.

Kunihiro Hajime 5/3
Magician: Increased physical senses and dexterity.

Senou Kaori 1/4/5
Beginner's Luck: Any test on skill is done using luck instead

----------------

Kataoka Yuuki 3/3/2
Taco Power: Increases luck drastically after consuming a Taco.

Someya Mako 4/3
Photographic memory: Allows the user to make decisions by comparing previously watched games to the current one.

--------------------

Some explanation on my groupings. In the top rank I only have players with very strong willpower, who either are monsters or are able to negate monsters when at full strength.

In the second rank, I included Kana for a reason. She seems to have a huge ability to form valuable hands. She could probably win against most players that don't possess the flow control that the two monsters she are facing right now does. In a way, Kana has the strongest willpower in the series. It is just that she lacks self confidence right now which is bringing her down.

The third tier belongs to players who is doing well, but lack in some way or another. Touka and Hajime are skilled players, but they lack the willpower to compete on a higher level. Kaori's beginner's luck is incredible, but it will fail against many special powers, and when it does she has no backup.

Finally, Yuuki and Mako gets put at the bottom, together with some of the players that I didn't list here. The reason is simple. They lack the willpower needed to compete vs other abilities, and their Mahjong skills aren't any special.
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Old 2009-07-25, 19:36   Link #1700
Sindas
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Lol, this discussion as really derailed into a power level one...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spectrum View Post
The only tiers people really care about:
Nodoka: FF
Kana: A
Momoko: D
Yumi: C
Saki: A? B?
Yuuki: A

etc



I agree those are the most important ones.

EDIT: I guess Saki is B, if she's A then Yuuki is AA...
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