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Old 2009-09-27, 23:08   Link #2281
Zwei
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hari Michiru View Post
Exactly. I'm saying that it isn't suitable for the ANIME, because there must of been SCENES that have been LEFT OUT to BUILD UP to the wedding.

You would have known this if you read what I wrote in brackets.
I read what you wrote in the brackets, but you failed to give me enough reason why it should have been left out, when like I said, half the plot resolved around a girl who thought got dumped.
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Old 2009-09-27, 23:12   Link #2282
Hari Michiru
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Originally Posted by Zwei View Post
I'v read what you wrote in the backets, but you failed to give me enough reason why it should have been left out, when like I said, half the plot resolved around a girl who thought got dumped.
Isn't that over-simplifying things? Even if it is as you say, "a girl got dumped" plot actually had build up to it, unless you soaked your eyes in acid and didn't see the Reiji abandonment part and the Cal scenes before it. The wedding, however, is completely out in the left field, because there weren't enough scenes in the ANIME (not VN) to build up to the wedding.

Do you still not get it?
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Old 2009-09-27, 23:15   Link #2283
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Originally Posted by Hari Michiru View Post
Isn't that over-simplifying things? Even if it is as you say, "a girl got dumped" plot actually had build up to it, unless you soaked your eyes in acid and didn't see the Reiji abandonment part and the Cal scenes before it. The wedding, however, is completely out in the left field, because there weren't enough scenes in the ANIME (not VN) to build up to the wedding.

Do you still not get it?
I don't get why bring up the "Reiji abandonment part" where it was already explained in about 30 pages.

So, what scenes do you suggest before it builds up to the wedding scene? Have you even played the game? The wedding scene was obviously necessary to point us viewers that Reiji choose Elen and they intended to be together till death. It was also a necessary to break out this "brother-sister" fake relationship they were playing.
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Old 2009-09-27, 23:16   Link #2284
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Originally Posted by Lady Orihime View Post
So she was smiling and laughing because the gunman was coming up to kill her? There's no logic in that either, especially after she says "These memories are enough for me to continue living".
Unless we are supposed to believe that once she turned around and sees the gunman, without knowing Reiji was dead (since he's in a different area), and in the course of a few seconds, she happily recants her monologue about be able to continue living, and accepts someone coming to kill her? I don't think so. Elen would have fought tooth and nail to make sure Reiji was safe before letting anything happen to her.
Yep, she was when you take in that she was told Reiji that they didn't need to go any further that she was happy and the memories with him were enough. If the memories were enough for here to live with then she wouldn't mind die as long as she still had them. I think she could gather he was dead or at least that she was not going to live so she accepted that fate. We see from her talk with SM that she was expecting to join in him hell soon enough after.



Quote:
The fortune teller in the beginning, L.A., etc.

Maybe you just don't want to see what's in front of you?

Do I really have to go into PS and literally point things out?

How much of her eyes are showing are the same in both pictures
I did check out El Cazador and you're right they did do it there but I stand by the fact there is absolutely no difference in Cal eyes. She has a softer expression and her eyes are half closed but no pupil fading at all. In the end she just closes her eyes and dies. You can do whatever want to in PS I'm not going to stop you but the difference you see just isn't there. If she died with her eyes open and the pupils faded out like in El cazador I might agree with you but that just did not happen.
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Old 2009-09-27, 23:18   Link #2285
Hari Michiru
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Originally Posted by Zwei View Post
I don't get why bring up the "Reiji abandonment part" where it was already explained in about 30 pages.
I'm not trying to rekindle an old arugment; I'm just simplifying things.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zwei View Post
So, what scenes do you suggest before it builds up to the wedding scene? Have you even played the game? The wedding scene was obviously necessary to point us viewers that Reiji choose Elen and they intended to be together till death. It was also a necessary to break out this "brother-sister" fake relationship they were playing.
I think I've stated I haven't played the game before (proof that you haven't read my posts properly). I don't know what scenes that should put in, but they should put in SOMETHING before having a wedding scene. It would have seemed so random and fanservice-like to just throw it in with the mood that the ANIME (remember, not game) had set up in the past 25 episodes.
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Old 2009-09-27, 23:21   Link #2286
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hari Michiru View Post
I'm not trying to rekindle an old arugment; I'm just simplifying things.



I think I've stated I haven't played the game before (proof that you haven't read my posts properly). I don't know what scenes that should put in, but they should put in SOMETHING before having a wedding scene. It would have seemed so random and fanservice-like to just throw it in with the mood that the ANIME (remember, not game) had set up in the past 25 episodes.
Then we can't really debate since I played the game and you haven't. I think if I haven't played the game, Reiji's death wouldn't have really affected me that much, and I would probably be a Cal fan.
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Old 2009-09-27, 23:23   Link #2287
Hari Michiru
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Then we can't really debate since I played the game and you haven't. I think if I haven't played the game, Reiji's death wouldn't have really affected me that much, and I would probably be a Cal fan.
Yup, that's what I am.

I'm just stating that would be strange in the anime, since this is, the anime thread.
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Old 2009-09-27, 23:24   Link #2288
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A totally happy ending did not seem right for this story. I saw the ending and felt satisfied; it fits the theme.
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Old 2009-09-27, 23:24   Link #2289
Hari Michiru
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A totally happy ending did not seem right for this story. I saw the ending and felt satisfied; it fits the theme.
Yeah, although I'm still sad that Cal died. </3
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Old 2009-09-27, 23:27   Link #2290
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At least, she was still useful even in her death(refers to the scene where Reiji killed one of the sisters).

Inferno will probably end up getting destroyed in over 1-2 years, having lost all their sources and top notch assassins.
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Old 2009-09-27, 23:40   Link #2291
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Cal story is she "born" with tainted hands of Reiji and by his hand she will "return" to him. Despite his grief, Reiji conscience is somewhat eased with knowledge that Cal will not go on killing and lived his erstwhile empty life during his time in Inferno. Her death is not in vain, she is free from path of no return and served as closure to Reiji's deep anguish as much as her's.

The theme of this story always revolves around there is always a consequence for any path despite who you are, Cal and anime unique Reiji's tragic last exit meant to show this.

Reiji succeed in saving Elen so his "debt" to her is done. But he can't escape his past so the last bullet is his absolution for his other horrible deeds. He is free but at the cost of his life.

Afterall, there is no more purpose of living for Cal and Reiji, to be honest. In VN where Cal is the focus, they both still living the path of blood in the end, becoming a modern version of Bonnie and Clyde which I don't consider as quality living.

That's why I enjoyed the VN.
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Old 2009-09-27, 23:51   Link #2292
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But this anime is in the Elen game pathway so we shouldn't have to put up with an unknown assassin or cart or bullet at the end. Blah, blah, blah....

Bee Train should have screwed around with an original title and kept to the source game material for this one.

I'm in the "Reiji is alive and wounded" line waving my flag for the next cart since he didn't get to see her smile yet.

Another forum brought up the novels. So how did they end? A poster was thinking that the novels were a source for this ending. I hope this isn't the case since this was suppose to be a game adaptation. (Hmm... wiki says that it's only 1 volume of the manga out right now. So that idea fell thru.)
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Old 2009-09-28, 00:09   Link #2293
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AFAIK, as mentar said, the writer of VN himself penned the story for anime series. So I felt that the writer decided to give a twist in the end because he knew that many readers of VN will watch this adaptation. He did not want to copy and paste the story, I supposed.

But the ending is open for interpretation, I think Reiji is dead on plains of Mongolia while other forum people think he is wounded. Different strokes for different folks, I suppose.
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Old 2009-09-28, 00:13   Link #2294
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The manga seems nice. If only I can buy it in english....

Spoiler:

Spoiler:


2 volumes are currently out, and it's still on going.
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Old 2009-09-28, 00:20   Link #2295
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Originally Posted by stormy001_M1A2 View Post
AFAIK, as mentar said, the writer of VN himself penned the story for anime series. So I felt that the writer decided to give a twist in the end because he knew that many readers of VN will watch this adaptation. He did not want to copy and paste the story, I supposed.
The writer for the original game worked on the anime too, so I'm sure he had a say in how the story was resolved, but he wasn't the only one on staff. Here's a quick list of the writers involved, assuming it's accurate.

Quote:
Series Composition:
Yousuke Kuroda

Screenplay:
Gen Urobuchi
Hideki Shirane
Kazuho Hyodo
Noboru Kimura
Shogo Yasukawa
Tatsuya Takahashi
Yousuke Kuroda
Yukihito Nonaka

Original Scenario:
Gen Urobuchi
http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/ency...e.php?id=10541

From a purely personal perspective though, I would assume that your point probably still stands.
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Old 2009-09-28, 00:20   Link #2296
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Cal and Ein reflected 2 different philosophy of gunfighting, Cal is very flashy and used shitloads of firepower; Ein is precise and decisive. Even their weapons reflected their thinking.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xander View Post
The writer for the original game worked on the anime too, so I'm sure he had a say in how the story was resolved, but he wasn't the only one on staff. Here's a quick list of the writers involved, assuming it's accurate.



http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/ency...e.php?id=10541

From a purely personal perspective though, I would say that your point probably still stands.
Maybe, perhaps other writers wanted a more mainstream story? Who knows.
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Old 2009-09-28, 00:25   Link #2297
orion
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Originally Posted by stormy001_M1A2 View Post
AFAIK, as mentar said, the writer of VN himself penned the story for anime series. So I felt that the writer decided to give a twist in the end because he knew that many readers of VN will watch this adaptation. He did not want to copy and paste the story, I supposed.
Most animators should know that the VN crowd wants the game scenario done faithfully. This isn't a new concept.

KyoAni had to assure a lot of fans with Kanon's adaptation IIRC. You'd think they (Bee Train/Nitroplus) would have remembered.
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Old 2009-09-28, 00:29   Link #2298
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Originally Posted by stormy001_M1A2 View Post
Maybe, perhaps other writers wanted a more mainstream story? Who knows.
You could also turn that idea around and say they wouldn't have dared to make any changes without his previous authorization, considering he was on staff, so his presence may have directly influenced the outcome in that way.

It wouldn't be the first nor the last time that an author could be much more flexible than the fans of his work.
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Old 2009-09-28, 00:33   Link #2299
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Urobuchi wrote three episodes: 6, 18, and 25. Lead writer and story planner was Yousuke Kuroda, who penned Madlax and Gundam 00. However, Urobuchi's participation does suggest that he approved whatever Mashimo and Kuroda proposed.

I think we have to stop thinking about anime as something created by a single entity. In most cases, the directors and writers (who are much more influential in determining a show's execution) don't even work for the anime studio, so how can we attribute success or failure to a single company?

Quote:
Most animators should know that the VN crowd wants the game scenario done faithfully.
It isn't the ideal direction in every case -> much depends on who's handling the adaptation, the allocated budget, and the size of the existing fanbase.

Even if it pisses some fans off, a rearrangement with sparks of creativity can turn out better than a rigid adaptation that some bored director/writer phoned in. If changes can motivate the staff, then so be it.
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Old 2009-09-28, 00:34   Link #2300
orion
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Originally Posted by Xander View Post
You could also turn that idea around and say they wouldn't have dared to make any changes without his previous authorization, considering he was on staff, so his presence may have directly influenced the outcome in that way.

It wouldn't be the first nor the last time that an author could be more flexible than the fans of his work.
True. Just look at Dragonball Evolution.

He was prob thinking about the exposure and not the backlash.

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