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Old 2009-08-22, 17:46   Link #1241
orion
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Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
But that doesn't change tha fact that she doesn't wear one in the eyecatches, and the simbolism is there.
I know. I was just mentioning the masks because I find the ED animation fascinating. I agree with your symbolism explanation actually.

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Originally Posted by Zwei View Post
The reason she doesn't wear the mask is because she just doesn't feel like it just like Reiji after his showdown with Sycthe, he was the new Phantom 6 months later but he never wore a mask. As I said before Cal isn't under Sycthe control yet...like Ein was.
Elen didn't wear a mask at all times either when she was Ein. It's the eyecatch symbolisn we're talking about here.

Drei is under SM's control. It's just more subtle. He points her in one direction and she goes like a rabid animal looking for the meal.

SM still wants Reiji back imo. To get Reiji back, you have to kill off Elen as Elen is the reason why Reiji is still running. Therfore, Drei goes after Elen first. (thinking that Elen stole Reiji from her probably) With all things equal, Reiji destroys Drei and with no place to go he returns to Inferno. SM gets what he wants. At the least, it ends in a draw and SM still wins imo. (like the previous round when SM told Elen to kill Reijji) *just an hypothesis*

Drei has inherited the Elen spot. Remember that little lecture that SM gave Elen in ep. 19 7:46-8:50 before sending her off to kill Reiji. It applies here too imo. Not all scars are physical ones.
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Last edited by orion; 2009-08-22 at 18:04.
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Old 2009-08-22, 17:54   Link #1242
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Originally Posted by Spinner187 View Post
But she actual saying "Chinese" in english. I have no clue how they translate that into "ch**k".
Because she's sneering as she's saying it, as if to imply he's lower than her because she's American and he's Chinese.

Quote:
Originally Posted by miroku2192 View Post
Like when it was translated into "Damnit!" when Cal first appears on bike, she actually said, "She...!" or "HER!..."
Doesn't she just say "Ano", as in "That..."? Same basic thing though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mentar View Post
Due to the sneering pronunciation it was decided to localize. It was clearly intended to be a slur.
See, it's you always saying things I'm thinking before me that had some of my friends thinking you were me before I corrected them.
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Old 2009-08-22, 17:55   Link #1243
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Originally Posted by orion View Post
I know. I was just mentioning the masks because I find the ED animation fascinating. I agree with your symbolism explanation actually.
Got it. Personally, I didn't like the ED animation that much (I didn't dislike it though), but I loved the music. I'm definitely getting that single when it's out.
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Old 2009-08-22, 17:56   Link #1244
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From racial slurs to eyecatches huh? This thread is sure movin' fast.

Discussing the latter, I think it's simply to show the fundamental difference between all of the Phantoms. Both Ein and Zwei undertake a completely different mindframe when they're out on the job, donning a persona mask if you will as they go out and kill. Drei on the other hand acts exactly the same no matter what she's doing, there is no shift in her eyes like with Ein or Zwei and there is no separation between the underworld life & everyday life for her.
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Old 2009-08-22, 18:01   Link #1245
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"another anime"?? You really don't know what The Phantom of the Opera is? Just so you know, the masks are often associated with Phantoms in general because of The Phantom of the Opera.
Phantom of Opera title is used often these days and I heard that some anime of that name was also made.

However, the masks are still not the ONLY symbol. Phantom is used as a word for ghosts as well and ghosts and phantoms are often associated with hiding and shadows. And my post there to the original poster was to say that just because she doesn't have a mask does not mean that it doesn't mean that she can't be considered a Phantom and explain the reason why she might not have a mask in the eyecather.

Quote:
SM still wants Reiji back imo. To get Reiji back, you have to kill off Elen as Elen is the reason why Reiji is still running. Therfore, Drei goes after Elen first. (thinking that Elen stole Reiji from her probably) With all things equal, Reiji destroys Drei and with no place to go he returns to Inferno. SM gets what he wants. At the least, it ends in a draw and SM still wins imo. (like the previous round when SM told Elen to kill Reijji) *just an hypothesis*
Yes, I agree, that would be possible. Zwei has already been confirmed by Inferno to be better then Ein and he ceartanly fits the role of an Inferno's assasin better then Drei (who is just too chaotic... not really a type of assasins that Inferno likes).

Spoiler for Alternative VN path and ending:


Quote:
From racial slurs to eyecatches huh? This thread is sure movin' fast
Indeed. You go drink a glass of water, and five new posts are waiting for you to read them.
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Last edited by Nayrael; 2009-08-22 at 18:25.
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Old 2009-08-22, 18:03   Link #1246
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Originally Posted by GDB View Post
Doesn't she just say "Ano", as in "That..."? Same basic thing though.
Well, to be exact, Lizzie cursed "Aitsu!" which is a derogatory way to address a third person. I guess "Damn her!" would have been an alternative, but I had no problem with a simple "Damn" either, in this context.
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Old 2009-08-22, 18:23   Link #1247
orion
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Originally Posted by Soraya21 View Post
From racial slurs to eyecatches huh? This thread is sure movin' fast.

Discussing the latter, I think it's simply to show the fundamental difference between all of the Phantoms. Both Ein and Zwei undertake a completely different mindframe when they're out on the job, donning a persona mask if you will as they go out and kill. Drei on the other hand acts exactly the same no matter what she's doing, there is no shift in her eyes like with Ein or Zwei and there is no separation between the underworld life & everyday life for her.
Yeah, the other 2 needed to distance themselves and have a second persona to store their skills like Shiki has in Kara no Kyoukai. Drei has no problems with killing and it shows how far she's been corrupted. But that's not the symbolism we're talking about with regards to the eyecatches. Even her positioning in the eyecatch is not what a Phantom would do.

----

I still think that Elen is better. She thinks one step ahead. Reiji is just going with the flow. Even during the countersnipe operation, he only thought about the obvious position and not the stellar "Wanted" position.

Elen prob could have killed SM in a crowd imo.
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Old 2009-08-22, 18:50   Link #1248
miroku2192
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Quote:
Originally Posted by orion View Post
Yeah, the other 2 needed to distance themselves and have a second persona to store their skills like Shiki has in Kara no Kyoukai. Drei has no problems with killing and it shows how far she's been corrupted. But that's not the symbolism we're talking about with regards to the eyecatches. Even her positioning in the eyecatch is not what a Phantom would do.

----

I still think that Elen is better. She thinks one step ahead. Reiji is just going with the flow. Even during the countersnipe operation, he only thought about the obvious position and not the stellar "Wanted" position.

Elen prob could have killed SM in a crowd imo.
I think Elen is generally a better "thinker"..in that she pretty much went straight to the church, whereas Reiji took a bit longer...then again it might be harder for him to know since he didn't know it was a bullet in the envelope, but im assuming he knew what she meant...which does seem to point that reiji is a tad bit slower (thinking wise) than elen.

p.s. - where do you live? There's so much taiyuki i'd love to share one with you :X
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Old 2009-08-22, 18:54   Link #1249
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Originally Posted by orion
I still think that Elen is better. She thinks one step ahead. Reiji is just going with the flow.
I'd agree that Ellen has proven to think the best (Sniper shot) but she just doesn't have a killing Intent, which Scythe says is needed to be the perfect Phantom. So while she might have the best mind for the job, she'll never be able to fit Scythe perfect vision of a Phantom. She will always need to be Directly controlled.

Rejij fits SM role the best, Drei has the Drive to Kill people but no Control. While Ellen has Control though no Drive, and while Reiji has both he thinks too much. But with Drei and Ellen gone I think SM would think that he'll be able to get Reiji back.
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Old 2009-08-22, 19:04   Link #1250
orion
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Originally Posted by miroku2192 View Post
I think Elen is generally a better "thinker"..in that she pretty much went straight to the church, whereas Reiji took a bit longer...then again it might be harder for him to know since he didn't know it was a bullet in the envelope, but im assuming he knew what she meant...which does seem to point that reiji is a tad bit slower (thinking wise) than elen.

p.s. - where do you live? There's so much taiyuki i'd love to share one with you :X
In the midwest. No Chinatown etc. Like I said, it's mail or nothing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by evil-samurai View Post
Rejij fits SM role the best, Drei has the Drive to Kill people but no Control. While Ellen has Control though no Drive, and while Reiji has both he thinks too much. But with Drei and Ellen gone I think SM would think that he'll be able to get Reiji back.
Elen's faster in the preview. If she had just pulled the trigger back then... but Reiji would have been sad

Elen has Drive if her life is in jeopardy, most people do. If she's protecting Reiji, that Drive will kick in. Reiji's Drive was actually eating him away mentally. That's not good either. She's just been discounted because she willingly left SM for Reiji twice. ( I applaud her for falling in love.) SM is just being a sore loser imo.
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Old 2009-08-22, 19:09   Link #1251
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Originally Posted by Zwei View Post
The reason she doesn't wear the mask is because she just doesn't feel like it just like Reiji after his showdown with Sycthe, he was the new Phantom 6 months later but he never wore a mask, he wore glasses for his disguise in episode 14 kinda. As I said before Cal isn't under Sycthe control yet...like Ein was.
Well.. let me put it this way

I don't think she's a Phantom nor was she ever meant to be one. Yes, Scythe's real project was those other girls with masks in the OP and earlier episodes

Cal is just an experiment in doing things RADICALLY different

What came into being after all of that was not a Phantom, but rather a Poltergeist
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Old 2009-08-22, 19:25   Link #1252
orion
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SM pointing Drei in Elen's direction was evil.

Elen can't really kill Drei because it would make Reiji sad imo. (Hopefully self-defense would be a good excuse.) Drei has no problems killing Elen to demoralize Reiji before she gets to him. Also, that killing an ex-Phantom brag rights would kick in too imo.
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Old 2009-08-22, 19:29   Link #1253
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I think Cal doesn't need SM to point her to Ein although he does add oil to the fire. What Cal is feeling is resentment for Reiji for abandoning her and jealousy towards Ein. Imo, she will want neither of them to live.
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Old 2009-08-22, 19:39   Link #1254
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"reji's killing intent/drive" is what basically allowed him to screw up killing scythe master in the first place...his whole "LAWL LAWL IMMA STARE YOU DOWN AND WALK REALLY SLOWLY LAWL ALWL>>>WATCH ME TAAKE 10 MINUTES TO POINT THE GUN AT YOU AND PULL THE TRIGGER SO THAT ELEN CAN JUMP IN FRONT LULZ LULZ LULZ"

yeah...big screw up on reiji's part...this would all of ended well had he actually just been smart enough to just kill SM faster

edit:

oh and i doubt SM wnats reiji back, i'm sure if cal and ellen both die, then there's even more reason for reiji to fuck SM up hard.
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Old 2009-08-22, 20:35   Link #1255
orion
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Originally Posted by miroku2192 View Post
edit:

oh and i doubt SM wnats reiji back, i'm sure if cal and ellen both die, then there's even more reason for reiji to fuck SM up hard.
SM's practically salivating over Reiji imo. I'd bet he'd jump at the chance to get Zwei back.
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Old 2009-08-22, 20:55   Link #1256
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When you heard him commenting on Zwei's wonderful balance of killing intent and composure, you know he's already hiding a boner.
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Old 2009-08-22, 20:57   Link #1257
miroku2192
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Originally Posted by orion View Post
SM's practically salivating over Reiji imo. I'd bet he'd jump at the chance to get Zwei back.
Yes...he desires someone LIKE zwei as much as possible...but he SHOULD know that no matter what, there's no way he can get Reiji back. I mean there should be no way for Zwei to ever forgive SM to work under him again. So if anything, he'd just come and kill SM...but perhaps thats something that SM wouldn't mind either if he can draw this genius back into darkness/ the underground.

You know...like the evil villain who wouldn't mind dying for the sake of dragging someone else who is a genius into the darkness

edit:
@mizuno -> so true so true hahahaha
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Old 2009-08-22, 21:37   Link #1258
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Unlikely seeing how his pants changed from white to brown when Reiji was about to kill him.

He admires Reiji qualities but not Reiji himself.

On another matter, personally i think that Ein is better on average than Zwei and Drei, being those 2 on similar levels, but Reiji has insane overdrives when hes pushed to the limit. Same happens to Drei but to a lesser extent.
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Old 2009-08-22, 21:54   Link #1259
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Im really starting to think that Cal is seriously under estimating Reiji and Elen's prowess. Granted Reiji was confirmed to have a higher potential then Ein but Eins experience imo still keeps her at the forefront she thinks 10 moves ahead in a fight she thinks more ahead then even Reiji does thats a skills that i think Cal is lacking. Cal has had 2 years to train to hon her skills but she still lacks experience and shes too emotional in a fight. If she thinks Rage is going to be the key to taking down Reiji or Elen shes going to learn a lesson the hard way. I dont doubt her skills i doubt her potential to actually use them on an opponent who is as skilled as she is.

I havent played game or anything but I know there were several different endings. which people have leaked out here im hoping they do something rather original in anime.
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Old 2009-08-22, 21:59   Link #1260
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Originally Posted by miroku2192 View Post
Yes...he desires someone LIKE zwei as much as possible...
Yeah, he seems to think if Drei can kill Zwei that she'll gain the control she needs, thus becoming even better overall than Zwei.
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